Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: SouthLondoner123 on September 23, 2023, 12:08:44 am
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Thank you all, but especially thank you to @cp8759 !!
Like I said, I would have hoped the adjudicator would have opined on the unreasonableness of a sign that's so far away and hard to read, and on the need to display the current dates on the council's website (something which the council can do at zero cost).
Instead, the ambiguous statement leads me to think that the same adjudicator would probably not accept a similar challenge today, when it is June 2024 but the website still reports Oct-2023, because he might say that such a discrepancy was sufficient reason to think that the dates on the website were just an example.
It would all be easier and fairer if a law forced councils to state these dates on their website, but then cash-starved councils would no longer be able to count on this confusion for some much-needed extra revenue, right?
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Well done indeed, full outcome here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ESlfAT6giKlN8zDfWEkkm3ewQe5TWYof/view).
This is the first case we've had for an event zone PCN that has been won on this ground, hopefully it will help with future cases.
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Another one bites the dust! I won!!
However, disappointingly:
* the adjudicator did not opine on how appropriate or not it was to place signs with multiple lines of text in a location, outside the train station, where it is impossible to read it safely unless the driver comes to a complete stop for a few seconds
* the adjudicator also said that, if the wrong dates on the website had been in the past rather than in the future, it would have been more acceptable. But surely it is the council's responsibility to ensure their website reports the correct dates all the time??
The adjudicator directs London Borough of Wandsworth to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Adjudicator's Reasons
The agreed facts are that the vehicle was at the stated location and a Penalty Charge Notice was
issued on Saturday 16/09/2023 at 15:22. Restrictions apply from 1:00-8:30 pm on Saturdays if this is
an "event day". The Appellant says the signs nearby did not state this day was an "event day".
A single yellow lines means restrictions apply at some time, and the hours are either set out on
timeplates within the road or, in the case of a CPZ, on all entry points to the zone.
The sign relied on by the Authority is a CPZ sign that says that the next event day is 5.9.16.30
September. The Appellant wrote to the Authority stating that different event days appeared on their
website and has provided a photoshot of one taken on 23/09/2023 that gives the next event day as 12
and 13 October 2023. The Authority says the sign on the website is an example of the type of sign
displayed and so the dates thereon are not relevant.
I do not accept that it is reasonable for driver, who checks the Authority's website, to conclude that the
date stated as 12 and 13 October 2023 is an example only. If checked on 23/09/2023, one would not
expect to see October 2023 dates. Had the dates been in the past, then that is more acceptable.
Thus even if the CPZ sign is correct, the information on the website is misleading to drivers so the
appeal is allowed.
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@cp8759 Would you have any final advice before I submit my appeal to the adjudicator? Thanks!
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I have just received a notice of rejection.
I want to appeal to the adjudicator.
I plan on repeating mostly the same points mentioned until now.
The council says the sign on its website, with the wrong dates, is just an example and the dates there are irrelevant. Why not mention it, then?
Why not put the dates on their website??
(https://i.postimg.cc/sM2jVhR8/Notice-of-rejection-front.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sM2jVhR8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YGFgbPn1/Notice-of-rejection-back.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGFgbPn1)
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Here is The Wandsworth (Controlled Parking Zones) (Wimbledon Stadium Event Days) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1nKjum0L3t89mXBr2HYYqo0M36qggj8FI).
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I see the document dates back to 2002, and AFAIK no event day restrictions were in place then. I searched for the road in question at the end of the document, and there is no mention of event days.
I've checked all amending order I've been sent and none seem to mention event days either, so I've gone back and asked for the event days TMO. They must have made a separate order.
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Here is The Wandsworth (Earlsfield) (Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2002 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1gQFXBR-CJtRzeJDF-CmXMQNmogbYFvDr).
Thank you! However, I'm not sure I am able to interpret it correctly.
I see the document dates back to 2002, and AFAIK no event day restrictions were in place then. I searched for the road in question at the end of the document, and there is no mention of event days.
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Here is The Wandsworth (Earlsfield) (Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2002 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1gQFXBR-CJtRzeJDF-CmXMQNmogbYFvDr).
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Just wait for the notice to owner, it will come in the post.
For clarity you definitely don't want to be sending any notice of appeal anywhere, if it comes to appeal to the tribunal do that online at https://londontribunals.org.uk/
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The website wasn't letting me post the link (it always times out); I am hoping that posting this manually should work
https://i.postimg.cc/7Y8pWLcx/Council-reply-2023-10-21-pdf-Adobe-Acrobat-Reader-64-bit.jpg
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The council has sent me the email below, rejecting my challenge.
I do not wish to pay - I wish to challenge the council; I fully understand that this means I may lose and I may end up paying £110 instead of the £55 I could pay now.
@cp8759, have you by any chance received the Traffic Management Order
I understand the Council will now send a Notice to Owner.
Do I have to do anything before I receive this notice? Will they send it in the post or via email?
Is my understanding of the process, as outlined at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process#nto , correct that:
The council will send a Notice to Owner
I will challenge it by making "formal representations"
The council has 56 days to reply but will reject it by sending e a "notice of rejection"
At that point I can appeal to the adjudicator by sending a Notice of Appeal
Thanks!
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Getting back to this case:
He thinks the inconsistencies between signs and website is irrelevant. Fine. But he hasn't explained why, he hasn't provided,
You parked; you were obliged to read and comply with the sign; the sign indicated that if it was an event day you were parked in contravention.
It was because it was marked by a CPZ gateway sign.
Subsequently, you consulted a website which led you to believe that the traffic sign was inaccurate as it did not convey what was stated on the website.
As far as I know, you do not know what the traffic order provides.
As for the law, TMA provides:
Contraventions relating to parking places in Greater London
2(1)In Greater London there is a parking contravention in relation to a vehicle if the vehicle is stationary in a parking place and—
(a)the vehicle has been left—
(i)otherwise than as authorised by or under any order relating to the parking place.
1) “parking place” means—
(a)a parking place designated by an order made under section 6, 9 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27),
and LATOR provides:
Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force
The 2022 Regs provide:
5.—(1) A penalty charge may be imposed with respect to a vehicle where that vehicle is involved in a relevant road traffic contravention which is committed on or after the commencement date.
(3) In this regulation—
“designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the RTRA 1984;
and..
Evidence of contravention
7.—(1) A penalty charge may only be imposed in respect of a parking contravention on the basis of—
(a)a record produced by an approved device, or
(b)information given by a civil enforcement officer as to conduct observed by that officer.
So that's the authority's position laid out and the CEO's entitlement to demand a penalty based on the evidence available to the CEO.
It's now your opportunity to put your side to the authority and ultimately the keeper to an adjudicator.
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SouthLondoner123 just ignore him. There's at least one scenario where he disagreed with me on a thread (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=130909), I represented the motorist at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal and won (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1j3F5-usOqEk4ZeV4WH8vLjOsB6JaMN5G), and every time that scenario comes up he has the audacity to tell me that the adjudicator got it wrong ::)
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I do not want people to agree with me. Someone who agrees with me but cannot help me challenge the PCN may be comforting but ultimately not much use.
I would, ideally, want people to provide the best information on whether / how to challenge this PCN.
But @ H C Andersen has not been doing that.
He thinks the inconsistencies between signs and website is irrelevant. Fine. But he hasn't explained why, he hasn't provided, I don't know, precedents, previous cases where the adjudicator ruled this way. He hasn't provided any context.
He thinks that kind of sign with 12 lines of text is standard. But, again, he hasn't provided any context, any precedents, anything. Oh, and they're not as standard as he thinks, since I showed a case in which an adjudicator rules that motorists cannot be expected to know where the sign with event days are.
He clearly has poor text comprehension skills, and/or replies without reading everything.
He seemed to think my main argument was the difference between match and event days. Come on...
He thought I was saying I was allowed to park for an hour (I never said that, I just said the website says you can park for no more than 1h during event days).
When I specifically asked how one could possibly be expected to read a sign with 12 lines, and pointed out it would have meant driving for ca. 50 metres at 10mph, all he said was that these signs are common. IMHO, someone who refuses to acknowledge the danger from driving 50 metres with your eyes off the road is either a troll in bad faith or is a genuinely careless and dangerous driver.
And the took offence because I dared say that Wimbledon stadium was a little known venue (a slur, he called it!!!) - as if everyone had to be a football fan, as if folks (of all genders, not all men are football fans) weren't allowed not to follow football.
All of the above is, to me, the behaviour of someone who is needlessly confrontational, aggressive and abrasive.
If he is knowledgeable in the field, well, he most certainly hasn't shown it.
But, even if he is, that would not justify the aggressive style.
I don't think this forum has a mute / block feature, but from now on I shall ignore this type of comments unless they are backed by some information / evidence.
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Which relates to the traffic order, NOT the website which you hadn't read.
I am simply holding up a mirror to your arguments and IMO they fall short.
The signing is standard, fact.
The interpretation put upon the obligation for councils to sign adequately their restrictions is I believe an accurate reflection of ETA's approach.
So you are left with nothing other than your claim that on event/match days the restrictions in the place where you parked are not as indicated on the sign i.e. match days modify the restriction and not just extend the restricted period.
This is for you to establish.
And if you do to the satisfaction of an adjudicator, then what weight would be put on this as regards a defence?
Np point getting irate at posters just because they don't agree with you. This is a forum for expressing and evaluating views, not for simply agreeing with OPs' views. If we did this, then we would be doing you a disservice.
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OP, don't get upset with HCA who can be a bit acerbic, but gives robust posts because you must have your ducks in a row if you're going to succeed, hence questions about your assumptions.
The real point to get across in any representation or appeal, is that even if you could read the sign and understand it all , it still doesn't have the key condition, which is parking restricted to one hour only on event days.
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If, however, you are saying that you are allowed to park for an hour free by virtue of the TMO, then say so and prove it.
I am not. The point was that the website restricts parking during event days to 1 hour only. The sign by the parking bay makes no mention of this. The inconsistency between website and sign is inexcusable.
Your other arguments won't succeed IMO.
Look at the post above. If the council expects motorists to take their eyes off the road for at least 50 metres to read a sign, and the adjudicators agree, it means this country is really... no, I'm not gonna say it, but you can easily guess what I was thinking.
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@ H C Andersen,
are you a genuine poster and not a troll or a council official with a bonus depending on revenues from PCNs????
The fact that signs with many lines of text are common is irrelevant. Badly maintained dangerous roads are common - this doesn't mean they are fine. What is relevant is:
how long does it take to read these signs? (too long)
Is it feasible for drivers to stop and read them safely? (No)
Can they be read safely while passing by? (No). If you instead are in the habit of reading signs with 12 lines of text while driving by, please surrender your licence https://www.gov.uk/giving-up-your-driving-licence and make roads safer - that driving style is criminal.
I timed myself (looking at the static picture) and it took me circa 11 seconds to read the whole sign.
A speed of 10 mph corresponds to 4.4 metres / sec, so at a very slow speed of 10 mph a driver would drive ca. 49 metres while reading the sign.
Surely even you can see how that would be dangerous???
Yes, DVLA details are current.
As for whether I read the website before or after the event, this, too is, IMHO, irrelevant: what is relevant is that it would have been reasonable to look up the council website, and there is no justification for the website and the signs to contain contradicting information on 1) what the event days are and 2) whether one can park for 1 hour only.
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how can a motorist be expected to read a sign with 12 lines of text without stopping?
Often more.
why can it not put a sign with something like "search Wandsworth parking restrictions event days"? Why should they? Their approach is standard.
2) how is it more reasonable to expect a driver drives back there and stops in the middle of the road to read a sign with 12 lines of text? Rather obtuse. This is the same as question 1 and the council's answer will be the same: read them as you pass instead.
3) how can you dismiss the fact that the website presents contradicting information on what the event days are, and what the restrictions are (the website says no parking for more than an hour, the sign doesn't). You didn't read the website until AFTER the event, so it is irrelevant to your case. Had you read before then, as I said, you could argue that you were misled/lack of clarity.If, however, you are saying that you are allowed to park for an hour free by virtue of the TMO, then say so and prove it. Your other arguments won't succeed IMO.
But you've submitted your challenge so just wait for their response.
While waiting, are you the RK and are you DVLA details current?
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You make many valid points, and frankly your core argument may well be enough to win at the tribunal. For now send off your representations and let's see what comes back.
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@ H C Andersen
Not quite. My argument does not rest on the difference between "match day" and "event day" - that is one of the smallest arguments in the whole challenge.
My main points are those I had already mentioned, which I summarise below for clarity:
It is not reasonable to expect that a motorist parks there, checks the council website to see where the sign with event days is, then... does what? Leaves the car there and walks 1.2km back and forth, during which time the motorist can be fined? Or, having learnt where the sign is, drives back north towards the sign, then does a u-turn because the sign can be read only south-bound and... how can a motorist be expected to read a sign with 12 lines of text without stopping? And guess what, there is no stopping there, as it's a busy A road outside the train station. Please look at the sign, time yourself reading it, and tell me if you think a motorist can read that while driving by without stopping.
Yes, I get it, a council cannot update signs with event days on every road, BUT:
1) why can it not put a sign with something like "search Wandsworth parking restrictions event days"?
2) how is it more reasonable to expect a driver drives back there and stops in the middle of the road to read a sign with 12 lines of text?
3) how can you dismiss the fact that the website presents contradicting information on what the event days are, and what the restrictions are (the website says no parking for more than an hour, the sign doesn't)? Surely looking up the council website is sensible - or do you expect motorists to ask for the TMO because "the website is not primary material evidence"?
Lastly, mine was no slur, but a genuine comment. For the record, I am not into football at all, but I do know that Chelsea is a tad more popular than Wimbledon and its stadium a tad more important, yet Hammersmith & Fulham is clearer in its signs, and also does not extend the parking restrictions on event days as far as 2 kms from the stadium - and, again this is for a much better-known stadium in a much more central location which attracts way more people. My point was simply that someone, like me, who doesn't even know how many players there are in a football team, still knows where the Chelsea stadium is, but couldn't figure out what "event day" meant there. My bad. I will contact the DVLA to suggest they include football questions in future versions of the driving tests.
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But the whole point is that the sign does NOT detail the additional controls, but merely states the additional control hours on match days. The restriction on parking to one hour only for paid parking on event days is not shown on any sign
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So, on 16 Sept. you parked in a parking place subject to, inter alia, 'event day' restrictions.
You were issued with a PCN for parking at a restricted time etc.
You have subsequently posted a photo of the CPZ sign you passed which states that 16 Sept.was a 'match day' and details the additional controls which apply. These were replicated on the sign where you parked.
The website is not primary material evidence: a driver must comply with traffic signs and your evidence shows they were in place. In any event, you only 'verified this later' so were not misled by conflicting info at the time.
As regards your challenge, each case turns on its own facts. You have referenced two contradictory decisions-such are the vagaries of adjudication- one based upon signs on CPZ gateway signs being evidence which an adjudicator would take into account(but they weren't convinced they were there) and another where such signs were not deemed sufficient even if present.
The current approach of adjudicators is, I believe, that signs on CPZ signs are acceptable in principle as they represent a practical balance between a council's duty and the logistical and financial burden which signing each parking place individually would present.
At present, your argument seems to hang on the difference between the words 'match days' and 'event days' but you acknowledge not being a total novice in these matters because you reference restrictions around Fulham's ground.
And as for the slur of 'Wimbledon stadium is a minor, if not mostly unknown, football stadium', it's one of the best supported clubs in League 2, or 1 for that matter, and like its predecessor has ambitions! And it's almost impossible to think that millions of people haven't heard of AFC Wimbledon given Alun Armstrong's regular references in 'New Tricks'.
Perhaps the TMO will reveal something.
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@cp8759, that's amazing, thank you so much. Just for my understanding, how does one request a TMO / TRO? Is that something anyone can do, or only councillors / MPs?
Anyone can request to inspect them at the council offices, or you can make a request under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004, which again anyone can do. The reason we tend to request them for people (rather than leaving this to posters who are seeking help) is because experience teaches that there's a specific way you need to word the requests, which will vary from case to case, and if you get it wrong and don't get the right response then you've wasted 20 working days and have to start over, so getting the wording request right is critically important.
Part of the problem is that often the people in receipt of the request have no idea what documents will be relevant, so the request has to be worded in a very precise way.
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@cp8759, that's amazing, thank you so much. Just for my understanding, how does one request a TMO / TRO? Is that something anyone can do, or only councillors / MPs?
I have submitted my challenge with the text below. Fingers crossed on next steps
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I believe your PCN is invalid for a multitude of reasons:
1) As pointed out in case 2170158069 at the London Tribunals, which found the signage inadequate: “The time plate for this bay does not provide motorists with any information about event days. It does not refer the motorist to CPZ signs or to the website for details of event days. A motorist parking in a shared use bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of event days.” This was an appeal registered on 4/4/2017 and allowed against the London Borough of Newman, as can be seen at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals . As per your pictures, the sign makes no mention of what is an event day, nor where to find that information, so this PCN is as invalid as that of case 2170158069.
2) I later found this page on your website https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/. The website mentions that, on event days, one can park for one hour only. The sign makes no mention of this. This inconsistency alone makes the sign, and my PCN, invalid.
3) The website mentioned 12 and 13 Oct 2023 as next event days. The sign (which I later located to be very far away, see below) mentioned 5,9,16,30 September. This inconsistency alone makes the PCN invalid. Please note I have a time-stamped video recording of your website, should this be somehow changed after my challenge.
4) I later learnt from your website that the sign should have been located outside Earlsfield station as Weybourne street is in the L2 zone. Why did you place a sign about 600 metres away, outside a busy station? A motorist parking there should be expected… to do what, exactly? To leave the car there, check on your website where the sign should be, walk circa 1.2 kilometres (what if they have little kids?) during which time they can still be fined by an overzealous parking warden, to check the sign outside a train station? Or maybe drive there to check the sign, but, wait, it’s rightly impossible to park next to the train station, so should they maybe block the traffic till they locate and read the entire sign? Not to mention the sign is only visible driving southbound, so someone driving from Weybourne street would need to drive north beyond the sign, then do a u-turn to head back south! I cycled past that sign and have recorded footage with a dashcam: it contains 12 lines of text; it can be read ONLY by a motorist who knows where it is AND who happens to be stationary at a red light – there is NO realistic way to read it safely and properly otherwise. If every motorist stopped to read it, on an A road outside a train station, it would be chaos.
5) I appreciate that repeating the event day sign on every street is expensive and cumbersome, but the location you have choses is quite simply hideous. There is no way for motorists to read it properly and safely (see above). You could simply have a sign which refers to a section of your website. But that wouldn’t allow you to catch out as many motorists and wouldn’t produce the ca. £8m in PCN revenues Wandsworth enjoys every year, right?
6) Wimbledon stadium is a minor, if not mostly unknown, football stadium more than a kilometre away. It is unreasonable to expect motorists to know that “event day” refers to events in that little known venue. Why not call it “match day”, like most councils do? Why not make a reference to Wimbledon stadium in the sign itself? “Event day” made me think of Tennis at Wimbledon.
7) Lastly, even if providing a sign about event days in a location far away were adequate (it is not), I note you have not provided photographic evidence that a sign warning about the event day was, in fact, in place at the entrance to the CPZ. I verified a sign was there the following week, not on the day of the alleged contravention. I trust you will appreciate that photographic evidence is needed, and that a simple, unsubstantiated statement that the sign was there will, in fact, be insufficient. Failure to provide such evidence was the reason appeal 2160382372 was allowed on 9/9/2016 against the London Borough of Newman.
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In London it's called a Traffic Management Order, and outside London it's a Traffic Regulation Order, but for all practical purposes it's the same thing. I have requested the traffic order, but it could take up to 23 October to get it back.
However if you submit your representation, we should have the traffic order by the time you get a response.
For now what you've drafted is fine, the truth of the matter is the council will reject anything you say but at the Notice to Owner stage, we should have the traffic order and can use that to construct the formal representations.
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Are TROs and TMOs the same thing?
Where would I find the related TRO/TMO?
The council publishes this: https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/road-safety/traffic-management-orders-tmos/
but I can't seem to find one related to the street where I parked.
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Looking at the website, the additional controls would seem to restrict paid parking on event days to one hour only between the hours given on the sign. Surely this the key issue is that the one hour restriction should be on the sign ! Signs must reflect the TRO governing the parking arrangements at the bay they control; but here they don't.
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I went back and found this sign outside the station:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPYsFd4X/event-day-sign-Garratt-lane.png) (https://postimg.cc/bZWL2hP6)
This mentions 5,9,16,30 September
HOWEVER
The Wandsworth website mentions 12 and 13 Oct 2023 (I had posted the image already, reposting here for simplicity):
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjKvdbFL/afc-event-days-3.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I would argue that:
The fact that the information on the website contradicts the sign should, by itself, be reason enough to cancel the PCN!!!!!
A motorist can read that sign properly ONLY if they know where it is, AND if the traffic light happens to be red. Otherwise, it is simply impossible to read 12 lines of text while driving by, impossible. Time how long it takes you to read those 12 lines of text, and imagine if even only 1/3 of the drivers passing through there stopped, on an A road outside a train station, to read that - it would be chaos.
I cycled past with a dashcam; I could not read the whole sign while cycling. At home I watched the footage again - no chance of reading all of it. And this was at slower bicycle speeds.
Oh, and if someone parked where I parked were to drive back there to check the sign, they wouldn't see it going from south to north, they would need to do a u-turn at some point and go back south-bound. Mental.
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The correct link to the Wandsworth website is: https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/
The street is in zone L2. The website says the sign is located at:
L2 Garratt Lane/Magdalen Road – Outside Earlsfield Station
This is about 600 metres (not 1 km, my bad) away from where the car was parked, and is outside a train station
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tw1vnDyy/earlsfield-map.png) (https://postimg.cc/B8rz0tBs)
According to the website (link above), the council supposedly places signs like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjKvdbFL/afc-event-days-3.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This picture is on the website linked above, it's not a picture taken from the street.
I have browsed around with google maps but I cannot actually find the sign.
Garrat Lane outside the station is an A road and, understandably, there is no parking there at all, so there would be no pay and display sign.
At the moment, the Wandsworth website says next events 12 and 13 October, but according to this it should be 30 Sep, 14 Oct and 24 Oct 2023!!!???
With street view I found this sign on Magdalene road (dated Jul 2022), but there is no sign of when the event day is.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0MdTS4N/magdalene-rd-sign.png) (https://postimg.cc/wy45mgQ3)
I will try to go in person and see what I can find. If I don't find anything I will make a video (to show the sign is either not there or very hard to find) and use that in my challenge.
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I gwt "404 page not found" if I click on your link to the Wandsworth website.
We really do need to see this sign by the station. Will a GSV view show it ?
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I have drafted the following for my challenge. I haven't submitted it yet, as I would welcome feedback from the forum first
Dear Sir or Madam,
I believe your PCN is invalid for the following reasons:
1) As pointed out in case 2170158069 at the London Tribunals, which found the signage inadequate: “The time plate for this bay does not provide motorists with any information about event days. It does not refer the motorist to CPZ signs or to the website for details of event days. A motorist parking in a shared use bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of event days.” This was an appeal registered on 4/4/2017 and allowed against the London Borough of Newman, as can be seen at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
2) Wimbledon stadium is a minor, if not mostly unknown, football stadium more than a kilometre away. It is unreasonable to expect motorists to know that “event day” refers to events in that little known venue. Why not call it “match day”, like most councils do? Why not make a reference to Wimbledon stadium in the sign itself? “Event day” made me think of Tennis at Wimbledon.
3) I later verified on your website https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/ that the sign should have been located outside Earlsfield station as Weybourne street is in the L2 zone. Why did you place a sign about one kilometre away, outside a busy station? A motorist parking there should be expected… to do what, exactly? To leave the car there, check on your website where the sign should be, walk circa 2 kilometres (what if they have little kids?) during which time they can still be fined by an overzealous parking warden, to check the sign outside a train station? Or maybe drive there to check the sign, but, wait, it’s rightly impossible to park next to the train station, so should they maybe block the traffic till they locate and read the entire sign? If every motorist did that, it would be chaos. Surely you see how nonsensical that would be?
4) Lastly, even if providing a sign about event days in a location far away were adequate (it is not), I note you have not provided photographic evidence that a sign warning about the event day was, in fact, in place at the entrance to the CPZ. I trust you will appreciate that photographic evidence is needed, and that a simple, unsubstantiated statement that the sign was there will, in fact, be insufficient. Failure to provide such evidence was the reason appeal 2160382372 was allowed on 9/9/2016 against the London Borough of Newman.
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I received a PCN for parking in Weybourne street, London Borough of Wandsworth
This is the google maps link https://maps.app.goo.gl/XkycVgcVhTD8x5Q1A
The Wimbledon stadium is ca. 0.7 miles from there. There are "event day parking restrictions".
One thing I found confusing is the wording: e.g. Fulham calls it "match day restrictions" but "event day" makes me think of some other kind of event.
Anyway, there was no warning nearby about what kind of event they were referring to, and it wasn't clear to me at the time they were talking about football matches - otherwise a quick google search would have confirmed that the day in question was a match day.
Can I challenge the PCN because:
1) the council has not proven they had warned the day was an event day (an appeal was won on this basis, see below)
2) according to their website, the sign should have been placed 600 metres away, and it's not reasonable to expect folks to check the council website, identify where the signs should have been placed, then walk or drive there just to check ? An appeal was won (see below) because A motorist parking in a shared use bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of event days.
Any advice would be most appreciated!
The front and rear of the PCNs are:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCSKBv27/PCN-front.png) (https://postimg.cc/1gJnqN4c)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDhfVsTn/PCN-rear.png) (https://postimg.cc/nMHxWwRz)
The sign was
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xzQJ2xP/Sign.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I found this page explaining the council rules:
https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parki...y-restrictions/
The road in question is part of the L2 zone. Coming from north of the river, the closest sign should have been between Garratt Lane and Magdalene road.
This is about 600 metres away , but it is by the Earlsfield train station, so it's impossible to park there, and I would argue it would not be very reasonable to expect people to either walk 600 metres to check the signs, or drive back next to a busy station in the hope of finding the sign (should one just stop to read holding the traffic?)
Searching this forum I have found the following cases which might be relevant:
I can't post direct links, but one can go here
https://londontribunals.org.uk/ -> view statutory registers -> environment and traffic -> search
and search for the case number
case 2170158069 The time plate for this bay does not provide motorists with any information about event days. It does not refer the motorist to CPZ signs or to the website for details of event days. A motorist parking in a shared use bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of event days.
[...]
I therefore find that the signage was not adequate and I allow the appeal for that reason.
case 2160382372 I find that the Authority has not proved that on 4 June 2016 there were actually Controlled Parking Zone signs with the date of the event on the 4 June 2016 recorded on the lower panel.
Third, I find that the Authority should have produced stronger evidence that supports their case, which is that there are sufficient Controlled Parking signs at the entry points
Fourth, I have found the Appellant's evidence to be stronger than that of the Authority's.
Taking these matters together I find that this contravention is not proved.
The appeal is allowed.