Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: LizardKingB on September 22, 2023, 06:58:52 pm
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Luke Moran v Secretary of State for Transport (IA01249-1803, 13 June 2018) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=196wgUERzYDuZjwM9IEFYQwN0jD_jlcDD).
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The PCN is unlawful because it adds on the unpaid RUC charge. There is no power to do this in Regulation 7 of the RUC regulations.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/7/made
Also stated by Caroline Shepard in an adjudication concerning DART in 2018.
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Send that off and let's see what they say.
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Can you be liable for plagiarism in this instance? Or is it possible for me to use this exactly as it's stated?
"Dear Bristol City Council,
I challenge liability for PCN ........... on the basis that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.
The PCN carries an 0870 premium rate telephone number, and I contend that as in Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) this amounts to an excessive demand. While I appreciate other payment methods are available, binding authority from the High Court in the case of London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) determined that where one payment method carries a surcharge, the availability of other payment methods is irrelevant and the penalty demanded is excessive.
It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,"
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As time is marching on, I think it's time LizardKing drafted reps based on advice in Reply#14 and posted them here for comment, so the experts can add any extra points.
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On the map that you've sent, the 2 zones you've marked out are the areas in which I entered the Clean Air Zone.
I do not know Bristol very well I'm afraid. It may have been well sign posted or not, either way I didn't notice or know.
OK.
I'm not sure the link I gave to the detailed plan of the CAZ is working properly(?) but regarding Newfoundland Circus, I think there is advanced warning here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4609984,-2.5812531,3a,15y,191.66h,96.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGqMTPGQL6Sm4Pd89SHX7Gw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
and I think you must have entered the zone here, when you passed this sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4607526,-2.58179,3a,15y,218.62h,91.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEmVe4vBges5izvwUKlpXJg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Whether that signage would be considered sufficient or not I don't know - I'm no expert. I can certainly understand that if you are on a very busy road in an unfamiliar city then they'd be easy to miss
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On the map that you've sent, the 2 zones you've marked out are the areas in which I entered the Clean Air Zone.
I do not know Bristol very well I'm afraid. It may have been well sign posted or not, either way I didn't notice or know.
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The link I sent is where I remember being in the zone, it might not be exactly where I entered it but it's on that road. I am actually unsure on where the 2nd place I entered is
OK. You may not have read my post from yesterday, but for the first ticket you must have entered the CAZ here (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4572277,-2.6293299,3a,75y,159.57h,83.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scMtQRG8Ns_EGVwz3FMHMtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu ) only a couple of hundred yards or so before the link you gave.
Am I right? The signage appears to be quite clear...(?)
Regarding the Newfoundland Circus ticket, this is a plan of the CAZ. I don't know how familiar you are with Bristol, but it might help the experts on here if you could point out where you think you must have entered the CAZ. https://www.cleanairforbristol.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Small-CAZ-D-Final-2021.pdf
(Just to clarify - I don't know Bristol at all and I'm certainly not an expert on parking tickets!)
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The link I sent is where I remember being in the zone, it might not be exactly where I entered it but it's on that road. I am actually unsure on where the 2nd place I entered is
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Yes this is correct
Sorry - but what is correct?
The link you originally gave re the A4, or the link I suggested?
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Yes this is correct
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@ManxTom I think you're right, and yes your links have worked. We need @LizardKingB to come back and confirm.
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Are you sure? Both the GSV links show images that post-date the start of the zone (which seems to be November last year), but I can't see any CAZ signs at all?
Obviously if that really is where you entered the zone and there really are no signs then it's an easy appeal, but it seems far too good to be true.
I think the first link given by the OP is inaccurate. I think he had already entered the CAZ here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4572277,-2.6293299,3a,75y,159.57h,83.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scMtQRG8Ns_EGVwz3FMHMtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The CAZ is a rather peculiar shape around there... https://www.cleanairforbristol.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Small-CAZ-D-Final-2021.pdf [Edit1: Although if the OP was headed south along the A4 and turned left to Clifton Down along the A4176, he should have avoided the CAZ according to the plan]
I haven't looked at the second link.
[Edit2: Have the two links I've given worked?]
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Are you sure? Both the GSV links show images that post-date the start of the zone (which seems to be November last year), but I can't see any CAZ signs at all?
Obviously if that really is where you entered the zone and there really are no signs then it's an easy appeal, but it seems far too good to be true.
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A4
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2hVs4WmNEyTjDFGX7
Newfoundland Circus
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Po93aaLXXZyWpJiPA
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Can you please give us a google street view link to the exact location?
Not a screenshot or a link to a screenshot, a link to the actual google street view page.
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A little hard to explain but I came in right by Observatory Hill on Hotwell Road (A4) and came off almost immediately towards Clifton Down. That goes for 2 of the PCNs and the 3rd I came through the centre of Bristol on NewFoundland Circus for approx 5 mins.
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Can you tell us exactly where you entered the zone?
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Hi, I have checked my location history and the Clean Air Zone map and I was within the zone for about a minute each time.
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Can you work out exactly where you entered the zone?
Your phone's location history might help you establish this.
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0870 still there...
See if others can spot anything else...
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Of course, this link should take you to all 4 photos: https://imgur.com/a/SJ0P4Lj
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OK, feel for you...
So, you know the drill. Please post all sides of the paperwork, so the small print can be checked.
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I've actually just received another PCN. This is crazy, I wish I'd known about this clean air zone :( a real great way to ruin the day
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Okay, I understand, I appreciate the help. Let me know if I can be of any assistance
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What do we think?
Well you can definitely use this https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/bristol-clean-air-zone-pcn-17j-a4-ring-road-hotwell-road-(caz0001)-(route-to-bri/msg974/#msg974 but we're having an internal discussion around whether there's an additional argument.
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Can you see anywhere on the pcn where it tells you the period in which to pay the full £120 penalty (+ £9 charge)?
Doesn't the second bullet point in the yellow box at the bottom of page 1 cover that? I accept it doesn't say explicitly what the 28 day period is, but the PCN must be read as a whole and I think most adjudicators would accept that an appellant would understand they have to either pay or make representations before the end of 28 days from the date of service.
But it doesn't say what the 28 day limit is?
But the bullet point immediately below does?
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What do we think?
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Can you see anywhere on the pcn where it tells you the period in which to pay the full £120 penalty (+ £9 charge)?
Doesn't the second bullet point in the yellow box at the bottom of page 1 cover that? I accept it doesn't say explicitly what the 28 day period is, but the PCN must be read as a whole and I think most adjudicators would accept that an appellant would understand they have to either pay or make representations before the end of 28 days from the date of service.
But it doesn't say what the 28 day limit is?
If anything, the first comment on the second page might cover it.
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Can you see anywhere on the pcn where it tells you the period in which to pay the full £120 penalty (+ £9 charge)?
Doesn't the second bullet point in the yellow box at the bottom of page 1 cover that? I accept it doesn't say explicitly what the 28 day period is, but the PCN must be read as a whole and I think most adjudicators would accept that an appellant would understand they have to either pay or make representations before the end of 28 days from the date of service.
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Can you see anywhere on the pcn where it tells you the period in which to pay the full £120 penalty (+ £9 charge)?
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Sorry, I didn't realise it was already there.
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If you click this link it will take you to the full PCN (you just need to scroll down):
https://imgur.com/a/sLWuCHt
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Can you post the rest of the PCN please.
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Right, I see. Does this make a difference for chances to appeal?
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Not two zones - 2 separate days in the zone.
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https://imgur.com/a/9lsoPZe
https://imgur.com/a/9lsoPZe
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https://imgur.com/a/sLWuCHt
This should show the other side.
Number is 0870 7077776
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Need to see all sides of both PCNs.
What is the telephone number for payment?
Can only see one zone?
https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/streets-travel/bristols-caz/view-a-map
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Hi there,
I have had a little poke around on the forums and have seen how people have been appealing these charges but I just wanted some personal advice.
Received 2 PCN today for driving through 2 different Clean Air Zones. Like many others I had no idea Bristol even had low emission zones. I didn't see any sign posts or prompts to pay any charges.
Hopefully, you can see the attachments clearly.
Any advice for appealing would be greatly appreciated as I cannot afford 2 £69 fines.
Images below:
(https://i.imgur.com/grPlbsp.jpeg)