Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: gunnapr on April 05, 2025, 12:15:31 pm
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WQ4jERtseJ1orRtFI-hzOd9Sjlw2zPb6/view).
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Delivering is not sufficient. The second condition is equally important. And as you probably realise, while the first part could be proved objectively the latter would likely not because no-one took photos or made notes of the situation in the area as regards other places to park.
You can advance your claim that 'delivery could not ........', but tobe blunt it's a long shot and IMO, you should be aware that winning at adjudication against this contravention using the 'delivery' exemption is very difficult.
But perhaps a council procedural c**k-up might win the day for you.
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OP, just to remind you of the exemption:
5)The fourth exception is where—
(a)the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,
(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1),
The driver also has to prove to the satisfaction of the adjudicator(I think it's reasonable to assume that the council would reject) that delivering could not reasonably have been carried out with the vehicle parked elsewhere.
But if this got to adjudication procedural matters would also come into play anyway.
Will the letter from the scrap yard not enough to prove that vehicle is parked for delivering stuff?
Also the road side car park was full and that the only place available to park for short time.
Thanks
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OP, just to remind you of the exemption:
5)The fourth exception is where—
(a)the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,
(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1),
The driver also has to prove to the satisfaction of the adjudicator(I think it's reasonable to assume that the council would reject) that delivering could not reasonably have been carried out with the vehicle parked elsewhere.
But if this got to adjudication procedural matters would also come into play anyway.
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I'm going to PM you so we can arrange this.
Thank you appreciate it.
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I'm going to PM you so we can arrange this.
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He will need to provided it to you and you will need to provide it to the council with your representation.
Thanks CP,
I will ask him to do that, can you please help in drafting the letter so i can ask him to sign?
Regard
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He will need to provided it to you and you will need to provide it to the council with your representation.
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i can ask him about witness statement but the only problem his business doesnt know that he is taking my stuff.
Well a wittiness statement from him is the bare minimum you would need. It's not exactly very likely that the business owners are going to be checking random tribunal decisions to check if any of the employees have given a statement.
Thanks,
Ok will he need to sign the document and post it to council? or i need to include this in my representation to the council. Also will at any stage required to attend the tribunal to give statement?
I can ask him and see id he is ok to give witness statement.
Regards
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i can ask him about witness statement but the only problem his business doesnt know that he is taking my stuff.
Well a wittiness statement from him is the bare minimum you would need. It's not exactly very likely that the business owners are going to be checking random tribunal decisions to check if any of the employees have given a statement.
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Does this guy own the business or does he just work there?
Can he sign a witness statement if we help you draft it?
Hi CP,
Guy just works there and i know him so he said he got van which is half empty and its going to disposal site and asked me if i can bring my old crap so he will put them in all in the same van and take it.
i can ask him about witness statement but the only problem his business doesnt know that he is taking my stuff.
Thanks
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Does this guy own the business or does he just work there?
Can he sign a witness statement if we help you draft it?
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So did you pay the company to dispose of those items, and if so do you have a receipt?
No i didnt paid for this, normally you have to pay so they come and collect the waste but i know the guy and he said he got a disposal van with stuff he is going to take it for disposal and said if i can bring the old crap so he will put them in together as the van got some space. so i drove over there and dropped my stuff in the van.
Regards
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So did you pay the company to dispose of those items, and if so do you have a receipt?
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@gunnapr let's start with the basics, what was being unloaded, and where is the address that the item or items were being unloaded to in relation to where the car was parked?
Also if you're the person who was receiving the items, how has the PCN come to your attention in the first place?
Please post the NTO without redacting anything aside from name and address. The deadline for representations to be received by the council is 30 April so it's not as if you're going to run out of time this week, and it's better to take a bit of time putting a solid argument together. Do not send something off in a mad rush as you won't get another chance.
Lastly "some stuff the business on the same street brought" is largely meaningless, can you rephrase this please?
Hi CP,
Thanks for the reply.
I been delivering/disposing some old crap items that left in my house and the address is Waste On Wheels Northwestern street next to where the car is parked and im the driver at that time and also the owner. When i came back to the vehicle thats when i noticed the PCN.
Please see full NTO - https://imgur.com/a/L3gWjqf
Regards
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@gunnapr let's start with the basics, what was being unloaded, and where is the address that the item or items were being unloaded to in relation to where the car was parked?
Also if you're the person who was receiving the items, how has the PCN come to your attention in the first place?
Please post the NTO without redacting anything aside from name and address. The deadline for representations to be received by the council is 30 April so it's not as if you're going to run out of time this week, and it's better to take a bit of time putting a solid argument together. Do not send something off in a mad rush as you won't get another chance.
Lastly "some stuff the business on the same street brought" is largely meaningless, can you rephrase this please?
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Thanks,
yes, im the addressee in this case.
Regarding delivery, its not like driver is a registered delivery guy like DHL, RM etc just dropping off some stuff the business on the same street brought.
Please let me know if you need more info. I think im running late to make representation with the council.
Thanks.
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Thanks.
Thanks.
I'll look at the NTO on which point pl repost deleting only the recipient's name and address.
Pl confirm that the addressee is you because only the addressee may make formal reps.
As regards reps, what hard evidence is there regarding the delivery?
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'Initial appeal was rejected....'.
I can't follow what's being posted.
What exactly did you submit and what was their reply, which would have been in writing?
Pl read the READ THIS FIRST.. item at the top of the forum's first page and post documents, not extracts, pl.
Hi,@cp8759
Initial appeal was driver was doing a quick delivery on this street and parked the car for only 5 mins by the time driver was back PCN was issued.
Council rejected saying below -
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE (PCN)
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions
(Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022
Penalty Charge Notice Number: QM00184649
Date given: 21/02/2025 at 15:23
Place given: Hoyle Street
Vehicle registration: YA63OKK
Thank you for your enquiry, which we received on 23 February 2025.
You were given a PCN for parking adjacent to a dropped footway. A dropped footway is
where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to facilitate easy access, including
assisting wheelchair users, and other pedestrians.
Dropped footways do not require signs or lines and any vehicle parking alongside a dropped
footway is liable to receive a PCN and; where appropriate, the vehicle may be removed
incurring further charges.
You have stated that I were loading and do not feel you were causing any obstruction,
however in this instance there is no exemption for loading. Dropped footways, as per the
Highway Code, must be left clear at all times.
I have carefully considered your case and I am satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly,
and as such, I have taken the decision not to cancel it.
To view images taken at the time your PCN was issued, please visit
www.manchester.gov.uk/parking
You have these choices:
1. The PCN will be reduced to £35.00 if it is paid within 14 days from the date this letter was
served.
2. If you do not pay the PCN within 14 days of this letter being served, the charge will
increase to £70.00.
3. If the PCN is not paid or successfully challenged, the Council may serve a Notice to Owner
(NtO) after 28 days of the PCN being served on the owner of the vehicle requiring payment of
the full PCN. The owner can then make representations to the Council and may appeal to an
independent adjudicator if those representations are rejected. The NtO will contain
instructions for doing this".
Here is the full letter from council - https://imgur.com/a/pfKWPC2
Thanks
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'Initial appeal was rejected....'.
I can't follow what's being posted.
What exactly did you submit and what was their reply, which would have been in writing?
Pl read the READ THIS FIRST.. item at the top of the forum's first page and post documents, not extracts, pl.
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The initial reps pl and their reply.
Thank you.
Below is what i included in my representation
"Hi,
initial appeal was rejected on the grounds stating that "PCN was given for parking adjacent to a dropped footway. A dropped footway is
where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to facilitate easy access, including
assisting wheelchair users, and other pedestrians".
However according to Traffic Management Act 2004 section 86 states that if there is an exception if the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes in this case driver of the vehicle left the place after 5 mins.
Please see legislation here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86
(5)The fourth exception is where—
(a)the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,
(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c)the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes".
Please check and let me know if the above representation is ok to submit.
Thanks in advance.
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The initial reps pl and their reply.
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That's not the point.
They are required to consider your reps[in respect of one of the most appalling bits of parking I've seen here for some time,...but my views are not germane] against the correct legal framework.
And if they reject based upon their misapplication of the law then prima facie this is a procedural impropriety which is grounds of appeal itself.
Anyway, hard facts pl:
The formal reps;
Their NOR.
Please.
Thanks for the reply.
I am presenting a representation to Manchester city council so please if you can guide what points i need to include in my representation that would be helpful.
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That's not the point.
They are required to consider your reps[in respect of one of the most appalling bits of parking I've seen here for some time,...but my views are not germane] against the correct legal framework.
And if they reject based upon their misapplication of the law then prima facie this is a procedural impropriety which is grounds of appeal itself.
Anyway, hard facts pl:
The formal reps;
Their NOR.
Please.
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Hi,
Can i use the below fourth exception on my representation to NTO?
"(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c)the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.".
Regards
Thanks,
Council rejected my representation initially saying its a dropped footway...
"You were given a PCN for parking adjacent to a dropped footway. A dropped footway is
where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to facilitate easy access, including
assisting wheelchair users, and other pedestrians.
Dropped footways do not require signs or lines and any vehicle parking alongside a dropped
footway is liable to receive a PCN and; where appropriate, the vehicle may be removed
incurring further charges.
You have stated that I were loading and do not feel you were causing any obstruction,
however in this instance there is no exemption for loading. Dropped footways, as per the
Highway Code, must be left clear at all times.".
Can i use the below fourth exception on my representation to NTO?
"(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c)the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.".
Regards
[/quote]
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I don't see any argument for mitigation.
Either it's a 'dropped footway' as defined(https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86) or it isn't.
If it isn't, then no contravention.
If it is then the only exception which might apply is this:
(5)The fourth exception is where—
(a)the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,
(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c)the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.
And OP, it's the keeper's burden to prove their entitlement.
It's not mitigation, it's an exception - if it applies.
Thanks,
Council rejected my representation initially saying its a dropped footway...
"You were given a PCN for parking adjacent to a dropped footway. A dropped footway is
where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to facilitate easy access, including
assisting wheelchair users, and other pedestrians.
Dropped footways do not require signs or lines and any vehicle parking alongside a dropped
footway is liable to receive a PCN and; where appropriate, the vehicle may be removed
incurring further charges.
You have stated that I were loading and do not feel you were causing any obstruction,
however in this instance there is no exemption for loading. Dropped footways, as per the
Highway Code, must be left clear at all times.".
Can i use the below fourth exception on my representation to NTO?
"(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c)the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.".
Regards
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I don't see any argument for mitigation.
Either it's a 'dropped footway' as defined(https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86) or it isn't.
If it isn't, then no contravention.
If it is then the only exception which might apply is this:
(5)The fourth exception is where—
(a)the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,
(b)the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c)the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.
And OP, it's the keeper's burden to prove their entitlement.
It's not mitigation, it's an exception - if it applies.
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Hi John,
date of the NtO - 01/04/2025.
PCN served on 21/02/2025.
Yes, i have seen lots of cars parked on both ends of the kerbs.
Thanks
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You've over redacted - should be name & address only - including the date of the NtO - which is?
That said. I did look to see is the opposite kerb was also dropped - it was.
But on almost every historic GSV back to 2008 there is a vehicle parked on one or both DKs, usually both, which gives rise to the possibility of 'legitimate expectation'. However, don't hold yr hopes too high.
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Hi John,
Please see full NTO letter.
https://imgur.com/a/HwmnGld
Regards
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Please post up all sides of the NtO - redact yr name & address only .
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Hi,
I have received the NTO letter from council asking to pay £70.
I have given an option to make representation to Manchester city council either in writing or form. On what basis i can make representations please? i will submit it online.
Thank you.
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Thanks for the advise.
I will wait for the NTO and let you known here. On what basis i can submit reps to NTO?
As already discussed here, but do be aware that the discount is lost atthe Notice to Owner stage. However, many councils do re-offer it to save themselves the hassle of having to prepare an evidence pack for the adjudicators. This is because if the discount is not r-offered, it becomes a total no-brainer for the appellant to take them to adjudication because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. Make them do at least some work for their money !
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Thanks for the advise.
I will wait for the NTO and let you known here. On what basis i can submit reps to NTO?
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Well, I have to say that it looks as if both corners here are droppped. Here is an earlier GSV view showing this: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7ZRoBvkesbepn5Cg7
Being parked for only 5 minutes and on a delivery is not a reason for cancellation, it comes under mitigation as I said before. If you want to fight this, you have the right to do so, provided you are the vehicle owner and hold the V5C Registration Certificate with your name and address on it. You can wait for the Notice to Owner, submit reps to that, and when rejected, register an appeal with the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The downside is you have to risk the full PCN penalty. No discount option.
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Please post a GSV Streetview link to the location, so we can see what is there without the car there. At the moment, your narrative gives a mitigation argument, which they almost always reject, (like 95%).
[/quote]
Please see the google street view -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7vPfraapeUrNqFud9
Its exactly where the Honda parked in the google street view.
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Attached pics from the parking spot.
https://imgur.com/a/cqjGURw
Is there anyway driver can fight this? Driver only parked there for 5 mins and left after delivering stuff.
Please post a GSV Streetview link to the location, so we can see what is there without the car there. At the moment, your narrative gives a mitigation argument, which they almost always reject, (like 95%).
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Attached pics from the parking spot.
https://imgur.com/a/cqjGURw
Is there anyway driver can fight this? Driver only parked there for 5 mins and left after delivering stuff.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi,
Driver received PCN for parking for 5 mins on the footpath, driver delivering stuff to the business next door on the street.
PCN reason - "who had the reason to believe that following contravention had occurred and that penalty charge is now payable: 27 Parked adjacent to a dropped footway".
Appealed with council they rejected saying below reasons -
"You were given a PCN for parking adjacent to a dropped footway. A dropped footway is
where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to facilitate easy access, including
assisting wheelchair users, and other pedestrians.
Dropped footways do not require signs or lines and any vehicle parking alongside a dropped
footway is liable to receive a PCN and; where appropriate, the vehicle may be removed
incurring further charges.
You have stated that I were loading and do not feel you were causing any obstruction,
however in this instance there is no exemption for loading. Dropped footways, as per the
Highway Code, must be left clear at all times.
I have carefully considered your case and I am satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly,
and as such, I have taken the decision not to cancel it".
Pics -