Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Brosmith on April 01, 2025, 05:26:12 pm
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Start your own thread please...forum rules.
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The starting point is to recognise that liability for a penalty charge notice issued under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 arises once the enforcement authority serves a penalty charge notice by post to the name and address of the registered keeper as provided by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency pursuant to section 7 of that Act and paragraph 2 of Schedule 1. Service is deemed to occur two working days after posting unless the contrary is proved. The process thereafter is prescribed in statute and the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) Regulations 2022, namely the issue of a charge certificate increasing the penalty by fifty per cent, the making of an order for recovery under regulation 23, and the subsequent authorisation of a warrant of control through the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court under regulation 28.
On the facts as presented, the contravention occurred on 3 May 2024, and the V5C registration document was updated by the DVLA on 9 May 2024. The key question is when the notification to the DVLA was actually made and whether it preceded the date of contravention. If it did, documentary proof such as the DVLA confirmation email or contemporaneous evidence of posting will be central to any application to set aside the warrant and revert the matter to the original penalty stage. The correct procedural route is to file a statutory declaration out of time under Part 75 of the Civil Procedure Rules and regulation 23 of the 2022 Regulations, using forms PE2 and PE3. The PE3 sets out the statutory ground that the penalty charge notice was not received. The PE2 explains why the application is made after the expiry of the prescribed time. The Traffic Enforcement Centre exercises discretion on whether to allow the application, and if refused there is a right of review before a District Judge upon payment of a fee.
It is essential to note that the enforcement authority is entitled to rely on the address provided by the DVLA at the date of contravention and is under no duty to recheck the address unless the warrant is to be reissued under CPR 75.7(7) following a return of "gone away" or similar. In this case, the fact that Marston's agents sent notices to the former address as late as November 2024 suggests either that the warrant had not been re-sealed or that the enforcement address had not been updated. This does not, however, invalidate the underlying penalty if the initial service was deemed effective under the statute. The correct approach is to challenge the enforcement on the basis of non-receipt caused by the address change and DVLA processing delay, not to attack the bailiff for behaviour that, whilst perhaps discourteous, is largely irrelevant to the court's determination of the underlying liability.
Pending determination of the out of time application, there is a real risk that enforcement will proceed under Schedule 12 to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. Under paragraph 18 of that Schedule, the enforcement agent may take control of goods on a public highway by immobilisation or removal. This power exists even if the warrant address is incorrect, provided the vehicle is identified as belonging to the judgment debtor. Accordingly, there are two immediate tactical options. First, to file the PE2 and PE3 without delay, accompanied by any proof of the date DVLA was notified, proof of moving dates, and a concise chronology explaining the lack of receipt. Secondly, to request the enforcement authority or its agents to place enforcement on hold for at least 14 days pending the TEC's decision. Such a request should be made in writing to Hackney Council's parking services, not merely to the bailiffs, as only the council can instruct its agents to suspend action.
The suggestion from some quarters that payment now will cap the liability is correct in the sense that paying the compliance stage sum of £280 would prevent the addition of the £235 enforcement stage fee under the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. If the out of time application then succeeds, that sum would be refunded. However, there is a countervailing tactical risk that payment will be treated administratively as acceptance of liability, and unless the application is properly framed it may prejudice the equitable exercise of discretion by the court. This risk is mitigated if payment is expressly made "without prejudice" to the right to recover upon successful application.
In practical terms, the most effective strategy is to prepare and submit the PE2 and PE3 immediately, supported by a sworn witness statement setting out the dates of the address change, the method and date of notification to DVLA, the absence of any mail forwarding, and the chronology of first knowledge of the penalty. Attach documentary evidence including the V5C showing the 9 May 2024 issue date, proof of house moves, and any correspondence with DVLA. Send a parallel request to Hackney Council to suspend enforcement. Retain copies of all communications. If the application is refused, apply promptly to the County Court for a review under CPR 75.5(2), where the District Judge may take a more generous view if satisfied that non-receipt was caused by DVLA processing delays outside your control. This combined approach maximises the prospect of having the case reverted to the £130 penalty stage and of recovering any enforcement fees paid, whilst protecting against the immediate threat of seizure of the vehicle.
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@Brosmith
Similar to what happen to me. It happen to me. Moved home just few day after getting a ticket. DVLA (V5c) informed straightaway! The first letter that I received AFTER 1+ YEAR was the enforcement=£280, then I sent the Pe2/Pe3 and inform the bailiff about this. Straightaway they sent someone to deliver a letter and the bill is £515 now. That's a very expensive letter!!!
I am going to ***** fight till the bones!!!!
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£560 Is the amount the call handler was demanding on my first phone call, stating that the Baliffs or my car wouln be seized if i didnt pay it immediately, even though, i reiterated it was the first time id heard anything about this, and she even admitting i knew nothing as they had sent everything to my previous address.I have the recording of this call. Their website states £280.
I was going through a divorce, I'd moved temporarily twice for short periods. One 3 months and one 6 months. I was trying to buy a house in a very difficult and competitive market after covid. It's not as simple as " I moved house" And we all know conveyancing takes longer than it should and can fail at the last minute. Fortunately, I did buy a house and it is my current property, which was updated on 9th May 2024
£560 is 2 x £280 and this amount can only be correct if there are two PCNs that have been registered with the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court and have had bailiff warrants authorised. The bailiff's can't just make up numbers, the amounts are defined by regulation, please see here.
Hence I still advise that you contact Hackney and ask the question, are there any other outstanding PCNs?
And you haven't yet confirmed or provided any evidence that you informed the DVLA of your new address prior to the 3rd May 2024. If you did the change online I would expect that you received an email acknowledgement from the DVLA? It would greatly help your chances of getting the PCN reset if you can find something.
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So you are telling me, that of you move house, and you get a ticket, just around the time you move house and it's sent the wrong address because you actually dare to move house, then you need to pay hundreds of £s through no fault of your own. Before I bought this house 2 sellers withdrew from the sale just before exchange and it all fell through. My exchange and completion where the same day. That date changed a few times before it actually happened! So you cannot notify dvla very far in advance.
Instead of becoming indignant and irate and complaining about Marstons and Hackney you need to focus on the advice being given here. I'm no expert but I know enough that the posters here - who are very expert - are trying their best to help you and to prevent what you owe for the original infringement escalating further or having your car clamped/towed away.
As others have said this is a strictly prescribed process that doesn't allow any deviation. With the best will in the world you aren't going to learn the process or know what to do overnight, but the other posters here do know the process inside out and know what you should do.
I advise you to go back, read all the responses again, and answer all the questions you are being asked - regardless of whether you think they are relevant or not.
eg What date did you notify DVLA of the change of address for your car's V5C/logbook, and what evidence do you have of that notification?
NB - when you notified DVLA of the change of address, you didn't just notify them for your driving licence did you? You have to do the V5C separately
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£560 Is the amount the call handler was demanding on my first phone call, stating that the Baliffs or my car wouln be seized if i didnt pay it immediately, even though, i reiterated it was the first time id heard anything about this, and she even admitting i knew nothing as they had sent everything to my previous address.I have the recording of this call. Their website states £280.
I was going through a divorce, I'd moved temporarily twice for short periods. One 3 months and one 6 months. I was trying to buy a house in a very difficult and competitive market after covid. It's not as simple as " I moved house" And we all know conveyancing takes longer than it should and can fail at the last minute. Fortunately, I did buy a house and it is my current property, which was updated on 9th May 2024
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I'm paying nothing.
They have admitted in 2 phone calls they sent docuntation to an incorrect address as late as last November. They are meant to check addresses after a first no response.
What is an out of time.
Besides now they want £560. They applied for a warrrent 4 hours after I spoke to them. I have registered to this call. It is obviously I haven't a clue what they are talking about.
You've mentioned £560 several times. £280 would be correct for one PCN at the bailiff compliance stage (£130+£65+£10+£75). If the bailiff visits then they can add £235 for the enforcement stage. But only one lot of £235 no matter how many PCNs they're trying to enforce. So if they had visited, even at your old address, they might be demanding £515 but not £560.
£560 suggests that there maybe another PCN in play? Ring Hackney and see can you check.
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We have another thread in similar circumstances running in parallel with this one, so yes it does happen and the out of time process provides a bit of a safety net. But there is no guarantee that an out of time application will be accepted hence it's safer to pay upfront now before the bailiffs add further fees, just in case.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/enforcement-letter-without-correspondence/
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So you are telling me, that of you move house, and you get a ticket, just around the time you move house and it's sent the wrong address because you actually dare to move house, then you need to pay hundreds of £s through no fault of your own. Before I bought this house 2 sellers withdrew from the sale just before exchange and it all fell through. My exchange and completion where the same day. That date changed a few times before it actually happened! So you cannot notify dvla very far in advance.
The out of time declaration is designed to protect people in your situation and if worded carefully should not be opposed by Hackney. We are just trying to establish the full facts to help you.
Paying the bailiff doesn't mean you lose the money - it will be refunded if your declaration is successful. We are trying to stop you being visited by the bailiff and having your car clamped.
If you want to pay a modest fee for help we recommend:
https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk
And see:
https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/latest-news/traffic-enforcement-centre-faq
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I'm asking you to substantiate your claim as regards notifying DVLA.
And back to procedures. What happens when the scenario you posted occurs is that prudent people arrange for mail forwarding. But it's not compulsory.
And yes, the process grinds on to the NoE, the agent's duty, even perhaps a visit, whether by them clamping a car or visit to the house.
At which point owners have the right to follow the procedure numerous posters have set out for you. This is YOUR chance to explain why you did not receive the PCN and if the Traffic Enforcement Centre are convinced then the whole matter is reset, any monies paid are refunded and the owner makes their case to the authority from scratch.
But owners need to engage in the proper manner and not think they can circumvent procedure and vent their spleen against the agent, after all they didn't issue the PCN neither have they anything to do with the PCN enforcement process.
In your case you've neither told us when you vacated address A, or when you notified DVLA or how(other than in vague terms) and without these key facts IMO you limit your chance of success. Of course it's possible that the V5C date on its own might suffice when set against the contravention date, particularly if the PCN was not served until after the V5C date.
But you seem so set on going your own way rather than supplying these simple facts that you risk all the nuisance and inconvenience which a visit from agents can bring.
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So you are telling me, that of you move house, and you get a ticket, just around the time you move house and it's sent the wrong address because you actually dare to move house, then you need to pay hundreds of £s through no fault of your own. Before I bought this house 2 sellers withdrew from the sale just before exchange and it all fell through. My exchange and completion where the same day. That date changed a few times before it actually happened! So you cannot notify dvla very far in advance.
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You are talking nonsense I'm afraid.
Dismiss this if you wish, but on your own head be it.
Firstly, the enforcement agent is the council's agent. They take instructions from the council, not you, and won't amend procedure just for you.
Secondly, you are confusing two totally different but linked procedures.
PCN enforcement
You wrote: They have admitted in 2 phone calls they sent docuntation to an incorrect address as late as last November. They are meant to check addresses after a first no response.
Wrong. The authority may only use the address supplied by DVLA in response to their one and only request: 'Pl provide RK details as at the date of contravention'. There's no iteration or second-guessing if notices are not responded to, they continue using this address up to the Order for Recovery and issuing of a warrant. At which point..
Enforcement of warrant
Different procedures kick-in. The agent is required to undertake checks to ensure that the Notice of Enforcement is sent to the correct address. But any failures here have nothing to do with the penalty which stands at circa £280.
But any beef you have with the agents must be taken up with the council first.
Back to the penalty.
You claimed that you notified DVLA approx. a month before the V5C was updated, therefore implying that you notified them of the change several weeks prior to the date of contravention.
Where is your proof?
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But, I'm not paying £560 and waiting for the refund which could be months.
They have done wrong.
I will put a complaint in and to the FCa. God help they treat everyone this way.
They have admitted I recieved nothing as it was sent to an incorrect address.
These people are bullying crooks. It's despicable the way they treat people. If I don't complain officially they continue to get away with this.
Amazing that 4 hours after my first and original phone call that they can get warrants in place, but they cannot answer basic emails as quickly and leave md in fear of leaving my door open on a sunny day or daring to drive Mt car on a public road.
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Paying now will cap your liability. If your application to get the PCN reset is refused then that cost will only increase from here.
If your application is accepted you will get that money back.
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I'm paying nothing.
They have admitted in 2 phone calls they sent docuntation to an incorrect address as late as last November. They are meant to check addresses after a first no response.
What is an out of time.
Besides now they want £560. They applied for a warrrent 4 hours after I spoke to them. I have registered to this call. It is obviously I haven't a clue what they are talking about.
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So indeed the contravention was 3 May 2024 and last logbook issued 9 May 2024.
I would suggest paying the £280 to Marstons and then filing an out of time declaration that highlights this very close call - a few days later and you would got the PCN and other documents I presume.
(https://i.ibb.co/rGcTvdQx/Screenshot-2025-04-02-at-12-52-39.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/MDv6rp9M/Screenshot-2025-04-02-at-12-54-07.png)
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Pcn qz16458304
MW22KWD
I don't dispute the offence.
I never recieved any documentation.
I've have sar Marstons.
I have listened to the 9 min call again.
I have also spoke to enforcement, they admitted they sent correspondence to my old address last November even though they knew my address changed 9th May 2024 offence 3rd May 2024. When I said we'll call it off and pass back to the council, since I never recieved any documentation, they stated I should have had mail redirected. I said this isn't a legal requirement. She said they will still send officers to seize goods they will still clamp my car if seen on a public road.
First I knew of this was on Monday at 10am. 9 min call. They demanded £560. Even though when I checked the website stated£280. From the sar I can see that on the same day at 2pm they applied for a warrant and various other documents. I cannot view the documents just see a list as the password system doesn't seem to be working. I've emailed re this. I just get a frustrating ever turning circle.
I've spoken to the fca, they were very shocked at Marstons behavior.They have told me to complain to marstons whic will take up yo 8 weeks. I have emailed Marstons yesterday asking them to put the case on hold for 14 days whilst I look into this? As I said I'm happy to pay the original but not the outstanding charges.
Martons have not responded to my email re putting on hold. And having just spoken to enforcement in Manchester they are not aware.
So what now? I dare not leave my door open or drive. Please help
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Date of contravention; we're told 3 May
Date your V5C last updated; we're told 10 May
How and when did you notify DVLA of this change; 'DVLA took at least a month to change it from my notification'
Date you moved from address A; no idea
Did you put in place mail forwarding with Royal Mail? No idea.
OP, IMO there is no way forward with any likelihood of success unless you order your thoughts and evidence as above.
Claims and assertions must be accompanied by proof.
If you notified DVLA of your amended RK details 'at least a month [before 10 May] then this is the proof you need. Without this I cannot you might succeed, with it you definitely should. If you don't have this proof then get it from DVLA.
I notified DVLA by ****(method) of a change in my RK address on (date).
The contravention occurred on 3 May, the PCN was issued on ** and served on ***.
DVLA took ** weeks to action my change in details, see V5C with latest amended date 10 May, and this inevitably caused the authority to issue the PCN and subsequent notices to an unoccupied address.
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Thank you Mr Chips.
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With all due respect, the 'procedural' questions you are asking suggest you do not really have an understanding of your situation. And on this forum, you are surrounded by numerous experts who have helped hundreds of people who come here in the exact same circumstances you describe.
Not receiving letters does not mean you are lying, it's entirely consistent with your story and an address move so close to the PCN date. PCNs fall under a very strict (civil) legal process, full of deadlines and required actions (by you, the relevant council and the bailiffs). This includes sending all notices to the address provided by DVLA when the offence is committed.
Without following good advice, the most likely outcome is that you will end up paying the full amount including bailiff charges (which will increase over time). The timing of your address move does give you a possible chance to get this reverted back to the PCN stage (where you can either pay it or choose to fight it at the original penalty level) but it requires the discretion of the Traffic Enforcement Centre (and to an extent Hackney) and so you need to play your cards right which requires experience more than being told about procedure.
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I'm asking procedural questions.
So my number plate is irrelevant.
All that will tell you it's taxed and if it's tested or needs testing.
I don't have the pcn number at present.
Again I'm asking procedural questions? This is what I need help with. Once I know this I can get on with this case and work out what to do. I'm more than happy to pay the original pcn charge. I'm not paying all the extras, when it is not my fault I recieved nothing. As someone said, to not receive so many letters, means I'm lying( which I am not) or they were never sent to my address. In which case I should only be paying the original charge.
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So once again, what's the car's reg?
Please have a read of the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/msg3/#msg3)
The instructions on posting documents are very clear and you are explicitly asked not to redact PCN numbers and the vehicle's registration mark.
Marston's already know the VRM and now they also know your current address.
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There was an address changed. Pcn event on 3rd May 2024. Dvla changed my address 10th May 2024. Dvla took at least a month to change it from my notification.
I've not recieved anything re this pcn. And knew nothing about it until yesterday. As I said on my original post, I only rang the text number as I thought it was for a dart chart I'd paid but they thought I hadn't.
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From the first post I detected that there may be an address change around the time of the PCN which is why I asked for the VRM. We don't have the PCN number yet.
More to the point should the £280 be paid now the address is out of the bag.
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+1.
As I read this, it has nothing to do with tunnels or crossings but is a simple PCN issued by post to the DVLA address of the registered keeper on the date of the contravention (address A) to which you did not respond because you did not physically obtain any notices. The procedure ground on and now enforcement agents have been instructed to execute a warrant of control.
So, these facts will help:
Date of contravention;
Date your V5C last updated;
How and when did you notify DVLA of this change;
Date you moved from address A;
Did you put in place mail forwarding with Royal Mail?
At present IMO your account reads like a lot of noise being made about something which is essentially your fault. Sorry, but there we are.
The very simple facts above would make the situation clear and indicate if there's a way of getting matters reset to the PCN stage.
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£280 indicates a London PCN that's reached the bailiff warrant stage.
£130 = PCN
£65 = PCN Charge Cert surcharge
£10 = Court Registration fee
£75 = Bailiff's Notice of Enforcement
You're missing the original postal PCN, the Charge Cert, the Order for Recovery and the Notice of Enforcement. They can't all be lost in the post. Your story indicates that the name & address on the V5c registration document for your car is incorrect or otherwise incorrect.
Or sometimes the car is leased or maybe a company car and the PCN and subsequent docs have gone to the lease or finance company or your employer and they have not responded.
So are your the V5c holder? If yes, then check the name and address. Don't just assume it's right, dig it out and check the name and address.
The bailiff, Marston, can only enforce at the address on their warrant. If they cannot enforce at the address they have then they will try and discover your current address and ask the Council to apply to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court to have the warrant re-issued (re-sealed) against your current address. That's why she was anxious to discover your address.
However the bailiff can still clamp and impound your car if it's found in a public place even if the warrant address is incorrect. Such as on the street.
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They do after my phone call yesterday. Refused to explain what the issue was until I gave it
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They may not have your address (yet). They have to serve the enforcement notice of £280 on you before visiting (which then adds an extra £235, so you don't want that).
I don't think the text you received qualifies as an enforcement notice but others will comment.
If we can get the ducks in a row we can advise.
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Says very little
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So the woman on the phone shouldn't have said what she did. Ie we will send the bailiffs if you don't pay now
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If you want help you'll need to give us the info we ask for.
Find out the PCN number from Marstons or Hackney and post it, the VRM and the Marstons ref.
You've not been served with an enforcement notice so no need to panic.
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The ref isn't the pcn.
Yes I know my cars reg number. But I don't see how it's relevant. Plus Marstons may read this forum
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"I then went on their website entered the number"
What number. This is either a Marstons or Marstons/Hackney ref.
I presume you know your car VRM.
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I don't know. Maybe the Sar will reveal it
What difference does it make to my question?
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What are the PCN number and car VRM.
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Hi.
I hope you can help me.
I had a text yesterday morning.
It just stated Marstons and a ref and telephone number. Normally I'd ignore these, but, I have used the Dartford crossing on 14th February, paid, but then last Saturday received a notice of non payment. I telephoned, and stated I had paid, they had no record so they said I should send proof of payment which I did.
Back to the text. I googled the company, found out it was a bailiff and being concerned that it was something to do with the dart charge called.
I've never been so shocked at how bullying, aggressive and railroading this call turned out to be.
I gave the ref asking what it was about, and was asked for all sorts of info. Previous address current address dob. Etc etc. I kept stating you don't need this info, I just need to know what this is about. But she insisted that I give this jnfo before telling me.
It turns out it was a pcn for Hackney Council regarding, I think a bus lane violation. Every time I tried to clarify she was just aggressive and very unhelpful.
So it's a pcn, Hackney council 3rd May 2024.
That was a day I drove from Yorkshire to London to see a relation, before I drove to the channel tunnel, I was driving to Italy and would be away for 3 months. (90 day rule for Eu) So it made sense.
The woman then went on that the pcn was for 3rd of May and was sent to an old address which she stated the Dvla updated 10th May. It was as though she was taking great delight in the fact that it was issued to an incorrect address and that I knew nothing of it. I don't know if Marstons had found this info or Hackney? I stated that I knew nothing off this, and she said, you owe £560 today or we are sending bailiffs. Obviously I said no I'm not paying until I look into this. I also asked how they had my telephone number? Hackney council couldnt have it? So how did they get it. My number is verg private. I dont have it on social media etc etc.She evaded this question. I've had absolutely zero correspondence from either Hackney or Marstons to date. Various other threats of bailiffs visiting etc and I ended the call. It was literally like trying to get blood from a stone asking questions.
I then went on their website entered the number and it stated I " owed" £280!
I then started googling of this was a scam.
I felt very bullied and threatened.
After a bit more googling I decided to send a SAR request through the ico website. This was last night.
I've recieved 2 emails and a further email for a document sharing site. I've not been on this yet.
In the Sar I particularly referenced that I wanted the transcript of the call yesterday, as I can't believe this was a legal or moral way to go about anything. I merely called for info on something I knew nothing about.
So my questions.
Is it legal or representative of code of practice to deal with an enquiry in that manner and using those methods?
How did they get my Telephone number?
Is it worth appealing to Hackney Council. Did they know about my address change? Did they not follow procedure.
Also, even if when I returned home after 3 months away and I had recieved correspondence, I would have been out of town.
Footnote
I'd had a huge amount of problems with Dvla and changing my address etc, so much so I'd had to put numerous complaints in. I even wrote a review on Trustpiolet regarding how difficult they were. They didn't respond to my complaints either. At the end of March I finally spoke to someone that helped and they changed my address, but it appears records were not updated until 10th May.
So what do I do now. Do I appeal to Hackney. Write a seize and desist to Marstons? Any rules and regs I can use? If they state they did send to my new address, which I don't believe they did, and have never recieved anything, did Hackney follow the correct protocol. Should they have rechecked the address after the first notice sent and they didn't get a reply. It seems to me that as I recieved the text from Marstons yesterday, that possibly they have only just taken on the case. Also threatening bailiffs, does it need to have been to court first. I've had nothing from any court?
Sorry for the ramble.
And many thanks for reading and any help.