Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 02:35:54 pm

Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: cp8759 on September 29, 2023, 11:23:43 pm
Quote from: Supremo on September 27, 2023, 12:37:37 pm
Thanks for all your replies. I paid the PCN ticket yesterday at the reduced rate as the final day to pay at a 50% reduction was yesterday. Can I still appeal on the basis of the responses that have been left and also bearing in mind that I have now paid the ticket?
Nope, sorry. You would have probably won based on the draft I provided, instead you've throw your money away for nothing.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Incandescent on September 27, 2023, 05:37:35 pm
Paying closes off appealing
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 27, 2023, 12:37:37 pm
Thanks for all your replies. I paid the PCN ticket yesterday at the reduced rate as the final day to pay at a 50% reduction was yesterday. Can I still appeal on the basis of the responses that have been left and also bearing in mind that I have now paid the ticket?
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: H C Andersen on September 27, 2023, 11:04:51 am
In short:
According to you, the sign and markings you were in contravention, but whether there is a lawful restriction to contravene only the traffic order would reveal.

Likelihood that the order does not and that you are in the clear? Low.

Perhaps you were engaged in an exempt activity? I see no point in setting out what these are, all you should do is respond to the questions already posed regarding what you were doing and for how long you were parked.

Perhaps the CEO had not begun to prepare a PCN? This is a matter of fact. You don't know and no-one else knows other than the CEO and council. This is a technical area regarding the meaning of 'begun to prepare' as opposed to carrying out ancillary checks and thought processes to establish a belief in the CEO's mind that a contravention had occurred.

Likelihood that they hadn't? IMO, low. The 'loading' info is at best inconclusive. Why a challenge would simply assert as opposed to revealing the basis of your thinking, I don't know e.g. I note from the PCN log that ** occurred at ** whereas the PCN was not 'loaded' until *** which leads you to believe that the CEO had not ......

We're looking at probabilities, not possibilities. I wouldn't want your hopes to be raised to a false level on the back of possibilities.

Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: cp8759 on September 27, 2023, 12:32:38 am
I'd stick to the core argument then and let's see what comes back:

Dear Manchester City Council,

I challenge liability for PCN MC26321469 on the basis of a procedural impropriety. This is because when I drove off, the CEO had not yet started to prepare the PCN, so the power to serve a postal PCN did not arise and service of the postal PCN is therefore a procedural impropriety.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 26, 2023, 08:37:12 pm
I stopped to go into the shop outside where I was parked. I was there for around 5-10 minutes
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: cp8759 on September 26, 2023, 07:02:57 pm
@Supremo sure, but first please confirm why you stopped and for how long.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 26, 2023, 02:46:59 pm
@cp8759 can you help with this?
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 25, 2023, 03:03:05 pm
Please advice on the next steps with this as 14 days is up this week. Thanks.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 25, 2023, 12:42:17 pm
FYI

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Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 25, 2023, 12:41:18 pm
FYI

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Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 25, 2023, 12:39:30 pm
FYI.

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Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: cp8759 on September 23, 2023, 11:54:42 am
Quote from: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 10:37:30 pm
SO where do I exactly stand with this? Is there any way of getting away with it or do I just have to pay for it?
Well before we can give a reliable answer on that, we need:

1) All pages of the PCN in full, only your postal address needs to be redacted, and
2) Why did you stop your car there in the first place, and for how long?

One possible angle is given by the key events log on the council website:

(https://i.imgur.com/8y37asR.png)

Given you drove off before 4 pm, this suggests that when you drove off the CEO had not yet started to prepare the PCN, in which case service of a postal PCN would be a procedural impropriety. We've won on this point before, for instance see Jack Sterling v London Borough of Haringey (2230251780, 03 July 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1SUGnhEtpsTmeq72gWAtvNQM3tgGbUOAI)

I have also requested the traffic order for this location, which is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nCrRpm1iL1MNMnoK9
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Incandescent on September 22, 2023, 05:15:40 pm
Well, much as I dislike council parking departments, in your case they have acted correctly.They have issued you with a ticket under the procedure; a postal PCN.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 22, 2023, 05:01:30 pm
Thanks for your help. Basically the councils can do what they like? They can now issue you with tickets without even printing them out, very harsh to say the least. Just another money making scheme.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 11:24:29 pm
Quote from: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 10:37:30 pm
SO where do I exactly stand with this? Is there any way of getting away with it or do I just have to pay for it?
From what you have told us so far, you accept you were parked in contravention, so if it were me, I'd pay the discount. You thought that by quickly driving off on seeing a CEO you'd avoid a penalty, but that option was closed off as I told you, by the Traffic Management Act 2004.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 10:37:30 pm
SO where do I exactly stand with this? Is there any way of getting away with it or do I just have to pay for it?
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 08:08:04 pm
The Traffic Management Act 2004 introduced the facility for councils to send a postal PCN in cases where the CEO was preparing a PCN, but hadn't yet printed it off to attach to the car, or hand to the driver, who  drove off before it could be served.  There are probably photos on the Manchester website, but these are not a legal requirement. If it came to adjudication, the adjudicator will decide, using the civil law test of "on the balance of probabilities" whether the offence occurred or not.

You can of course, submit representations (not appeal) to the council who are likely to reject them. YOu can also take them to the adjudicators for a final decision, but the full PCN penalty of £70 will be in play if you do.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Neil B on September 21, 2023, 05:34:31 pm
Thanks but people will want the other pages too.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 05:24:03 pm
Attached

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Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Neil B on September 21, 2023, 04:57:29 pm
Reinstate the details you've obscured.
Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 04:55:55 pm
FYI



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Title: Re: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: DancingDad on September 21, 2023, 03:05:17 pm
Post up the PCN and whatever photos the authority have plus a streetview location.

Difficult to comment without full information but one reason that a postal PCN can be served is for drive aways... which seems to be what you got.
Title: Penalty Charge Notice (Local Council)
Post by: Supremo on September 21, 2023, 02:35:54 pm
Hi, I am new to the group.

Recently I was parked up on a restricted street during prescribed hours. I came out and the warden was at my car, but no ticket had been printed or issued. So I quickly got in and drove off as the warden said nothing. When I was driving off he started to take pictures, so though nothing of it until I received a PCN through the post telling me to pay £35 within 14 days. I wanted to know where I stand with this and can I appeal?

Thanks.