Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Trimbl315 on April 01, 2025, 04:56:16 pm
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Ok, thank you very much for your advice. Sorry if this is a daft question, but what do you mean by my original reps? Thanks again
Your original representations. These are what you sent as an informal challenge against the PCN.
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Ok, thank you very much for your advice. Sorry if this is a daft question, but what do you mean by my original reps? Thanks again
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Their letter is total tosh, as explained by Stamfordman, so all you need do is now wait for the Notice to Owner, then update your original reps to include comment on their woeful ignorance of the law and the associated regulations.
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I am keen to go further with this, as I genuinely believe that this PCN has not been properly served and I shouldn't be required to pay. I am the registered owner of the vehicle and have the V5. If you would be able to advise further steps, or link me to any pages on the forum which contain this info it would be much appreciated. Thank you all for your help so far :)
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There are actually two further stages if you're up for it. The next stage if you don't pay is to serve a Notice to Owner. This needs to be you to avoid complication, so please confirm you are the owner, and have the V5C Registration Certificate. Formal Reps can be submitted against the NtO, and if rejected, an appeal can be registered at London Tribunals. Going down this route means the discount option is lost, although many councils do re-offer it when reject formal reps, but there is no legal right to it at this stage
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It isn't a controlled parking zone - it's a permit parking area so they are wrong on that.
They've not addressed the point about the size of the entry sign.
I would be inclined to go with this as they don't seem to know what they're doing.
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Appeal rejected:
Dear Mr Trimble
TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT ACT 2004
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE OD08221819
VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER L3DTO
DATE OF ISSUE 01/04/2025 at 11:50
I am in receipt of your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
The PCN was issued as the above vehicle parked in a residents or shared use parking place or zone
without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place.
In your correspondence you state there were no markings or signage of any kind in the area you parked
to alert you to the fact that a permit was required. You also state that the signage present is inadequate
and does not meet regulatory standards.
A Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) is indicated by signs on all entry points to the zone that state "Permit
holders parking only past this point". If the CPZ is not operational at all times, the times and days of
operation will also be stated on these signs. There are also smaller signs on lamp posts throughout the
CPZ which state "Permit holders only". All exit points from the CPZ are signed with time plates that
state "Permit parking ENDS".
There is no requirement within a CPZ for bay markings, and the CPZ is considered to be sufficiently
signed to indicate to a motorist that parking is for permit holders only. Whilst I acknowledge the images
you have provided a driver has the responsibility to ensure they fully check a location for restrictions
prior to parking. As a permit was not displayed, a concession to park was not granted, and there are no
grounds for cancelling the PCN.
I have inserted timed and dated images taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer:
You can still take advantage of the discounted charge of £35.00 if payment is made no later than the
last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which this letter was served.
Please see details of How to Pay at the end of this letter.
Their mentioning of 'a permit was not displayed, therefore there are no grounds for the PCN to be cancelled' is interesting as it was clearly never my argument that I had a permit, and it seems that OMBC are simply glossing over their woefully inadequate signage. They also state that the exits are signed with 'time plates' which is simply a work of fiction, as these do not exist.
Could anyone please advise if there is an appeals process beyond this, is traffic penalty tribunal an option, as I really resent having to pay this fine when it has clearly been setup to sting unsuspecting motorists. I will also attach below their, PEO's images.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PPZspnhavsv5KKqLNKPLUD9VzlbE1U5f/view?usp=sharing
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Looks OK to me, ram it up them, but alter this, 'LATOR Regulations 1996, Section 18', to this, 'LATOR Regulations 1996, Regulation 18'
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Okay please see draft below,
I am writing regarding PCN OD08221819, served on 01/04/2025, apparently on the grounds of 'Parked in Residents Area without clearly displaying a permit.' I was completely unaware that this area was under any parking restrictions, as can be seen from my attached images, there are no markings or signage of any kind in the area where my vehicle is parked which would alert me to this fact. (Images from the original post to be attached)
After revisiting the area, I have discovered that the only signs which would have indicated to me that I am entering a restricted parking area are: small, poorly maintained, and completely inadequate. On the date of the alleged contravention, I entered Mitre Street from it's junction with George Street. I would also note that George Street contains no parking restrictions for vehicles parked along its North side, but appears identical to the area in which I parked in terms of a lack of signage and road markings, further adding to the lack of clarity between the restricted and non-restricted parking zones within this area. I have since discovered that the only signage to establish the boundary between the unrestricted George Street and the restricted Mitre Street, is a small and heavily obscured sign on the East side of Mitre street. On the occasion on which the PCN was served, the sign was obscured by two large vehicles parked directly in front of it, meaning that it was almost completely unnoticeable from a passing vehicle, I have dashboard camera evidence of this fact. The sign itself is also woefully inadequate, so much so that I believe it does not meet the regulations set out in Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 Section 13.10, which would only deem a sign of such size suitable 'in an environmentally sensitive area where the road is very narrow.'
I would also argue that as the sign in question can be so easily obscured by parked vehicles and overgrown vegetation, that Oldham Council have failed to meet the standards set out in the LATOR Regulations 1996, Section 18 which states that 'the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force.'
I would therefore argue that I am not liable for the PCN served on 01/04/2025 due to the insufficient and inadequate signage which Oldham Council have provided at the site. I also notice that your enforcement officer has not yet provided any photographic evidence that any alleged contravention has actually taken place.
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Post a draft challenge here first. I've checked for council pics and they are not up (yet).
Below is the section on PPAs in the Traffic Signs Manual. Says a small sign can be used but authorisation is needed and it's hardly a sensitive area.
(https://i.imgur.com/7EvEDPk.png)
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Thank you both for your help.
I've returned to the site this morning, and taken the following image. As you can see, the sign is slightly more visible than the 2023 street view, but still fairly discrete for a sign which is the only indicator that you're entering a completely restricted area.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16aFx5_TiU2UP_tN-11eBwZ7_DIk8c3Ks/view?usp=sharing
I've also looked at my dash cam footage from yesterday, and discovered that there were two vans parked in the spaces yesterday, which are occupied by the blue focus and silver peugeot in the picture above. This made the sign almost impossible to see, and I have video evidence of this. I will definitely be challenging this, as Incandescent has said, it has clearly been set up to sting unsuspecting motorists. PCN images available below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aTp1egOMpk3PFmwryTed-npfQwszny9D/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X_JvIaeUIdDl9DQ2fWrz_81jM22FdJe3/view?usp=sharing
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Frankly this is a deeply wicked way to sign a total non-resident parking ban: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oqv5fRKxyHLMSy5D6
Anybody notice the sign ? Thought not !
And here's the sign from the other end, turning off George Street !
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oqv5fRKxyHLMSy5D6
OK, a bit clearer in 2020 !!!
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7ondnYfyWdxC44CM9
One sign some distance down Mitre Street
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6UHaptDS1s4TkuiBA
and a sign on the corner with Crown St
For me, the council have totally failed to meet their obligations in Regulation 18 of the LATOR regulations: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7ondnYfyWdxC44CM9
The signage is just grotesquely bad, and clearly designed to maximise penalty income. A nice little earner.
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Post the PCN both sides with no redactions.
For obvious reasons an old Maps view is often useless. Maybe you can go back and check signage as is now.
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Hello,
Thanks for the quick reply. On reviewing google street view, I can now see the sign which you've shown here. I didn't enter from Crown Street but actually came down George street, and turned onto the top of Mitre Street, so wouldn't have gone past it. There is also a sign at the top of Mitre Street, which I didn't see, but from the attached links you can see why, it's very heavily obscured.
Thanks
Daniel
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k-fhzNzGDRVtLZxmQPyKHBojtm4kmRK2/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17rv6YujCID14lcizdT_TorDo75RDDRCM/view?usp=sharing
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It's a permit parking area but if the single entry sign is this tiny I can see why you missed it. I wonder if it fails regulation.
I can see repeater signs in the PPA.
(https://i.ibb.co/jk0qxJ27/Screenshot-2025-04-01-at-17-09-12.png)
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5119824,-2.1566355,3a,75y,48.13h,97.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sabrVlUOKAzfUXGwl-20k2g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-7.808020117869191%26panoid%3DabrVlUOKAzfUXGwl-20k2g%26yaw%3D48.12810903688949!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyNS4xIKXMDSoJLDEwMjExNjM5SAFQAw%3D%3D
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Hello,
I have received a PCN this morning from Oldham Council, apparently for Code 12 'Parked in a residents or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying.' To my knowledge, there were no restrictions in place on this street and as can be seen from the attached google drive links, there are no signs or road markings in place to suggest that my vehicle (black) was parked in a restricted area. On adjacent streets there are signs saying 'Permit Holders Only', with no markings, but on the adjacent 'George Street' there are again no markings and no Permit Holder Only signs, therefore it is completely unclear which areas are under restriction and which aren't. I've refrained from contacting Oldham Council yet regarding the fine, do I have a legitimate case for appeal?
Thank you for reading,
Daniel
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D9TcqZne9qz6sgfkdqlVMoMZrMu4y0B8/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13mvxrcXI9vi6YiH1cxdlnNO23Lz_FQDz/view?usp=drive_link