Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: czgm1h on April 01, 2025, 04:08:04 pm
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Hi.
The section "give full reasons" in the PE3 is blank. it shouldn't be.
I double checked, triple checked this, and although is all highly confusing, that section should have been completed in case of option 1.
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?
The OP hasn't confirmed to what address the authority's notices were sent i.e. A or B.
IMO, if A then DVLA provided the wrong address to the authority for the contravention date given that the OP states that they received a V5C with address B prior to the date of contravention. As we don't know the detail of the authority's objection, then in this scenario the blame lies with DVLA.
If the notices were addressed to B, then the authority were correct in objecting and TEC were acting properly in rejecting. Perhaps all 3 statutory notices went astray, but TEC couldn't be faulted for rejecting the OP's application.
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I had difficult posting a response here, but I DM'd you on reddit anyway in case.
Having revisited your Reddit post and reviewed the complete set of documents relating to PCN ZN14202158, it is evident that a procedural failure has occurred within the Traffic Enforcement Centre’s administrative process. Your statutory declaration (Form PE3), sworn on 9 April 2025 and accompanied by a Form PE2 application for extension of time, did in fact contain a clear explanation as to why it had been submitted out of time. Specifically, you stated that you had not received any prior statutory documents in relation to the penalty charge, that the address on the vehicle’s V5C logbook had been properly updated, and that you only became aware of the penalty upon receipt of enforcement correspondence from CDER Group. These facts, had they been properly considered, satisfy the requirement under rule 75.5(1)(a) of the Civil Procedure Rules, which permits the filing of a statutory declaration where a respondent asserts that they did not receive the notice to owner or enforcement notice. Moreover, Practice Direction 75.5A requires the court officer to consider whether sufficient reason has been provided for delay, and it is plain on the face of your application that such reasons were offered.
The Court Officer Order dated 5 July 2025, rejecting your application on grounds that "no explanation why the statutory declaration served late" had been given, is manifestly inaccurate and procedurally unsound. It appears that the decision was made without properly reading the contents of your PE2. That error alone calls into question the validity of the decision. In R (Mohamed) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2001] 1 WLR 840, the Court of Appeal affirmed that any decision-maker must conscientiously address the substance of a representation, and failure to do so constitutes a denial of procedural fairness. The reasoning in that case, while public law in nature, is applicable by analogy to quasi-judicial administrative decisions of the kind rendered by court officers under CPR 75.
Your rights from this point are governed by Rule 75.5(5), which permits an application to the court for review by a District Judge. Such an application must be made within 14 days, plus 3 days for deemed service under CPR 6.26. The correct form is an N244 Application Notice, which must identify that you seek a review of the court officer’s order and explain the grounds, namely that the stated reason for rejection is incorrect, as your PE2 did in fact set out a valid and truthful explanation for delay. The applicable fee for a paper review is £123 or, where a hearing is requested, £275. This may be paid by cheque to HMCTS or online if authorised in advance. You may also apply for fee remission if you meet the criteria set out in Form EX160A.
Alternatively, if you are unable or unwilling to file an N244 due to cost or logistical obstacles, you may consider lodging a formal complaint to the Civil Justice Policy Division of the Ministry of Justice. Such a complaint, while not a statutory remedy, may draw attention to the frequency of these errors and support broader reform. The documentary evidence you have preserved demonstrates conclusively that the court officer’s reason for refusal was factually and procedurally unfounded. In Anufrijeva v Southwark LBC [2003] EWCA Civ 1406, Lord Woolf underscored the principle that public authorities must not act in ways that mislead or frustrate the legitimate expectations of those affected. That principle, while rooted in administrative law, may be cited to support your position when arguing for institutional accountability.
Finally, there remains the question of redress for the payment already made. Since the penalty has been enforced and paid under the mistaken rejection, and assuming you do not pursue the N244 route, your only remaining recourse would be a discretionary refund request addressed to the London Borough of Haringey. This would be unlikely to succeed unless accompanied by an acknowledgment from the TEC or MoJ that your application was mishandled. Nevertheless, such a representation may carry persuasive weight if appropriately framed and factually substantiated.
In conclusion, your case is a clear instance of administrative error by the TEC. You acted promptly, submitted the correct forms with a truthful and complete explanation, and were refused on grounds that do not reflect the content of your application. You have a strong foundation to apply for review by a District Judge under CPR 75.5(5), or, if you choose not to do so, to make a formal complaint in order to ensure the error is acknowledged and not repeated in similar cases. I remain available to assist with the preparation of either route, as required. - Jason, Dealing with Bailiffs. Contact me on Reddit.
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Well I don't know what to say. You seem to have done everything correctly. The TEC seemed to have made an error.
In particular your address as held by the DVLA was updated and processed before the date of contravention.
The SD and OOT are both attached to your email to the TEC and you have a receipt.
Have you got any confirmation from the council about where they sent the documentation, in particular the PCN?
I suppose you could write back and ask them to review their decision, how this is extra-procedural and would likely time-out your N244 application window. So I wouldn't recommend it.
Leaves us with an N244 application to have the Court Officer's decision at the TEC reviewed by a District Judge. This costs £123 for a hearing on the papers or £313 for a hearing in person. And you will not get the fees refunded, except as a matter of goodwill from the Council. And that seems to have only happened once.
I'm confident that you would succeed with a hearing in person. A hearing on the papers is risky. It needs to be very well written to succeed.
If you succeed with the review, then your SD would be accepted and the Order for Recovery would be revoked and the Charge Cert cancelled. The Council would have to serve the PCN again and you would have the option to pay at the discount or to challenge and ultimately appeal to the Adjudicator. I suggest that would likely loose at adjudication so you would end up paying a further £130.
How much have you already paid against this PCN, £205? This would be refunded when your SD is accepted?
No confirmation about where they sent the PCN. The only confirmation we have had is that they issued my PCNs to correct address based on their 'opposition letter' from the Haringey council which can be seen in previous posts.. but it never arrived.
I would like to respond and say that I would be keen on attending court hearing to see what could happen next, however I will be unable to due to my travel plans abroad for the next several months.
However, what I really would like to see is not for my decision to be overturned at this point, but to prevent errors like this one from happening again. I am not sure what would need to change, and where the starting point would be. However, I would like to see change for fairer approach to how PCNs are delivered to recipient.
I am signing out as I am quite busy with stuff at the moment so won't be responding (thread can be closed if needed), cheers :)
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08 july 2025 I received a rejection based on 'no explanation why it was served late'. It appears the only options if I want to chase it further is to take it to court. I attach a photos in case it helps someone in the future ;)
Until around 2 weeks ago, when an OOT application had been rejected, the letter from the Traffic Enforcement Centre had merely stated that no reason for the rejection was being provided and that no reason was kept on court file.
There has been a new policy of now providing a brief one line sentence...and sadly, from enquiries that I have seen, it appears to be plagued with problems which I will address tomorrow in more detail. I am aware of complaints being made to TEC regarding this new procedure.
Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/)
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OP, this is a long thread. At present the issue is the PCN which you've paid at the 'compliance stage' i.e. £75 added to the debt.
As I understand it, your out of time application was opposed by the council (and ultimately refused by TEC) and your posts have so many unspecified references to [My Address] that my head is spinning.
There are 2 addresses, A and B. You moved from A to B and notified DVLA in a timely fashion, however, it was not changed on their record immediately but you received a new V5C with address B prior to the date of contravention. Yes?
The address to which the council's notices were sent(PCN, CC, OfR) was.....A or B, I still don't know. One of your posts speculated regarding what if the council had used address B - with all sorts of ideas about why the Royal Mail might have failed to deliver them - which in itself implies that the authority used address B.
IMO, if they used address B then the authority's challenge and TEC's decision were sound. But if they used address A then you should challenge their decision which is irrational.
Which address was used by the authority, A or B?
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Well I don't know what to say. You seem to have done everything correctly. The TEC seemed to have made an error.
In particular your address as held by the DVLA was updated and processed before the date of contravention.
The SD and OOT are both attached to your email to the TEC and you have a receipt.
Have you got any confirmation from the council about where they sent the documentation, in particular the PCN?
I suppose you could write back and ask them to review their decision, how this is extra-procedural and would likely time-out your N244 application window. So I wouldn't recommend it.
Leaves us with an N244 application to have the Court Officer's decision at the TEC reviewed by a District Judge. This costs £123 for a hearing on the papers or £313 for a hearing in person. And you will not get the fees refunded, except as a matter of goodwill from the Council. And that seems to have only happened once.
I'm confident that you would succeed with a hearing in person. A hearing on the papers is risky. It needs to be very well written to succeed.
If you succeed with the review, then your SD would be accepted and the Order for Recovery would be revoked and the Charge Cert cancelled. The Council would have to serve the PCN again and you would have the option to pay at the discount or to challenge and ultimately appeal to the Adjudicator. I suggest that would likely loose at adjudication so you would end up paying a further £130.
How much have you already paid against this PCN, £280? This would be refunded when your SD is accepted?
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When and how did you submit the PE3 Statutory Declaration to the TEC. And did you send a completed PE2 Out of Time application with it?
It seems that the OOT application was not submitted or perhaps it was incorrectly completed. Please post up the OOT application. Only redact your name and address.
Hello Enceladus, I attach the Out of Time application that I signed and submitted (PE2 and PE3) via email on 9 April 2025
[attachment deleted by admin]
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When and how did you submit the PE3 Statutory Declaration to the TEC. And did you send a completed PE2 Out of Time application with it?
It seems that the OOT application was not submitted or perhaps it was incorrectly completed. Please post up the OOT application. Only redact your name and address.
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just posting an update to my out of time declaration, which you can see my reasons in comment [#33] - https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/enforcement-letter-without-correspondence/msg69292/#msg69292.
I sent it on 9th April 2025 (email) and today - 08 july 2025 I received a rejection based on 'no explanation why it was served late'. It appears the only options if I want to chase it further is to take it to court. I attach a photos in case it helps someone in the future ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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When an Out of Time Application is submitted to TEC, it can take up to 4 working days for the application to be 'processed' by TEC and for them to notify the LA of the application. In that notification, the LA are instructed to contact their relevant bailiff provider to place all enforcement of that PCN 'on hold'. They are also told that if they wish to OPPOSE the application they must notify TEC within a period of '19 business days'.
If they are willing to ACCEPT the application, they don't need to do anything because; if the council fail to respond by the end of the 19th business date, then the application is automatically ACCEPTED.
If the LA REFUSE the application they 'should' provide a Statement of Truth outlining the reason why. Unfortunately, many councils fail to provide a Statement of Truth (a much longer post would be needed for details etc).
Most worrying, is that many councils use the very same wording as outlined in this thread and that has been the case for many years.
Most important is that if there is a refusal, the case is 'supposed' to be passed to a 'TEC Court Officer' for an impartial decision (to decide whether the refusal was fair.....once again, a much longer post would be needed etc).
When a Statement of Truth is provided, it is currently taking up to 3 weeks for TEC to drawn up the Order (notifying that the application has been refused).
Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/)
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According to Google AI overeview:
DMC Rule" likely refers to a rule related to the Decriminalisation of Moving Traffic Offences
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Hello Enceladus, the opposing letter has been posted here earlier
Post #31
Yes thanks, I see it now.
Are you still waiting for the TEC decision on the Statutory Declaration and Out of Time application for PCN ZN14202158? This being the PCN that you paid the bailiff £280 to freeze the charges.
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Hello Enceladus, the opposing letter has been posted here earlier
Post #31
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Re: PCN ZN14202158
While we are waiting, please lets have a look at the letter from the Council opposing your Out of Time application and Statutory Declaration.
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Hello All,
Today (06 June 2025) I paid final PCN - ZN1484088A for £65 as I noticed the system just updated the amount today.
This marks all PCNs paid for :D . Thanks for all the help received
I am still waiting for decision for my PE2, I will update here once I receive anything back
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Re: PCN ZN14202158. Please confirm you have had no decision notice from the TEC?
and
While we are waiting, please lets have a look at the letter from the Council opposing your Out of Time application and Statutory Declaration.
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29th April 2025 - Received Haringey City Council opposal letter for my out of time application - ZN14202158
- Latest update on this is from 29th April 2025, the opposal letter from the Haringey council. Nothing else received via post or email as of today (07 May 2025).
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Read the letter and see to whom it is addressed...The Applicant i.e. the council. They are notified that TEC have revoked the Order for Recovery and directed that the council cancel the CC.
Your is a copy for information only, no action is required by you.
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Update
20 May 2025: Sent an email with signed & witnessed PE3 form for the final PCN when I noticed it was registered with TEC, this is for ZN1484088A.
31 May 2025: (Today) I received a letter from the county court regarding my latest PCN.
Is there anything I need to do with this letter? I have not received the same letter for ZN14587347 when sending the same PE3 form.
I would think this is safe to ignore and just wait for the price to drop from £205 to £65 and then pay
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Update
08 May 2025:
- [ZN14587347] Received my first PCN from Haringey City Council.
The address on the letter does not have the range (xxx-xxx) of addresses I mentioned in my earlier post, I believe this is because this was taken from my PE3 form, and not DVLA.
Date of notice of this PCN letter is: 06/05/2025
I will proceed to pay this £65 later today.
NOTE: when I talk about range of addresses, this is what I mean:
DVLA address would look like: 123A (120-126) <Road Name>, London, <Post Code>
PCN address : 123A <Road Name>, London, <Post Code>
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Please clarify where you stand with with PCN ZN14202158?
AIUI the PCN escalated to bailiff enforcement.
You paid the bailiff to freeze the charges? How much did you pay and when exactly?
You subsequently submitted a Statutory Declaration with an Out of Time application? When exactly?
Have you heard anything about the OOT application from the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court and/or have you received a Statement of Truth document from the Council? If yes to either then please up what you received.
Thanks,
Morning,
1st of April 2025 - NOE of enforcement received for ZN14202158
2nd of April 2025 - Payment sent to enforcement agency for a total of £280 (this is including £75 complaince fee) for ZN14202158
9th of April 2025 - Witnessed & Signed & Submitted PE2 (out of time) and PE3 for ZN14202158 to tec@justice.gov.uk. Received email response back that it has been acknowledged. Response included "*If you have submitted an out of time application, please note that it will take approx. 8 – 10 weeks for a decision to be made. You will be informed of the outcome in due course."
29th April 2025 - Received Haringey City Council opposal letter for my out of time application - ZN14202158
- Latest update on this is from 29th April 2025, the opposal letter from the Haringey council. Nothing else received via post or email as of today (07 May 2025).
// Update
I just called TEC (07 may 2025) to get an update on the status of my PCNs directly:
ZN14202158 - informed me it might take around 8 - 14 weeks from the date the submission was made to get a decision (slightly higher than what's in email)
ZN1484088A - No update on debt registration yet (I expect this to happen within a week or so, looking at my previous PCN debt registration dates)
// Slightly off topic
I have a neighbour that I share the entry door with for post, she is an old grandma. I noticed that some letters addressed to my address have disappeared, I didn't pick them up as they were not in my name. I did ask her if she had accidentally took the letters in my name, but she said all she does is to write 'RTS - Return to Sender' and put it in the post for everything but my name. I just hope she doesn't have some sort of memory problems and mistakenly returned some of my letters... But I think that's unlikely given that Haringey opposal letter stated they haven't received any letters back.
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Please clarify where you stand with with PCN ZN14202158?
AIUI the PCN escalated to bailiff enforcement.
You paid the bailiff to freeze the charges? How much did you pay and when exactly?
You subsequently submitted a Statutory Declaration with an Out of Time application? When exactly?
Have you heard anything about the OOT application from the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court and/or have you received a Statement of Truth document from the Council? If yes to either then please up what you received.
Thanks,
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Update, I woke up this morning to check the status of my PCNs and I see that one of them has disappeared from the list on council website (https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/). Could it be because I submitted PE3 form? Only ZN14202158 and ZN1484088A is shown. ZN14587347 is gone, do I expect a new PCN (for £65) ? , what If I don't receive this one as well (I hope at least it will be visible online so I will have the number of new PCN if there will be one)
ZN14587347 is still live. Just not linked to the other two. From the log it seems the TEC accepted your PE3 Statutory Declaration and revoked the Order for Recovery and cancelled the Charge Cert. Haringey have today issued a replacement postal PCN. It should be sent to the address you put on the PE3 SD form. This PCN currently sits at £65, ie the discount rate.
The PCN should reach you by this Thursday the 8th May. Post back immediately you get the PCN.
You should also be receiving a copy of the TEC decision shortly.
"06/05/2025 03:00 PCN Issued
02/05/2025 17:35 Off Hold
02/05/2025 17:35 Revoking Order Received, Box 1: No Notice to Owner Received
01/05/2025 16:49 On Hold :TEC - Workflow item (01/05/2026 )
01/05/2025 16:49 Off hold no compensate
29/04/2025 09:13 On Hold: TEC - Workflow item (29/04/2026)
17/04/2025 13:18 Notice of Debt Registration Issued
07/04/2025 13:40 Off Hold
03/02/2025 10:17 On Hold: DMC RULE - Awaiting outcome on registered PCN (03/02/2025)
23/12/2024 06:00 Charge Certificate Issued
12/11/2024 03:00 PCN Issued"
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Update, I woke up this morning to check the status of my PCNs and I see that one of them has disappeared from the list on council website (https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/). Could it be because I submitted PE3 form? Only ZN14202158 and ZN1484088A is shown. ZN14587347 is gone, do I expect a new PCN (for £65) ? , what If I don't receive this one as well (I hope at least it will be visible online so I will have the number of new PCN if there will be one)
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Does the letter concern any of the three PCNs mentioned in this thread?
If so, please post it up, just redact your name & address. Leave everything else visible.
If not, then please start a new thread.
Unfortunately not, its not related to PCN.
I will try to get in touch with Royal Mail to see if perhaps there is any form of subject access request I can do, to see if they have logs of letters that were addressed to me between my move in date and 1st of may 2025
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Does the letter concern any of the three PCNs mentioned in this thread?
If so, please post it up, just redact your name & address. Leave everything else visible.
If not, then please start a new thread.
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Update, I went to check with my neighbours for any letters and decided to start recording video evidence. I have not found anything from the council but found different one that was addressed to me, for the correct address, but it was delivered to wrong address. Which means that mistakes happen, even if its Royal Mail
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I will give the Council a call after 10am (non emergency hours) and see if they can give me some clarification as to what this status means and update here.
I called the Council and asked about 'On Hold - DMC Rule' - they responded they are not sure what that is, it could be some internal note such as software-specific code. All in All, it was on hold during that time. They couldn't elaborate more.
Yes, my apologies. I misunderstood that the SD for ZN14587347 has already been submitted.
For the purposes of Witness Statements and Statutory Declarations you are the Respondent and the Council/TFL is the Applicant. Did you get get that correct?
No problem :) Yes this is what I specified in each form.
Did you receive an Acknowledgement email from the TEC? Please keep it safe.
Do you still have the envelope that the Order for Recovery arrived in? Are there any postmarks that might indicate when it was posted?
I keep all my email, the acknowledgement from TEC as well.
On the envelope, there is nothing to indicate when it was posted or delivered. Some qr code of barcode length, and in the top-right just 'Royal Mail - Postage Paid GB - HQ 11730'
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Yes, my apologies. I misunderstood that the SD for ZN14587347 has already been submitted.
For the purposes of Witness Statements and Statutory Declarations you are the Respondent and the Council/TFL is the Applicant. Did you get get that correct?
Did you receive an Acknowledgement email from the TEC? Please keep it safe.
Do you still have the envelope that the Order for Recovery arrived in? Are there any postmarks that might indicate when it was posted?
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The OfR (Notice of Debt Registration) for PCN ZN14587347 was supposedly issued on Thursday the 17th April. So absent any evidence to indicate it wasn't posted on the 17th it is deemed served on the second working day after posting. So it should have arrived with you not later than Monday the 21st April.
100% certain that it arrived on 24 April 2025. This is because I was going out on 23rd April 2025 to get my PE3 form signed and there was no letters.
PCN ZN14587347 is one of the two PCNs annotated as below. The meaning of "On hold DMC RULE" is as yet unexplained. That may or may not be relevant.
I will give the Council a call after 10am (non emergency hours) and see if they can give me some clarification as to what this status means and update here.
Anyway you now need to submit the PE3 Statutory Declaration to the Treffic Enforcement Centre.
Hello, sorry perhaps you missed this but as I already said:
(I already filled the PE3 form/witness and signed it and submitted it myself, on 23rd April 2025 (1 day before the order of recovery arrived)) - This was for ZN14587347.
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The OfR (Notice of Debt Registration) for PCN ZN14587347 was supposedly issued on Thursday the 17th April. So absent any evidence to indicate it wasn't posted on the 17th it is deemed served on the second working day after posting. So it should have arrived with you not later than Monday the 21st April.
PCN ZN14587347 is one of the two PCNs annotated as below. The meaning of "On Hold DMC RULE" is as yet unexplained. That may or may not be relevant.
PCNs ZN14587347 and ZN1484088A which have Charge Certificates and sit at £195 each have status on the Haringey website of "On Hold: DMC RULE - Awaiting outcome on registered PCN (04/02/2025)"
The "registered PCN" is very likely the PCN that went to the Bailiff but what does "On Hold: DMC RULE" mean? To me it certainly implies that Haringey know there is an issue with the service of documents?
Anyway you now need to submit the PE3 Statutory Declaration to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
Tick the box, one box only, to the effect that you did not receive the PCN. The form needs to be witnessed. This can be done FOC at any convenient County Court. Phone first and make an appointment if required. Tell them you need to have a Statutory Declaration witnessed. Don't sign and date the form until you're in front of the witness.
Else it can be witnessed for a fee by a Solicitor or a Magistrate. Circa £8-£10.
Scan the completed SD to a PDF doc or a JPEG photo and attach it to an email to the TEC. Subject line Statutory Declaration - PCN ZN14587347 - LB Haringey
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added photo attachment
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Yup the vehicle was sold recently. I can't deal with so much expenses unfortunately.
As to this: `So did you find out why Haringay didn't get the changed V5C address given the contravention was after the logbook change?`
I think they did have updated address. Why? Because in their opposing letter, it clearly states my address when they requested the details from DVLA.
Okay, for a second let's assume that what Council is saying is true. They have sent the stuff to my address, but I never received anything. Both versions are true. In this case I could think of one thing that has happened. The postman has delivered all my correspondence to wrong address - why do I suspect this? It is because My address has range of numbers in them, e.g. [MY House Number] [xxx-xxx] [Road Name]. That is one possibility perhaps?
Another update, which is unrelated to initial PCN, its the other one - I received my first 'Order for Recovery of unpaid penalty charge' for ZN14587347. Which is quite late?? This I received on 24 April 2025, which states I need to comply with the order by '12/05/2025', and date of contravention is 31/10/2024 (I already filled the PE3 form/witness and signed it and submitted it myself, on 23rd April 2025 (1 day before the order of recovery arrived))
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So did you find out why Haringay didn't get the changed V5C address given the contravention was after the logbook change?
+1
and
Why does the "Date of last V5C (logbook) issued" now say "20 April 2025"? Have you changed address again or sold the vehicle?
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So did you find out why Haringay didn't get the changed V5C address given the contravention was after the logbook change?
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The PE2 and PE3 do not explain 'I have never received any correspondence.'.
One gives reasons, the other gives the simple grounds.
TEC only know what's told to them. Ditto the authority. So, before getting all het up about the authority's submission, let's see yours in detail.
PE3 form I ticked I never received PCN.
PE2 form submission:
I first became aware of this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) on 1st April 2025, when I received a Notice of Enforcement from CDER Group by post. Prior to this, I had received no previous correspondence from the London Borough of Haringey regarding this PCN.
I moved to [MY ADDRESS] on 1st September 2024 and immediately updated my V5C logbook to reflect my new address. My V5C clearly shows the update date as "14 09 24", confirming that my address was correctly recorded with the DVLA well before this PCN was issued. Despite this, I never received any PCN, charge certificate, or order for recovery at my new address.
I have a history of promptly paying previous PCNs at my old addresses. However, in this instance, I was completely unaware of the original PCN due to a failure in the notification process. This situation has resulted in enforcement action being taken against me without giving me the opportunity to respond in time.
As I had no knowledge of the original PCN until enforcement action had begun, I respectfully request that my Statutory Declaration be accepted out of time so that I may address this matter fairly.
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The PE2 and PE3 do not explain 'I have never received any correspondence.'.
One gives reasons, the other gives the simple grounds.
TEC only know what's told to them. Ditto the authority. So, before getting all het up about the authority's submission, let's see yours in detail.
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I wanted to post little bit of an update, on 9th April 2025 - I have submitted my PE2 and PE3 forms to TEC explaining I have never received any correspondence. This has been witnessed and signed as per suggestions here. Thank you very much, I didn't even know where to start if it wasn't for guides and comments here. I also submitted a separate PE3 for another contravention since I confirmed its been registered as debt.
I also did try to complain to enforcement agent itself about not giving enough notice and asked for a refund, yet they rejected all my claims so I forwarded everything to Ombudsman (waiting time will take couple of weeks).
Today (29 April 2025) I received 'Reasons for Opposing Out of time application' (PE2). It makes my blood boil. It feels like the council tries to make you guilty without any evidence and you need to prove you are innocent. Anyway here is their response for anyone wanting a read:
Reasons for Opposing Out of time application
The Local Authority request that the Traffic Enforcement Centre do not accept this late Statuory Declaration for the following reasons:
The Penalty Charge Notice was issued to vehicle index [VRN] on the 04/10/2024 at 19:03 for Performing a prohibited turn (no right turn) on <ADDRESS>.
In accordance with the London Local Authorities Act 1990 to 2003, the Authority then made an application for the name and address of the registered keeper at the time of the contravention to the DVLA. The DVLA returned the keeper's details as [MY FULL NAME] of [MY ADDRESS.
On 16/10/2024 a Penalty Charge Notice was served via post to the DVLA registered keeper of the enclosing photographic proof. The Penalty Charge Notice gave the option to pay the reduce rate within the 14 days period beginning with the date the notice was serviced or make formal representations within 28 days. Representations/payment was not received, therefore a Charge Certificate was issued 25/11/2024 increasing the outstanding amount by 50%.
As the Penalty remained unpaid the case was registered as an unpaid debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northamption County Court and the Respondent was served with an Order for Recovery and Statuory Declaration (PE3) on the 17/12/2024.
On the 26/03/2025 a Warrant of Control was authorised and passed to the duly appointed Enforcement Agents for the enforcement in accordance with the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiff) Regulations 1993.
The charge was paid in full to the Council Enforcement Agency on the (02/04/2025).
The application states that the Respondent did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice. Although, we note the Respondent's comments, the Local Authority's correspondence records show that the Penalty Charge Notice was issued to the Respondent at the address details provided by DVLA, given above.
It it responsibility of the registered keeper to keep track of all the mail and make necessary arrangements to receive the post to an appropriate address while the details are being updated by DVLA. Haringey Council cannot be responsible for the non-receipt of the post.
All the above Statuory Notices were served by first class post and to the address provided by the DVLA in Swansea. Unless the Notices are returned in post by Royal Mail they are deemed to have been served. The Local Authority advises that no notices were returned in this case.
The Council considers that the application to file the Statuory Declaration out of time should be refused.
Yours Sincerely
I assume I don't have to take any further actions for now? This will now be up to TEC to consider both sides, however if it comes to TEC siding with the Council - is there anything else I can do? I will fight the Council even if it costs me extra as I really do not like what has happened here, I just want to know what options would be available to me, if anyone have further ideas, please comment - thank you :)
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Got response via email from CDER group to my inquiry:
We refer to your recent enquiry.
Please be aware that the Compliance Fee of £75.00 is a statutory fee charged in accordance with The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and is applied upon the commencement of our compliance period – this is when our Notice of Enforcement is issued.
As a result of the above, we are unable to refund this.
Something tells me to respond again because it feels like they are trying to dismiss my case
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Update Timeline
1st of April
- Receive CDER Group NoE Letter through postal delivery
- Sent complaint to the London council of Haringey about handling of the case (although it was just simple complaint, nothing to propose resolution)
2nd of April
- Sent payment to enforcement agency (CDER Group) for the amount of £280
- Sent (email) formal complaint to enforcement agency (CDER Group) regarding Regulation 7 of The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013, with:
- Case details
- Grounds for complaint
- Request for resolution
- Scheduled meeting with County Court for witness signature for PE2 form
3rd of April
- Received acknowledgement text message from CDER group that payment has been received, subject to clearance.
- Received email response to my formal complaint from CDER Group
- Further responded to CDER Group specifically highlight my complaint and pointing them to relevant regulation
Ongoing:
- Waiting for update on the other PCNs to be regsistered as debts
- Scheduled meeting with County Court for PE2 form is for next week
- CDER group complaint is ongoing, awaiting response from their side
I will update this post if there are more things to come today.
/Small edit
Enforcement agent website is slightly confusing, there are 2 pages that mention how you can make a complaint, but each website points to different email address:
https://www.cdergroup.co.uk/contact/make-a-complaint/ - email: customercare@cdergroup.co.uk (sent here)
https://www.cdergroup.co.uk/contact/ - email: customercare@contactcder.co.uk
I hope I don't have to resend my complaint to the other email address. - Received response, there is no need to send to another CDER group inbox.
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PCNs ZN14587347 and ZN1484088A which have Charge Certificates and sit at £195 each have status on the Haringey website of "On Hold: DMC RULE - Awaiting outcome on registered PCN (04/02/2025)"
The "registered PCN" is very likely the PCN that went to the Bailiff but what does "On Hold: DMC RULE" mean? To me it certainly implies that Haringey know there is an issue with the service of documents?
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Keep an eye on the status page for the two at CC and for peace of mind recheck with TEC say every 2 weeks. When the debts are registered, orders for recovery will be sent to your old address but you don't need the physical letters to file statutory declarations that you didn't get the PCNs, only the knowledge that the process has reached this stage.
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bailiffs-and-enforcement-agents-national-standards
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If the NoE was posted then IMO it's payment date was unlawful and as a document it was improper. 7 clear days excludes in this case the day of delivery and Sundays therefore could not be before 9th. Keep the NoE because you should be able to argue for the return of £75 if nothing else.
I am happy to take responsibility for my contraventions, and if some actions as part of the applicant or enforcement agent are unlawful I am happy to also fight against that. Do you know where I could escalate this and argue for £75? What would that involve?
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If the NoE was posted then IMO it's payment date was unlawful and as a document it was improper. 7 clear days excludes in this case the day of delivery and Sundays therefore could not be before 9th. Keep the NoE because you should be able to argue for the return of £75 if nothing else.
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Update
- I called TEC, and confirmed that:
- ZN14587347 - £195 (CC Sent): NOT REGISTERED YET AS DEBT (02 APRIL 2025)
- ZN1484088A - £195 (CC Sent): NOT REGISTERED YET AS DEBT (02 APRIL 2025)
- Paid the fine to CDER group for the amount of £280, and stated CDER reference (Not Client reference) in bank transfer, as per CDER group representative instructions.
The NoE is dated the 28th March and expires on the 7th of April. I'm not sure that's seven clear days unless the NoE was hand delivered?
FYI, I have received enforcement notice letter through post on 1st of April. It was not delivered by hand to me.
Next steps:
- Not sure if this is a unique case, since I have 3 different PCN at different stages. I would like to understand the order to which I should approach PE2 and PE3 forms.
- Do we want to wait for remaining PCR to be registered as debts and then obtain signature for all three PCNs at once?
- Or do we want to work on PE2 form first since we have paid the enforcement agents now, and deal with PE3 forms once they reach debt stage with TEC as per instructions: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
- If above is unclear, I am happy to try one out and post results here on the thread
- I also fixed the PE2 form and changed applicant to: London Borough of Haringey
- One more question, does the PE3 form completion date matters? E.g. I called the county court just now to see available appointments, and seems like you can get one a week in advance, so next available slot would be 8th April from today. Once the PE3 forms becomes debt, is it wise to wait 1 week to get the form witnessed and then send it off, or would it be better to pay £5/£10 to get it signed the same day and send it the same day.
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Don't concern yourself with the PCNs at the CC stage, it's premature and distracting IMO.
Your concern is the warrant.
I would pay the £280. This does NOT affect your chances of resetting back to the PCN and consequently getting a full refund, but it does stop the enforcement clock. For all we know a Notice of Enforcement could arrive tomorrow and give you just 7 clear days to pay or else the debt increases by £235.
..and if your out-of-time submission should fail for whatever reason then you'd be £235 worse off than necessary.
The Notice of Enforcement has already been served. It's been posted up earlier today. The NoE is dated the 28th March and expires on the 7th of April. I'm not sure that's seven clear days unless the NoE was hand delivered?
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Don't concern yourself with the PCNs at the CC stage, it's premature and distracting IMO.
I wouldn't trust Haringey's status page. The OP really doesn't want to miss OfRs and calling TEC will resolve that for now.
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Don't concern yourself with the PCNs at the CC stage, it's premature and distracting IMO.
Your concern is the warrant.
I would pay the £280. This does NOT affect your chances of resetting back to the PCN and consequently getting a full refund, but it does stop the enforcement clock. For all we know a Notice of Enforcement could arrive tomorrow and give you just 7 clear days to pay or else the debt increases by £235.
..and if your out-of-time submission should fail for whatever reason then you'd be £235 worse off than necessary.
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I have also attached draft out of time form, if you have a second please could you check if this is something I could submit.
I've a feeling that, counter-intuitively, the applicant is L.B.Haringey, not you. But wait for the experts to comment, as I am not one.
EDIT:
I never went back to my old address to check for letters
I think Stamfordman is asking if you received any PCNs from Haringey in the past, before moving which may have caused Haringey to log yr old address on their system.
I have received PCNs in the past at different addresses, but not from Haringey. This is my first time living in this Council area. For the duration I have been living here, I have not received a single PCN through post. All the other letters, including council tax is arriving in the post just fine.
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I have also attached draft out of time form, if you have a second please could you check if this is something I could submit.
I've a feeling that, counter-intuitively, the applicant is L.B.Haringey, not you. But wait for the experts to comment, as I am not one.
EDIT:
I never went back to my old address to check for letters
I think Stamfordman is asking if you received any PCNs from Haringey in the past, before moving which may have caused Haringey to log yr old address on their system.
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Have you had a previous PCN from Haringey at your old address.
Do not do anything with the PE2 yet. There are two forms - PE3 too. If you rush this you will regret it.
I never went back to my old address to check for letters. I don't know if there is anything there. It's over 1-2hr commute so I could go there if needed, but never had a reason to visit.
Haven't done anything yet, no worries, just prepping docs and taking notes
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Have you had a previous PCN from Haringey at your old address.
Do not do anything with the PE2 yet. There are two forms - PE3 too. If you rush this you will regret it.
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Hi both, thanks I thought PCN number is sensitive so I hidden it in picture but I think its ok to share:
ZN14202158 - £205 (Warrant Issued)
ZN14587347 - £195 (CC Sent)
ZN1484088A - £195 (CC Sent)
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"Please also post your VRM, and all sides of the EN (only redact yr name & address)." - Regarding
VRM: DY11 OXJ
See attachments for EN
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I have also attached draft out of time form, if you have a second please could you check if this is something I could submit.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi stamfordman, thanks for your help so far.
Do you know what steps should I take from here onwards? Does that look ok?
1. Pay the CDER group (£280)
2. Send a message regarding other PCNs to the haringey council regarding issue with letters and PCN? Or pay for these too, via their portal? £195.00 each
3. Fill out and submit 'out of time' form
P.S. The Out of Time form for the first PCN needs careful filling in - do not send it without getting the drafte checked over here.
The in-time forms are simpler and the process automatic.
Edit: crossed with Stamfordman.
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Others will confirm but my view:
Do not repeat do not pay the two £195 charges. Call TEC tomorrow and ask if Haringey has registered these PCNs as debts. 0300 123 1059
It's best to pay CDER and file an out of time declaration for the £280 as you really don't want a £235 visit from them. Do not file this without help.
I'm puzzled by the dates as by 4 Oct Haringey should have been given your current address by DVLA and I presume they failed to look it up again for the second two.
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can someone tell me if that is a single PCN, or three different ones? I have not received anything for that!
(https://i.ibb.co/Y7fn1Nn6/contraventions.png) (https://ibb.co/27cVCFVw)
You have hidden the PCN number(s) Each PCN has a unique number - so are the numbers identical, or different.
If different then please list them, or give the single unique number, Please also post your VRM, and all sides of the EN (only redact yr name & address).
EDIT:
Stamfordman's post has updated the situation for you.
You may find this link helpful
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
2nd EDIT:
You do not pay the 2nd or 3rd PCNs, nor contact Haringey. See the above link - once the OfR has been issued for a PCN, you can file the form for that PCN with the TEC.
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Yes you have three at that turn on Turnpike Lane.
But you have an automatic reset for the second and third if they've not taken them past the debt registration stage by filing in-time statutory declarations.
You may be able to get out of all of this at £65 a piece if there is nothing to challenge the PCNs on.
Hi stamfordman, thanks for your help so far.
Do you know what steps should I take from here onwards? Does that look ok?
1. Pay the CDER group (£280)
2. Send a message regarding other PCNs to the haringey council regarding issue with letters and PCN? Or pay for these too, via their portal? £195.00 each
3. Fill out and submit 'out of time' form
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Yes you have three at that turn on Turnpike Lane.
But you have an automatic reset for the second and third if they've not taken them past the debt registration stage by filing in-time statutory declarations.
You may be able to get out of all of this at £65 a piece if there is nothing to challenge the PCNs on.
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Date of last V5C (logbook) issued: 14 September 2024
So looks like there was a mistake at DVLA and they backdated it if the contravention was 4 October 2024 - do you have the PCN number?
And are the name and address on the current V5C correct?
Unfortunately I have no other documents, No PCN to check any evidence, nothing. This notice of enforcement is the first thing that arrived this morning and I have learnt about that there is PCN.
Yes the name and address is correct on my current V5C
Hang on, the reference number on notice of enforcement seems to be the PCN number
I can see 3 total contraventions I am confused!!!!
can someone tell me if that is a single PCN, or three different ones? I have not received anything for that!
(https://ibb.co/27cVCFVw)
image link https://ibb.co/27cVCFVw
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Date of last V5C (logbook) issued: 14 September 2024
So looks like there was a mistake at DVLA and they backdated it if the contravention was 4 October 2024 - do you have the PCN number?
And are the name and address on the current V5C correct?
Unfortunately I have no other documents, No PCN to check any evidence, nothing. This notice of enforcement is the first thing that arrived this morning and I have learnt about that there is PCN.
Yes the name and address is correct on my current V5C
Hang on, the reference number on notice of enforcement seems to be the PCN number
I can see 3 total contraventions I am confused!!!!
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Date of last V5C (logbook) issued: 14 September 2024
So looks like there was a mistake at DVLA and they backdated it if the contravention was 4 October 2024 - do you have the PCN number?
And are the name and address on the current V5C correct?
Unfortunately I have no other documents, No PCN to check any evidence, nothing. This notice of enforcement is the first thing that arrived this morning and I have learnt about that there is PCN.
Yes the name and address is correct on my current V5C
Hang on, the reference number on notice of enforcement seems to be the PCN number
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Date of last V5C (logbook) issued: 14 September 2024
So looks like there was a mistake at DVLA and they backdated it if the contravention was 4 October 2024 - do you have the PCN number?
And are the name and address on the current V5C correct?
Unfortunately I have no other documents, No PCN to check any evidence, nothing. This notice of enforcement is the first thing that arrived this morning and I have learnt about that there is PCN.
Yes the name and address is correct on my current V5C
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Date of last V5C (logbook) issued: 14 September 2024
So looks like there was a mistake at DVLA and they backdated it if the contravention was 4 October 2024 - do you have the PCN number?
And are the name and address on the current V5C correct?
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What is the car VRM - I just want to double check.
It looks like you've done everything right bar setting up mail forwarding.
The process involves an out of time statutory declaration and initially goes to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
Car VRM is DY11 OXJ, white Polo :)
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What is the car VRM - I just want to double check.
It looks like you've done everything right bar setting up mail forwarding.
The process involves an out of time statutory declaration and initially goes to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
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What is the reference date on the V5C - the date of the last logbook change.
No doubt the PCN etc went to your old address.
With dates so close you have a good chance of getting the enforcement rescinded.
What London council is it.
£280 = £130 PCN + £65 charge certificate + £10 debt registration + £75 enforcement fee
If they visit you that adds £235 so we recommend paying and filing an out of time application which may succeed here in getting the extra fees struck off but not the PCN.
Reference date on V5c is 14 09 24 - I can see this in Change my name or address, or both. section
This is haringey council of London
here is fee breakdown:
Debt: £205.00
Compliance stage fee: £75.00
Total amount owed: £280.00
I tried calling the council regarding PCN but all the options on the smartphone direct you to their website, so no human interaction at all.
Do you suggest I visit the council in person? They close today at 5pm so probably tomorrow.
Is there a link to this `out of time application`? I already sent a complaint to the council explaining the situation
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What is the reference date on the V5C - the date of the last logbook change.
No doubt the PCN etc went to your old address.
With dates so close you have a good chance of getting the enforcement rescinded.
What London council is it.
£280 = £130 PCN + £65 charge certificate + £10 debt registration + £75 enforcement fee
If they visit you that adds £235 so we recommend paying and filing an out of time application which may succeed here in getting the extra fees struck off but not the PCN.
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Hello,
I am posting this here as have been advised from Reddit.
My original message:
Today I received a notice of enforcement from CDER group with details as stated:
Type of debt: Penalty Charge Notice
Contravention Date: 04/10/2024
Warrant issue Date: 26/03/2025
Other details: 50(R) Performing a prohibited turn (no right turn)
This was apparently couple months ago.
I have NOT received a single letter/email prior to this with regards to above penalty.
It mentions total amount owed is £280.00
I am very conflicted because as far as I understand because you meant to receive a notice before they send enforcement agents.
What is the best course of action now? Can I challenge this? And who should I contact- the council that says I owe the money to or contact enforcement agents??? I don't even know if its something I did, Can I ask to see their evidence of that?
I feel I'm being punished severely and they did no communication with me at all, and just throw enforcement agents at me. Please help
This is England, London
I would like to add dates:
Move in to new address: 01/09/2024
V5C Address Change: Application made on: 01/09/2024
Contravention Date: 04/10/2024
NOTE: I have not received V5C after 14 days from the application, I called them and they send replacement and I received that one.