Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: helpneeded1 on April 01, 2025, 03:46:04 pm
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Go along and see what happens, you can always change your plea if appropriate.
Bear in mind that it is your wife who will have to do this.
Sorry, my bad.
Difficult to keep up sometimes. :)
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Go along and see what happens, you can always change your plea if appropriate.
Bear in mind that it is your wife who will have to do this.
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I just ask that any advice be quite specific, as I don't want to make mistakes in this process.....
Specifically, at this stage, you need to attend court early and speak with the prosecutor.
It may be surprising to some but ultimately they are not there to try and catch you out and generally will be helpful.
They do have a job to do of course, which is to prosecute offences, but this does not mean that they do not have a wider remit of being public servants.
Also, although on here these things are often shorthanded to doing a 'deal', it is not really a matter of being some sort of deal but rather a matter of CPS policy.
Go along and see what happens, you can always change your plea if appropriate.
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on the balance of probabilities, I have may have been more likely to have been driving the vehicle at the time of the offence,
Then she cannot negotiate the "deal" (to plead guilty to speeding if the other charge is dropped). That is only available to her if she was driving.
This was the first advice you were given - if she wrote something along the lines of "I can't really be sure who was driving, it may well have been my husband, but I will plead guilty to speeding if the s172 charge is dropped" ( or words to that effect), then there was no realistic chance of the deal being accepted and she really has no option but to defend the s172 in court.
That is why knowing exactly what was written is so important.
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For any meaningful response you'll need to post exactly what was said. I note the advice was to simply mention the plea offer.
It's quite possible the 'defence' has compromised the plea deal if it puts the driver identity in doubt. (The prosecution may not be minded to allow the deal and will take the s172 to trial)
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We are both new to the court process and how the legal system works for driving (or even other) offences, and we are very grateful for the kind help and advice given. I just ask that any advice be quite specific, as I don't want to make mistakes in this process, as it sounds like has happened in the way my wife responded to the Single Justice Procedure Notice (SJPN).
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...... the case will be listed for trial, as appears to be the case.
For the avoidance of doubt for the OP, the hearing to which he has been called will not be a trial court. If the Not Guilty plea is maintained, a trial will be scheduled at that hearing for a later date.
So the letter she has now received is called the 'Summons to Court'. Are you definitely sure that this is just a pre-trial hearing? What should my wife do at this Court sitting in order to obtain the 'plea deal'?
Alternatively, is there anything that can be done to get the 'plea deal' between now and the Court sitting? Should we write another letter to the SJPN address?
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As the online plea was submitted prior to the paper form being sent, it's probable that the online not guilty plea to both offences (without the consideration for the failing to furnish being dropped) is what would have been accepted by the court before the paper plea arrived hence the reason for being called in for a hearing for both offences.
So the only way to have obtained the 'plea deal' was by sending back the paper form, rather than the online form? What can we do now to obtain the 'plea deal'?
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My wife responded using the paper form, pleading not guilty to both and stating the reasons why.
What exactly did she say ?
If her reasons consisted of potential defences to both charges then the expected outcome would be that the case will be listed for trial, as appears to be the case.
She gave defences to both charges, which is what she thought she is required to do. She stated the reasons I wrote in my opening post in this thread, but provided more detail. The SJPN letter mentioned that the reasons should be stated for each not-guilty plea, otherwise a less favourable judgement will be given. We thought this was what she was supposed to do. Was she meant to write the plea proposal into those boxes instead, and leave out any defence of her actions? How can we salvage this in order to obtain the 'plea deal'?
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...... the case will be listed for trial, as appears to be the case.
For the avoidance of doubt for the OP, the hearing to which he has been called will not be a trial court. If the Not Guilty plea is maintained, a trial will be scheduled at that hearing for a later date.
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As the online plea was submitted prior to the paper form being sent, it's probable that the online not guilty plea to both offences (without the consideration for the failing to furnish being dropped) is what would have been accepted by the court before the paper plea arrived hence the reason for being called in for a hearing for both offences.
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My wife responded using the paper form, pleading not guilty to both and stating the reasons why.
What exactly did she say ?
If her reasons consisted of potential defences to both charges then the expected outcome would be that the case will be listed for trial, as appears to be the case.
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My wife responded using the paper form, pleading not guilty to both and stating the reasons why. She attached a letter to this form, as a few of you advised, expressing that she is open to considering the plea deal, whereby she changes her speeding plea to guilty and the second charge is dropped.
Just in case the letter was lost in the post or not delivered in time, she also submitted the pleas online the day before. The online form obviously did not provide anywhere to attach the separate 'deal' letter or proposal.
Anyway, so she has now received a response through the post and they have invited her to attend a court hearing for both charges. They have not mentioned anything about the plea deal she proposed. Should she call them up, or write another letter to them? Or should she just wait for the court hearing date and make the proposal again on the day itself? I assume the fines/costs will increase if the deal is only accepted on the court hearing date.
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Didn’t the Op said it was more likely he was driving but I can’t remember reading that he said he was certain.
I don’t think his wife should mention this personally.
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The way I see it, is that your wife filled out the NTP without consulting you, believing she couldn't identify the driver.
When you found out about it, you can confirm you were actually the driver?
I'd explain this to the prosecution on the day, and wish you luck.
So you want the defendant (wife) to tell the prosecutor that she now knows her husband was driving but would like the prosecutor to accept a deal where she pleads guilty to an offence she’s just said she didn’t commit?
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I'd explain this to the prosecution on the day, and wish you luck.
I don't think that is quite what the OP has in mind.
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The way I see it, is that your wife filled out the NTP without consulting you, believing she couldn't identify the driver.
When you found out about it, you can confirm you were actually the driver?
I'd explain this to the prosecution on the day, and wish you luck.
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Thank you, all. We will do that. You have all been so very helpful and we cannot thank you enough for your generous input!
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Yes, that is the way to do it.
This arrangement is well known to all court users (prosecutors, magistrates and their legal advisors). It is almost always successful. Since this site has been running there have been no reports of refusals and this site's predecessor (Pepipoo) had knowledge of only one (both, as far as I am aware).
I think the police and their prosecutors recognise that very often the "FtP" charge comes about due to administrative difficulties (lost or delayed post, unnotified change of address, drivers' misunderstanding of their responsibilities, etc). They also understand that the consequences of conviction for that offence are usually far more profound than for speeding.
So long as they are happy that no advantage is being sought (say, if the actual driver was trying to avoid a "totting up" disqualification) they are content to accept a guilty plea to the underlying offence and will drop the FtP charge (which, if continued, might often involve them in a trial).
The "leverage" that the driver has is that without guilty plea, a conviction for speeding cannot succeed (the police have no evidence to prove who was driving). An offer to plead guilty secures that conviction with little or no effort and in exchange all the police must do is drop the other charge. he willingness of prosecutors to undertake this agreement is illustrated by the fact that, in circumstances like your wife faces, they almost always raise both charges (speeding and FtP) even though they do not know who was driving and the speeding charge cannot possibly succeed without a guilty plea.
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write a note to say she will change the non-guilty plea to the speeding offence in return for the second charge being dropped
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Thank you.
So, in order to have the conviction for the speeding offence only, would it be best to plead non-guilty to both offences on the form, and write a note to say she will change the non-guilty plea to the speeding offence in return for the second charge being dropped?
If so, how can a non-guilty plea for the speeding, once submitted on the form, be changed to a guity plea?
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What if the court hearing is done online instead?
In normal circumstances a NG plea will require court attendance.
Before the pandemic it was necessary to attend court to undertake this deal and speak to the prosecutor (the agreement of the prosecutor is required as the court cannot accept it without that agreement). However, during the pandemic most courts accepted a written request to do the deal. Local police prosecutors made an agreement with their courts that the magistrates’ legal advisors could accept the deal. In some areas this arrangement has carried on.
We have heard some reports of people offering to do the "deal" when returning their SJPN with NG pleas to both charges and the deal being done without an attendance being required..
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The usual way is to see the prosecutor on the day to offer to plead guilty to the speeding if the FtF is dropped - they will often accept.
So would this method only work if my wife were to plead non-guilty to both charges initially, in order to force a court hearing? And then meet the prosecutor on the day itself?
What if the court hearing is done online instead? How would one be able to meet the prosecutor beforehand? I have read that they started using virtual court hearings during COVID-19 times.
Also, in case the court hearing is in person, is the prosecutor always easily accessible prior to the hearing? Are there occasions when they cannot be found? What would we do then?
What about sending an email to the prosecutor in advance to make the deal? Would that be advisable?
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How certain are you that you were driving?
Only 60/40 or maybe 70/30.
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How certain are you that you were driving?
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...and the website itself provided the option of not identifying a driver, which gave the impression that this is a legitimate response.
Hmmm - out of interest can you elaborate on this? (Although I do not see it providing any defence)
I'm surprised if the website offered an option of not being able to identify the driver as many people would take that as meaning that an "I don't know" response was one that was acceptable.
My wife (the RK) and I (the driver) both answered s172 requests last year. I'm sure I kept copies of our responses somewhere - I think I'll check to see how the question was phrased.
Unfortunately, we did not take screenshots of the website form when my wife filled it out. It was done back in October/November 2024, so my memory is a little hazy. However, I do recall that there was an option to tick to the effect of not being able to provide the name of the driver. My wife ticked this box and then it took her to a box to give an explanation. She filled this box, stating the reason why she could not provide the name. We were ignorant of the law and did not realise that doing this would result in a police charge.
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Thank you all for your responses. They are quite helpful.
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If anybody wants to debate NJ's comments regarding pragmatism, feel free to start a thread in the Flame Pit. If anybody wants to hijack a case thread to debate an issue that was merely indicated as an aside for the sake of completeness, and is of no assistance to the OP whatsoever, please feel free to take a long walk on a short pier.
Except when the Divisional Court decide otherwise, the requirements contained within s. 172 apply only when the addressee "is so required" (by or on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police). *If* the requirement (the s. 172 notice incorporated into the NIP), on proper construction, does not make the usual requirement, then there is no offence of failing to comply with a requirement that is not made.
That said, I would suggest that the OP's comments regarding the impression that "dunno" was an acceptable response is substantially borne of variously clutching at straws and/or having a moan as he feels hard done by, and is exceedingly unlikely to negate the usual requirement to name the driver.
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...and the website itself provided the option of not identifying a driver, which gave the impression that this is a legitimate response.
Hmmm - out of interest can you elaborate on this? (Although I do not see it providing any defence) [quote from @JustLoveCar's post]
I'm surprised if the website offered an option of not being able to identify the driver as many people would take that as meaning that an "I don't know" response was one that was acceptable.
My wife (the RK) and I (the driver) both answered s172 requests last year. I'm sure I kept copies of our responses somewhere - I think I'll check to see how the question was phrased.
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Unfortunately the very thing you have now done (established who was driving) has destroyed her “reasonable diligence” defence.
The offence is committed when the 28 day timeframe to respond has expired with no unequivocal nomination being made. The reasonable diligence a recipient is expected to exercise must be exercised within that period. If she goes to court and her defence is “I couldn’t find out within the 28 days. But since then [having done something she could easily have done during the 28 days] I now have”, she will be convicted.
There is some debate among contributors on here about naming “the most probable” driver. As you have discovered, naming nobody because you cannot be absolutely sure inevitably leads to court action. So, often the advice given for people in your situation is to name the person most likely to have been driving.
It is suggested that his does not fulfil the requirements of Section 172, which requires the driver – not the most probable driver - to be named. But being pragmatic, this is going to lead to your wife’s situation and defending the “Fail to Provide” (FtP) charge is very difficult even without destroying the defence as you have. As well as that, a conviction for that offence is far more serious than speeding. Apart from six points, it has a profound effect on insurance premiums.
In practice, provided there is no reason for the police to suspect that any skulduggery was being undertaken (say, if one of you had nine points) and provided they have no evidence which casts doubt on the truth of the nomination (which they usually don’t - and if they did they would usually ask the recipient to “reconsider” their nomination) the case will simply be processed by the “sausage machine.”
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We feel this is very unfair as she complied with the request to respond within 28 days
Alas, she had not complied with the law. The law doesn't just ask for a 'response' but asks for an unequivocal driver nomination. (Of course, there's the statutory defence mentioned above)
I would suspect the paperwork received made it quite clear what response was required to the s172?
...and the website itself provided the option of not identifying a driver, which gave the impression that this is a legitimate response.
Hmmm - out of interest can you elaborate on this? (Although I do not see it providing any defence)
1. Pay a solicitor £1500 to informally negotiate with the prosecutor to drop the failing to furnish charge in exchange for a guilty plea on the speeding charge?
2. Contact the prosecutor ourselves to negotiate dropping the failing to furnish charge in exchange for a guilty plea on the speeding charge? If so, how would they be contacted though and what should we say?
3. Plead non-guilty to both charges and explain the circumstances to the judge? Would this be too risky though?
4. Plead guilty to the speeding charge and non-guilty to the failure to furnish charge, assuming the prosecutor will automatically drop the failure to furnish charge prior to the court date?
1. Unnecessary really
2. This can only usually be done by attending court
3. Risky - a real chance of a s172 conviction I'm afraid (6 points)
4. This gives away any 'bargaining chip'. She could be convicted of both offences as they are not mutually exclusive.
The usual way is to see the prosecutor on the day to offer to plead guilty to the speeding if the FtF is dropped - they will often accept.
However, note the point only the driver should consider pleading guilty to the speeding. (And the charge cannot be 'transferred')
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If there was reasonable diligence she could have done but did not do then she can’t avail herself of the defence (at least, should not be able to).
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Thank you.
How likely is she to succeed in pleading non-guilty to both in court, though? At the time of responding to the Notice of Intended Prosecution, we had only checked our own diaries. We had not checked bank statements. It is only now, after being advised by the solicitors, that I have seen a particular expenditure from a shop on my bank statement, that I feel makes it slightly more likely that I was driving. My wife's bank statements do not show any activity for the day in question.
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on the balance of probabilities, I have may have been more likely to have been driving the vehicle at the time of the offence,
Then she cannot negotiate the "deal" (to plead guilty to speeding if the other charge is dropped). That is only available to her if she was driving.
If you decide that you were the driver the only option for her is to defend the "Fail to provide driver's details" charge. She has committed the offence as she has not provided those details as required. However, there is a statutory defence which says this:
"A person shall not be guilty of an offence [of failing to provide driver's details] if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was."
There have been one or two notable successes. Here's one:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/nov/28/northerner.heatherstewart
But it is not easy to convince a court. If it was, everybody would do it.
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Would anyone be able to help with a double charge of speeding and failing to provide information on the driver?
We live in Hertfordshire.
My wife received a NIP in November 2024 for her vehicle speeding on a weekend at around 16:00. We share the vehicle almost equally. The road is just 2-3 minutes' drive away from our house and we need to use it to get to most places in the town, so any one of us could have been driving the vehicle at that time. We both checked our diaries and could not tell who was driving. The online form to respond to the NIP provided an option to the effect of being unable to confirm who was driving the vehicle, and then provided a box to give more details on the reason why. My wife filled out this form in good faith and gave these reasons. She did not want to guess the driver as she feared a mistake could be seen as perverting the course of justice. She thought her response would prompt the police to write back and advise her further about what to do. The submission was filed within the required 28 days and was acknowledged by the website.
My wife was, therefore, very surprised to receive a Single Justice Procedure Notice recently, stating that she has been charged with exceeding the speed limit and failing to identify the driver. We feel this is very unfair as she complied with the request to respond within 28 days, and the website itself provided the option of not identifying a driver, which gave the impression that this is a legitimate response.
I have spoken with a few motoring solicitors but they are asking for £1500-£2000 to defend my wife. One said it will cost £1500 for them to negotiate informally with the prosecutor for them to drop the failing to furnish charge in exchange for a guilty plea on the speeding charge. Alternatively, they want £2000 to attend court and defend my wife, if she pleads non-guilty to both charges. One solicitor on JustAnswer (who did not inspire me with confidence) said my wife should just plead non-guilty to both and try to defend herself in front of the judge, despite the risks.
Following the recent advice of solicitors, we have now checked our bank statements and I feel that, on the balance of probabilities, I have may have been more likely to have been driving the vehicle at the time of the offence, as I go to the particular shop showing on the bank statement more frequently than my wife does. I would say I feel it is 70% likely to be me. However, this is still a guess and we do not know for sure.
We do not wish to pay such substantial sums to a solicitor if it is something that we can just do ourselves. Neither of us have ever previously had any driving points or convictions, or any other criminal charges for that matter. We just want the best option in terms of minimal cost and minimal points and minimal future implications. I have read online and feel we definitely do not want a S172 conviction due to its implications on future car insurance bills.
Which option do people suggest?
1. Pay a solicitor £1500 to informally negotiate with the prosecutor to drop the failing to furnish charge in exchange for a guilty plea on the speeding charge?
2. Contact the prosecutor ourselves to negotiate dropping the failing to furnish charge in exchange for a guilty plea on the speeding charge? If so, how would they be contacted though and what should we say?
3. Plead non-guilty to both charges and explain the circumstances to the judge? Would this be too risky though?
4. Plead guilty to the speeding charge and non-guilty to the failure to furnish charge, assuming the prosecutor will automatically drop the failure to furnish charge prior to the court date?
Are there any other suggestions we could try instead? Thank you, in advance, for all for your help and knowledge!