Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: moa on March 31, 2025, 09:31:32 pm
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I've got an update guys. Great news, the PCN was cancelled. Thank you so much guys for the help. The appeal letter was extremely key to this successful outcome. You just saved me some dosh there.
I now avoid leaving my car there where I got the pcn ticket. The council has been coming up with several excuses why they have not yet installed the personalised permanent disblaed bay. Initially, I was told the IT systems was just changed(April 1) and it would take them several weeks to get training done before they can install the bay. After some weeks, I called the council again. I was then told they have given the contractor the goahead and it should be done within 28 days. In the meantime, they have put in place a temporary disabled bay that is not enforceable.
Anyways, I am glad that you guys came to rescue with the pcn ticket.
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I think I'll just go and park at my brother's house which is 30 minutes away. I've got to go to the office next week and I won't be able at home 8am to 6pm.
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Personally, I wuoldn't tempt fate until the matter is sorted out one way or the other. Less hassle.
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Thanks Anderson for the reply. My question is on days that I will be working from the office, can I simply park my car in the marked bay where I got the PCN ticket? I did ramble on in my last message, my bad.
He's saying you can just park fully on the carriageway provided you set the clock to cover the hour. The road isn't that narrow and there are probably other yellow lines in nearby roads you can use.
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Thanks Anderson for the reply. My question is on days that I will be working from the office, can I simply park my car in the marked bay where I got the PCN ticket? I did ramble on in my last message, my bad.
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I don't follow your question.
As a BB holder, you can simply park on the carriageway for an hour as is done I suspect on 99% of yellow lines up and down the land. You are not required to park on the pavement, even during permitted times, it's optional.
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Sorry folks for coming back with a followup question. Now that I have submitted my PCN appeal, can I still continue to park in the same spot on the basis that I think the council would uphold my appeal? That is assuming they don't change the signage. I called the council department responsible for installation of disabled bay and I was told that they have just switched IT systems on April 1st and they need to do trainings with the IT system. He said that installation of disabled bay would take several weeks before it can take place. Another alternative is to go and park my car at a relative's place which is about 30 minutes away to get to by bus.
Can the CEO come to that same spot and issue me a PCN ticket whilst waiting for the outcome of appeal with the signage remaining the same?
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Thanks so much @Anderson. You are a true legend. I have sent off the appeal to Havering Council and I included the pics from Birkdale avenue. I greatly appreciate all other responses to my post. I will keep you posted how I get on. Reading the appeal that you put together does make sense @Anderson.
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You can see the difference between the two signs. The 'wrong' one is a blue on white plate whereas the correct sign is purely blue. The correct sign doesn't state 'At other times', because it's not permitted, it states the times which is what's required.
My suggestion would be:
PCN *****
I am making informal representations on the basis that the contravention did not occur and the penalty exceeded the amount permitted in the circumstances of the case.
Firstly, I would say that I hold a Blue Badge which was displayed as required at the time the PCN was issued.
Now I would refer the authority to the sign in their evidence taken by the CEO. This shows two signs found in Schedule 4 of the governing regulations, specifically items 1 in the Part 3 sign table and item 3 in the Part 4 sign timetable. I also refer you to Part 2, the references to 'yellow' and 'white' panel signs and how these are to be arranged when displayed on the same post, as at the location.
The council's yellow sign is prescribed for the purposes of regulating waiting along a length of road. However, the white panel sign, which is prescribed for regulating a parking place which is situated partly off the carriageway, is not prescribed because it includes the words 'At other times' and it is these words which lie at the centre of the council's incorrect signage.
These words are often found within a parking place sign and are permitted but only when they serve to contrast with other times stated in the sign e.g. Pay and Display Mon-Sat 9am - 4pm At other times Permit Holders Z etc.
But this is not what the council have done here. Instead, they have used the words to contrast with the yellow panel waiting restriction which has nothing whatsoever to do with the wording of the parking place sign.
Before this point is rejected, I refer you to the sign combination which can be seen in the background of photo no.2 enclosed, a close-up of which is enclosed as photo no.3. Here you will see a correctly formatted footway parking sign. Again it is mounted in combination with a yellow panel sign but instead of stating 'At other times' and thereby asking the motorist to refer to an unrelated waiting sign, it correctly gives those hours as required. Birkdale is an excellent example of how footway parking with associated waiting restrictions should be signed, Firham Park Avenue is not. In fact Firham Park Avenue is not even a footway parking sign, it's a parking place sign which therefore could not give rise to an alleged footway parking contravention.
But the fundamental nonsense which underpins the council's approach in this matter is that in Birkdale BB holders who are permitted to park on the waiting restriction are forced to do so wholly on the carriageway for 1 hour a day at exactly the time when there is presumably a traffic management rationale for regulating and minimising on-street parking through the waiting restriction.
Similarly for Firham and my PCN which was issued because I had parked in an unlawfully marked parking place with two wheels off the carriageway during the period of a waiting restriction and penalised for doing so during the period of 'At other times' which, for reasons given above, is not a permissible restriction anyway.
I urge the authority to cancel my PCN and advise council colleagues to rectify their signage and examine the underlying rationale as a matter of urgency.
Yes, it could be shortened if it's assumed that they'll reject out of habit. But why not go full blast, at least you've got the basis of formal reps if needed later.
And whether parking is even permitted on the footway anyway hasn't even been touched on.
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I think the following pics are wider and give more detail @Anderson
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I have added more photos. My bad
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Thanks for those comments HC Anderson. Please find attached the photos of Firham Park Avenue with Birkdale as you requested. Let me know if you would rather I retake the photos.
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They really don't get it, do they.
The blue P on white background in this configuration is a PARKING PLACE traffic sign, see item 3 in the Part 4 sign table in the Traffic Signs etc. Regs:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made
There is no provision for the variant 'At all other times'.
But it's not a parking place according to the Trafweb info.
The correct sign for footway parking without a parking place is at items 12 and 14 in the Part 2 sign table here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
Their sign is a real mish-mash.
So, if footway parking has been disapplied by resolution then the wrong signs have been posted and therefore it's of no effect. But despite this the markings which extend to the footway only clearly indicate that the council will accept motorists parking therein, albeit unlawfully.
But if it's supposed to be a parking place then again the wrong sign has been placed AND the carriageway markings are missing.
OP, you have plenty of time to submit reps therefore as you live there pl take photos of the junction with Birkdale. You can see in one of your photos that there's a correct footway parking sign there and I want to trace its origins. Photos should show detail and wider context pl.
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Thanks for the feedback Stamfordman. I will be researching the 01 yellow line. Is there a template letter for appeal somewhere on the internet that I can use for the PCN appeal?
Not sure if this information is relevant. My occupational therapist recommended an installation of a disabled bay in January because of my physical disability. The council department were doing consultation but all responses from residents stopped on the 7th of March. Can this form part of the appeal?
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The only traffic order there is the 1 hour yellow line and in my view the footway parking sign and markings are irrelevant as Havering must have allowed footway parking there.
The correct contravention is an 01 yellow line for which you are exempt.
At least that's my take.
And it's obviously ludicrous to expect a BB holder to move a car off and on the footway just for that hour.
(https://i.ibb.co/fVKFsmX5/Screenshot-2025-04-01-at-12-11-21.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/27d4gqKr/h3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/7xw14ZK2/h2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/4BkFcJq/h1.jpg)
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My apologies for removing the Vehicle Registration Number. I have now included another pic of PCN ticket without redacting Vehicle registration Number.
By the way, I set my blue badge to 10am which should have covered me for 3 hours when I parked there and the blue badge was displayed.
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You don't need to hide the VRM. We can't look at the council's pics properly.
What they are saying is that you would be exempt if on the carriageway but not when in the 2-wheel up bay.
The yellow line only controls 1 hour a day to prevent commuter parking.
There are no footway bays marked on Havering's site so I think there is a resolution allowing footway parking and the marked bays may or may not be mentioned in the resolution.
Penalising a BB holder for this is ridiculous but I can't recall what argument we've used before.
(https://i.imgur.com/SAGiVJk.png)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5976414,0.2379892,3a,31.6y,212.48h,80.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_bYnLukdC-JTZfoWA6HwYQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D9.950934238348864%26panoid%3D_bYnLukdC-JTZfoWA6HwYQ%26yaw%3D212.47516155678173!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyNS4xIKXMDSoJLDEwMjExNjM5SAFQAw%3D%3D
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The PCN is from Havering. They have the Clearway sign for between 1030am and 1130am suggesting cars are not allowed to park in the parking bays which got me rattled on whether I have grounds for appeal. Would appreciate any advice. Please find attached the PCN picture. Removed a section of my Vehicle registration.
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We've seen this situation before and I think we've seen it off as it's a nonsense contravention.
Is it Havering or Redbridge?
Post the PCN with no redactions.
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Hi folks, I need some advice on a PCN that was issued to me last week saying that I contravene the code 622 means "you parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than the carriageway".
This is a parking bay on my street as you can see in the picture attached. Cars are not expected to be parked there between 10.30am and 11.30am. However, since I do have a blue badge and the road does have a yellow line, I am assumed that I could park in the bay. I set the clock on my blue badge to 10.00am. You can see from the picture that the blue badge is visible in the picture. The ticket inspector issued me with a ticket at 10.59. I have attached the parking sign picture. I would appreciate any advice on whether I am in the right and if I've got a good chance of challenging this PCN. It seems the ticket inspector's argument is that I parked with car tyres on the pavement when I shouldn't be at restricted time.
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