Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: arctickoala on September 21, 2023, 11:25:14 am
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Bailiffs cannot execute your brother's warrant at your address it is not where he lives. Paragraph 14(6) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.
The warrant is therefore a defective instrument.
If bailiffs threaten you with enforcement, then just show a document that you are the occupant of the address.
Transport for London needs to re-apply for a new warrant specifying your brother’s current address (wherever that may be). Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7).
You don't need to pay the debt on your brother's behalf.
Warrrant is not defective, the address that they visited is the relevant address as it is the RK address of record.... all the bailiff needs is reasonable belief, which is satisfied by DVLA records.
The warrant is rebuttable by proving he doesn't live there.
I'm not sure that 14(6) is the right legislation BTW, that implies right of entry, which bailiffs in these cases do not have as long as not invited in.
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Bailiffs cannot execute your brother's warrant at your address it is not where he lives. Paragraph 14(6) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.
The warrant is therefore a defective instrument.
Transport for London needs to re-apply for a new warrant specifying your brother’s current address (wherever that may be). Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7).
You don't need to pay the debt on your brother's behalf.
Given that the registered keeper appears to have registered his vehicle at his brother's address, I cannot see how it could be argued that the warrant is a 'defective instrument'(whatever that may be).
The correct course of action here is for the vehicle keeper to submit forms PE2 and PE3 (Out of Time Statutory Declaration). He will need to explain why he registered the vehicle to his brothers address and most importantly, whether or not he collected the post etc. He will of course have to provide his current address on the forms and also confirm that he had amended his V5C (Log Book) to his current address.
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Bailiffs cannot execute your brother's warrant at your address it is not where he lives. Paragraph 14(6) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.
The warrant is therefore a defective instrument.
If bailiffs threaten you with enforcement, then just show a document that you are the occupant of the address.
Transport for London needs to re-apply for a new warrant specifying your brother’s current address (wherever that may be). Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7).
You don't need to pay the debt on your brother's behalf.
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Absolutely. What are his options? Paying the £279 fine when he's paid the price he was asked is crazy.
The case history you showed says he never paid the charge at all?
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Frankly, until we can see TfL documents, no real advice can be given. He cannot appeal any penalty charge notice as the process is at its final stage for debt recovery. The only way to revert the process is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration. What would be put on that declaration ?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice
and also
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe2-application-to-file-a-statutory-declaration-out-of-time
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If he wins overall, all monies paid are recoverable, including bailiff's fees...may take some time but all must come back to him.
Pay now and claim back later is valid at this stage, if only to prevent further escalation of costs or enforcement action such as cars being clamped.
More to the point is what bruvver is going to achieve.
He has to provide a truthful statement that he did not receive one of the Notices that the procedure calls for.
Can he actually truthfully say that or is it more a case of he ignored the post that was being delivered. Does he know himself? (Don't answer these questions but be aware it is a criminal offence to lie on that statement)
He also has to provide an Out of Time request...basically a request for the statement to be accepted late and providing a good excuse.
Even the best of reasons can be objected to by the Authority, who normally do. An objection often finds the request denied.
Which means a request to a District Judge to decide... that s over 100 notes on a decision on papers or over 250 for a hearing... costs not normally recoverable.
Only when that lot is done can the PCN itself be appealed, at the moment it is about process not the rights or wrongs of the PCN.
It is about where the process went wrong and whether brother was blameless.
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Absolutely. What are his options? Paying the £279 fine when he's paid the price he was asked is crazy. Should he continue with appealing / Statutory Declaration? Is the bailiff correct with the option of paying and then appealing? If the appeal succeeds, then can he reclaim the total amount, or are the bailiff fees not recoverable?
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Well, it doesn't affect you, it is his problem registering a car at an address that is not his usual address thus not getting mail on time or even at all. However, as you've told us, you are getting a load of hassle from the bailiffs. In the end, the bailiffs will track him down and seize property, usually the car as this is easy to find.
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It's not my post, so only he can answer if he's picked it up on time or even at all. How does this affect the situation?
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I think his post should have been passed onto him.
Only "should" ? Why is there doubt ?
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I think his post should have been passed onto him. I don't know if he's dealt with it on time. I can find out, but if he hasn't dealt with it on time, then what is the course of action here?
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There are three notices there, you tell us were posted to your address. I think you need to answer Incandescent's question?
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PCN details and status history:
Non payment of Congestion Charge
Contravention location
Albert Embankment
Contravention date and time
01 March 2023 at 17:00
Current status
Exported to Enforcement Agent
Outstanding amount
£ 279.00
21 August 2023 Exported to Enforcement Agent (Bristow and Sutor)
N/A
21 August 2023 Warrant Request Accepted
A request to issue a warrant has been accepted by the Traffic Enforcement Centre. TfL can now instruct a Bailiff agent to recover any outstanding debt.
30 May 2023 Notice of Debt Registration Issued
A debt has been registered and an Order for Recovery has been issued.
30 May 2023 Debt Registration Accepted
The PCN has progressed and TfL has received authority to register a debt against this vehicle.
19 April 2023 Charge Certificate Batched
N/A
07 March 2023 PCN Batched
N/A
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It's very unlikely your brother has completed the forms correctly.
Put the pcn number in the TfL website and click on 'case history' and paste it here.
We will have a look to see if anything is untoward.
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This morning a bailiff turned up at my home asking for my brother, but he hasn't lived here for years.
V5 for his car is registered to my home address.
So was mail from TfL arriving at your address, passed to him ? The only place TfL get the name and address from is by enquiring from DVLA, quoting the car registration number.
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I'll post the documents later tonight.
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V5 for his car is registered to my home address.
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I suppose TfL are suggesting that, but he paid whatever he was asked to pay.
He's already sent off the form to TEC but needed to get a solicitor, magistrate or keeper of peace to sign it. I don't have a copy of the forms.
So the bailiff wants £354.00 in total. There is an Enforcement Visit charge of £235 but not sure if that is included in the balance, as they have not visited the correct property.
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And my question is - What address is on your brother's V5 Registration Certificate for his car ? That is where all the documents get sent to, as TfL obtain keeper and address from the DVLA, quoting the reg, number.
Also, until we see some documents he has received, we're in the dark.
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TfL are basically saying he paid on one of the following two days.
£250 is not an amount a bailiff would be seeking??????
+ show us the forms he has completed -- and don't send them yet!
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Hey all,
This morning a bailiff turned up at my home asking for my brother, but he hasn't lived here for years.
Story goes like this:
In March, my brother went into London and into the Congestion Zone with his car. On the same day, he then went online to TfL to pay the Congestion Zone Charge of £15, which is what the system said was the correct amount to pay.
Since then, TfL have sent the bailiffs to recover £250 from him for not paying the "correct" amount of £17.50. I'm not sure how TfL have followed up with my brother regarding correspondence, but he's informed TfL of what has happened, and filled in a Traffic Enforcement Centre form. However, the bailiffs are still threatening him, and have now come to my home.
The bailiff says my brother has two options: pay the £250 and appeal to reclaim the money; or they can remove goods and he can appeal to have them returned. I know I don't have to let the bailiffs into my home, and they cannot take any of my belongings.
My brother paid the original Congestion Zone Charge amount on time and in full. Now I'm having to deal with bailiffs.
What is the best course of action here?
Thanks!