Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Hamish on March 23, 2025, 05:08:54 pm
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Can someone please help me?
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Anyone please?
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Hi. I’ve managed to push this to the end of September. Can I please get confirmation from a more learned member than me that my points are ok?
Thanks!
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Any help please?
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8th August via Teams
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When is it?
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Can someone please help as my hearing at the tribunal is in a few days. I’d really appreciate it.
Thanks!
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Hi all
My hearing with London Tribunals is on August 8th. I'd like to recap the following about what I am going to say at the hearing:
- The evidence that was provided was in DVD format which is not an accessible format these days. Furthermore, TFL are the only authority as far as I know that do not provide video evidence/footage online
- All the evidence that has been provided does not show me passing an actual No-Left-Turn sign, however TFL, as part of their evidence pack, have sent me the following pictures in the link below, which shows a no left turn sign on the traffic light, as well as the signage before the traffic light, however again, there is no evidence showing my car passing this sign as the time of the alleged offence, therefore that sign may not have been there at that time.
Furthermore, in the evidence pack, they have also state that "That the signage is not directly visible is due to the angle of the fixed camera, but there is no requirement that the signage be visible from the camera, only that we are able to demonstrate its presence and compliance with the restrictions." Surely this isn't correct? Shouldn't the evidence directly show the signage too?
Evidence link here - https://imgur.com/a/aL2hLXS
Is there anything else I can say?
Thanks
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Some help please? I have to submit the form to London tribunals tonight.
Would really appreciate some support. Thanks
Just state that you rely on your formal representations to TfL. We can tweak it a bit before the hearing, but get it resistered.
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Some help please? I have to submit the form to London tribunals tonight.
Would really appreciate some support. Thanks
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Sorry to keep nudging this thread, but I have to submit my response to London tribunals by tomorrow. Can anyone please confirm what I should write on the form?
Thank you!
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Your maximum exposure would be £160. There would be no TfL costs, the system is structured so as to make cost awards very difficult.
Thanks! That’s a relief!
So am I ok submitting an appeal based on what I’ve said above:
- No DVD player
- Evidence just not show me passing the actual sign
TFL have provided an image of a sign, but haven’t said when it is from? Also, what proof do they have that that sign was there on the time/date the incursion took place?
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Your maximum exposure would be £160. There would be no TfL costs, the system is structured so as to make cost awards very difficult.
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Hi everyone.
My representation was rejected.
The official notice of rejection is here - https://imgur.com/a/xZ1nL6f
As you can see, they’ve not said much about the dvd point, and also they’ve provided a picture of the road sign that says no left turn.
Therefore, can I still appeal on the basis that the rule is that the evidence must show me passing the no left sign, as their still images do not show me passing the sign they have taken a picture of (which seems to be a fair way back from the actual traffic light/junction). Furthermore, can I still make an appeal based on the dvd point?
Also, if I lose at the London tribunal, will I be forced to pay £160 plus TFL’s costs? Basically what I’m asking is, what is the most I would need to pay if I lost?
Thanks!
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Thanks. I’ll submit now!
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I suggest you write on what you have outined in your previous post.
1. I was turning left into the restriction, but saw no advance sign warning of the restriction before making the turn.
2. A motorist turning left at a busy road junction in a city like London must concentrate on safely turning the vehicle, bearing in mind possible pedestrian and cycle traffic. This means any restrictions on entry should be made plain to the motorist from a distance. It is common practice where streets are restricted to provide advance notice where entry can involve making a left, or indeed right, turn so that the driver is aware of them and can thus avoid making the turn during the restricted hours.
3. The sole evidence of the contravention is a recording from a CCTV camera. Unlike every council in London, TfL do not make the evidence available on-line, but insist on sending a DVD on request. It is common knowledge that all modern computer equipment available in the retail market, (lap-tops, PCs etc), no longer contain DVD drives. I am therefore unable to view your evidence that you would present to London Tribunals if this matter ends up there for a decision. This is therefore an unfair practice, and hence TfL fail in their duty of fairness as a public body.
I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled.
Thank you very much! Should I also mention that the still images (and by the power of deduction, the video that it is taken from) do not show me passing by a "no left turn" sign, and instead show me turning left at the junction?
Yu can do, but be aware that the traffic signal heads have 'no left turn' signs on them. I had another look at the thread, and I'm now not sure whether adance warning is a good argument bearing in mind the traffic signal heads have very prominent "no left turn" signs on them and these are seen before you make the turn. SO I have to say, that the only points you can make are (1) none of their photos show you passing a 'no left turn' sign' and (2) the DVD and issue of fairness as DVD players are now no longer in retail computer equipment.
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I suggest you write on what you have outined in your previous post.
1. I was turning left into the restriction, but saw no advance sign warning of the restriction before making the turn.
2. A motorist turning left at a busy road junction in a city like London must concentrate on safely turning the vehicle, bearing in mind possible pedestrian and cycle traffic. This means any restrictions on entry should be made plain to the motorist from a distance. It is common practice where streets are restricted to provide advance notice where entry can involve making a left, or indeed right, turn so that the driver is aware of them and can thus avoid making the turn during the restricted hours.
3. The sole evidence of the contravention is a recording from a CCTV camera. Unlike every council in London, TfL do not make the evidence available on-line, but insist on sending a DVD on request. It is common knowledge that all modern computer equipment available in the retail market, (lap-tops, PCs etc), no longer contain DVD drives. I am therefore unable to view your evidence that you would present to London Tribunals if this matter ends up there for a decision. This is therefore an unfair practice, and hence TfL fail in their duty of fairness as a public body.
I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled.
Thank you very much! Should I also mention that the still images (and by the power of deduction, the video that it is taken from) do not show me passing by a "no left turn" sign, and instead show me turning left at the junction?
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I suggest you write on what you have outined in your previous post.
1. I was turning left into the restriction, but saw no advance sign warning of the restriction before making the turn.
2. A motorist turning left at a busy road junction in a city like London must concentrate on safely turning the vehicle, bearing in mind possible pedestrian and cycle traffic. This means any restrictions on entry should be made plain to the motorist from a distance. It is common practice where streets are restricted to provide advance notice where entry can involve making a left, or indeed right, turn so that the driver is aware of them and can thus avoid making the turn during the restricted hours.
3. The sole evidence of the contravention is a recording from a CCTV camera. Unlike every council in London, TfL do not make the evidence available on-line, but insist on sending a DVD on request. It is common knowledge that all modern computer equipment available in the retail market, (lap-tops, PCs etc), no longer contain DVD drives. I am therefore unable to view your evidence that you would present to London Tribunals if this matter ends up there for a decision. This is therefore an unfair practice, and hence TfL fail in their duty of fairness as a public body.
I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled.
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Hi all
Really appreciate the help everyone has given so far, but would it be possible to please get a response? What should I submit in the formal representation?
Thanks!
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Thanks all. I was told by TFL today that I would not receive the DVD in another video format, as DVDs are the only way these are sent out. I was then told that I could make a formal representation, at which point if it is rejected, it will go to the Adjudicator.
Therefore, what should I be mentioning in my formal representation? Is it the following:
- I don't have an accessible means of playing the DVD, and even if they use Google Street View to show the NLT sign, that just proves that the sign existed in 2022 (the last time Google took a photo of that street), and not at the time of the alleged infraction
- Also, as Incandescent pointed out, the still images from the camera doesn't show me disobeying the actual violation, because the NLT signs are not shown in the images, as the camera is looking down onto the box junction.
Thanks for all of your help so far, please let me know what to say as TFL have advised that my 14 day discount period expired today.
Thanks!
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There's a recent case on here where the adjudicator allowed the appeal because appellan could not view the DVD. So if it were me, I would take them to London Tribunals. TfL needs to be brought up on what is really sharp practice. There is absolutely nothing to stop them putting their videos on the same website used by London councils.
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Sorry for another message. My 14-day limit expires today and I don’t know what to say.
Should I state that I’m unable to view the DVD as I don’t have a dvd player?
Or, should I mention that from the images (and therefore it is highly likely this will be the same for the video as the images are stills from the video), I can’t see the no left turn sign being shown in the images, which as per my understanding have to be shown in the evidence in order to be upheld?
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Hi all. Sorry for another message, however my 14-day 2nd-run expires tomorrow and I need to know what to do in terms of next steps please. Thanks!
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Hi everyone
The DVD has arrived but I have no way of playing it, let alone extracting it, as I don’t have the technical know how to do that.
Should I therefore appeal based on the fact that I don’t have a way to play a DVD, or, and this is purely going off of the still images that are provided, can I state that the images and video do not show the “no turning left” sign within the frames?
Thanks all
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Try to find somebody with a DVD player on their PCN. If you can extract the video, post it here.
However, the main point that would seem to destroy any case you might have, is that the traffic lights have "No Left Turn" signs on them : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9YsYRCbpqEQuiBWAA
However, their camera doesn't show you disobeying them because the NLT signs are not shown as the camera is looking down onto the junction. This might form an appeal, and there may be a 'technical' appeal also.
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Thanks. They’ve said DVD is on the way and the PCN is on pause for 14 days.
What do I do now when the DVD arrives?
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If you haven't already done so, call them and ask for the video. It doesnt matter if you can't read it, but it gives you more time to get some representations together. The alternative is to submit some reps today via email or their webpage that accepts reps.
They will re-offer the discount when they reject them.
Or you can join The Mugged Club and pay-up.
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The 14th day for my 50% discount expires tomorrow, so I really want to know what the next steps are please? Thanks
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There's no court - it's a tribunal and the most you can lose is the full penalty charge of £160.
TFL doesn't contest a lot of cases.
Have a look on the tribunal register to see if there any cases at this location.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
Hi. Sorry to ask again, but do you mind telling me what my next steps should be? Thanks
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There's no court - it's a tribunal and the most you can lose is the full penalty charge of £160.
TFL doesn't contest a lot of cases.
Have a look on the tribunal register to see if there any cases at this location.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
Thanks, so in terms of next steps, which option do I tick? Or do I just call TFL and ask for video evidence?
From the options that are given on the PCN, I can't really tell which one is related to me asking for video evidence? Do I tick 'there was no contravention'?
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There's no court - it's a tribunal and the most you can lose is the full penalty charge of £160.
TFL doesn't contest a lot of cases.
Have a look on the tribunal register to see if there any cases at this location.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
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See this case but it's for a box junction, where video evidence is critical.
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https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tfl-and-dvds-their-technology-clock-is-ticking/
Thanks. I'm guessing video evidence is critical for box junctions, as a still image doesn't prove if the car was stationary at the time. I'll still request a DVD and see what happens, but would I need to fight this all the way to court and hope TFL don't show up? IF they do show up and I lose, what sort of costs am I looking at?
Thanks
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See this case but it's for a box junction, where video evidence is critical.
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https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tfl-and-dvds-their-technology-clock-is-ticking/
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TFL sends videos by DVD and you have to ask for it. If you haven't a way to play a DVD that has become an appeal point but probablyy more so for say box junction contraventions. They can supply dated pictures of the signage not seen in the videos and adjudicators will look at Google Maps.
Thanks. Should I request a DVD? I actually don't have a way to play a DVD (I have an iphone, laptop and tablet, none of which have a CD/DVD drive).
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TFL sends videos by DVD and you have to ask for it. If you haven't a way to play a DVD that has become an appeal point but probablyy more so for say box junction contraventions. They can supply dated pictures of the signage not seen in the videos and adjudicators will look at Google Maps.
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Hi all
I recently received a PCN for 'Performing a prohibited left turn (no left turn)'. This is Contravention Code 50L. This took place in SW London, heading Westbound on Atkins Avenue, with the junction of Kings avenue (Google Streetview here - https://maps.app.goo.gl/LLi9HpbYef2gRr6g7)
PCN Notice is here - https://imgur.com/a/IL9GjNi
The 3 photos of my contravention are all here - https://imgur.com/a/exAr7Wm. There is no video on the TFL PCN website for me to view.
Can I appeal this PCN on the basis of the following:
- My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that TFL need to demonstrate evidence of before, during and after the contravention. Specifically the vehicle approaching the sign, making a prohibited manoeuvre and continuing. Therefore, does TFL not need to show a video which shows my car making the left turn, as well as the 'no left turn' sign clearly indicated in the video? On the TFL website, there is no video for me to view, only the photos I have uploaded, and these photos do not show the 'No left turn' sign
Are there any other ways I can appeal this?
Thanks!