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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: mkdon on March 13, 2025, 03:45:21 pm

Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on April 11, 2025, 12:53:32 pm
hi

just a quick update, on the 22nd March, i got an email from the Waltham forest neighbourhood team ( they issued the ticket) saying they will investigate ( ive pasted their response below). today i got a letter saying ive not paid or appealed and thus have till 22nd April or else theyll take legal action.  Even as of today the FPN isnt recognised on the website and when i spoke to the parking team 3 weeks ago they said it is most likely the ticket has been cancelled.

WHat can i do now if they still persist in taking me to court? i assume i am fine as i got email proof of contacting them as well as the website not finding the FPN.






Hi ****,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

This has been passed on to the relevant team so the issue which is stopping you appealing online can be investigated and resolved.

 

Once we have an update, we will email to you let you know.

 

Many thanks,

 

Reece Bagnall (He/Him)

Customer Service and Performance Manager

Resident Experience and Business Support | Stronger Communities

London Borough of Waltham Forest

Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 17, 2025, 11:39:21 am

Hi

I tried appealing today, but it kept saying FPN now found (see link below). i then emailed the contact email provided and it bounces back saying not accepting emails (see link). exactly how much by law, do i have to try to get hold of them? if you ring they make you wait for ages to speak to someone.  if i save the proof below i tried appealing and emailing will they accept it once time lapses?


https://imgur.com/a/DoHi5qy

https://imgur.com/0QXTB1z
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 16, 2025, 02:42:48 pm
Is this OK to send off tomorrow?
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 15, 2025, 10:16:37 pm
Cool il stick with this line . Was my draft appeal ok?
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: H C Andersen on March 15, 2025, 03:36:06 pm
Advice: pl stop parking there. But you seem to question this despite the absolutely clear provisions of the GLC(General Powers) Act 1974 being explained.

You then suggest that because others are, possibly without lawful authority, parking there this in some way justifies you doing so.  It doesn't.

You then look at the posted legislation and refer to a provision which has no bearing, namely that applying to Penalty Charge Notices when your case involves a Fixed Penalty Notice.

I say again, the person liable is the PERSON who permitted or caused the offence unlike with penalty charge notices where the liable party is the OWNER(presumed to be the registered keeper). If you tell the council you were driving then liability rests with you. If not, then with whoever drove which after such a period has elapsed you cannot recall.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 15, 2025, 11:08:59 am
Ps

I know others doing it isn't a legitimate excuse but even just today I saw two delivery vans parked same spot as me unloading stuff for the store.  Now I'm not sure if they'll get a ticket or not but if they are excused then can't I argue there should be signs to clarify ONLY delivery vans are allowed to stop/park up there
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 15, 2025, 10:39:55 am
ive made the following draft, do i need to add/remove anything?

I wish to appeal this FPN (ref) I received on the 12th March and dated 10th March on the following grounds,

Firstly, the alleged offence took place on 9th  Oct 2024 which was over 5 months ago,  many drivers have access to this car and I have no recollection of who was driving the car at the time.  The liability lies with the driver and not the owner.  What/why makes you assume it was me who was driving

Secondly, the information on the FPN is wrong. It says I was parked on Guildway road,  ive never parked on that road before. The picture show the car was actually on Billet Road.

I thus believe this FPN to be invalid and look forward to you cancelling the ticket

Regards
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: CharlieVictor33 on March 15, 2025, 09:01:16 am
Does this section not prevent them from issuing after 28 days?

Surely if this went to court a magistrate would want to know why it took them so long to bring up up the offence?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: Incandescent on March 14, 2025, 10:00:24 pm
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/enacted
Many thanks
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: H C Andersen on March 14, 2025, 08:01:46 pm
Person, person, person.......

Not keeper owner.

The LLA etc.. Act cannot and does not change the offence - which is committed by a person - simply by whom it may be enforced and how.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: john_s_wf on March 14, 2025, 06:08:27 pm
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/enacted
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: Incandescent on March 14, 2025, 05:52:48 pm
Under what legislation are the council able to serve an FPN for this offence ? Surely only the police can do so ?Their letter only mentions the Highways Act 1980
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: H C Andersen on March 14, 2025, 02:36:17 pm
As you understand it, liability lies with the person who was driving and because it's been 5 months you, as keeper, cannot recall who was driving at the time and date because in your case your wife also drives. Similarly, you don't understand how the council know who was driving after all this time. To add to your confusion the location given in the notice seems to conflict with the photo because ........
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 02:18:35 pm
Apologies I miscounted the months.

Go with Mr Anderson's approach and lose the attitude - pavement parking is not on and you must stop doing it.


cool, il draft up an email and share it before sending. so just to confirm i should just stick to fact they got the road name wrong and its been 5 months thus i cant recall who was driving?
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: stamfordman on March 14, 2025, 02:16:27 pm
Apologies I miscounted the months.

Go with Mr Anderson's approach and lose the attitude - pavement parking is not on and you must stop doing it.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 02:00:44 pm
https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/neighbourhoods/3gs

FPNs seem worse than pcns. If they don't accept your appeal next step is magistrates court and risk of "criminal conviction".

yh they are total scumbags, atm my best defence would be wrong road name and maybe fact its been over 5 months and thus how can i recall who it was driving at the time.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: john_s_wf on March 14, 2025, 01:44:14 pm
https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/neighbourhoods/3gs

FPNs seem worse than pcns. If they don't accept your appeal next step is magistrates court and risk of "criminal conviction".
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 01:29:39 pm
That is correct.  My car was more in front of the parcel pickup/drop-off lockers.

As for it being 5 months and not 6, isn't this this way beyond the 14 days they are meant to issue it?, how do they expect anyone to know who drove car 5 months ago?,
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: ManxTom on March 14, 2025, 01:27:46 pm
Thanks

I think I'm just sticking with line about it being over 6 months and also wrong road name provided.

I think a previous poster was mistaken saying it was over 6 months.  It isn't - it's over 5 months.  But yes, it would seem to be the wrong road.

[Edit: cross-posted with Mr chips]
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: ManxTom on March 14, 2025, 01:23:32 pm
I was between hot wings and nimika best food and wines

So looking at the council photo you were parked just slightly in front of where the person in the checked shirt is, level with the zig-zag line, and you were just straddling the brick-paved part of the pavement and the cycle lane?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5996345,-0.0295789,3a,75y,13.49h,76.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smocGhPi5unZdiV91La-CCA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D13.768419591459946%26panoid%3DmocGhPi5unZdiV91La-CCA%26yaw%3D13.48592672573566!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

And it wasn't Guildsway...
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: MrChips on March 14, 2025, 01:09:32 pm
5 months, not 6
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 01:04:23 pm
Thanks

I think I'm just sticking with line about it being over 6 months and also wrong road name provided.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: H C Andersen on March 14, 2025, 12:33:08 pm
You can't have DYL and zig-zags co-existing in the same length of street. They've lost the plot, but it doesn't bear upon your issue other than perhaps to suggest why the eejits think they can pursue the registered keeper of a car for a driver's offence 5 months after the event.

Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: john_s_wf on March 14, 2025, 12:11:04 pm
From the council photo between where the old single yellow and white zigzag line was (if this helps)


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 11:41:36 am
I was between hot wings and nimika best food and wines
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: ManxTom on March 14, 2025, 11:33:40 am
Hi

Below is the link

https://maps.app.goo.gl/r3ogYVYkX5efyeia6

I dnt get it. Every day all day people are stopping there. In past week or so they've harder yellow blips on curb but that will only mean no parking on curb/road no?

Apologies if you have already answered this, but where exactly were you parked?

Was it outside Hot wings, or Billet Fish bar, or B's Barber, or where? 

Which side of the road were you on?

Were you parked on the pavement?

The photo from the council seems to show zig-zag lines for a pedestrian crossing which suggest you were parked on the pavement right at the junction with Guildsway.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 11:17:42 am
Sorry to cut to the chase, but will you pl get away from exemptions to 'footway parking', they're irrelevant in this case. That offence is statutory and doesn't require any signs, a driver is presumed to know as a condition of holding a licence.

The allegation here is that you committed an offence under s137 HA.

137 Penalty for wilful obstruction.
(1)If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence and liable to [F1imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51 weeks or] a fine [F2or both].

Local authorities are able to deal with this under Deregulation Powers i.e. FPN, but the offence remains the same. So IMO the question is: who is liable?

And IMO it's only the 'person[who] without lawful authority....obstructs free passage..'.

IMO, don't argue the toss about what is a subjective matter, why are YOU being deemed liable? The events happened 5 months ago.

Assuming that this is absolutely the first you've heard of this matter, I'd go back to the named person and:

Refer to their letter;
Say you've looked up the relevant section and ask why the council think you caused or permitted the car to be parked in this way. The events took place over 5 months ago and this is the first you've heard of the matter. You cannot be expected to know who was driving at that time on that day (does your wife drive the car) any more than the council does. In addition, even the events as set out seem conflicting because the location looks like if it's situated in *** Road whereas .......

You'd like clarification.

And stop* parking there unless you want to risk a PCN for footway parking.


*- you or anyone else driving your vehicle because footway parking is keeper liability, not 'person' (driver) as in HA.

Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle.

hi yes i am the registered driver and my wife drives it too.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: H C Andersen on March 14, 2025, 11:08:43 am
Sorry to cut to the chase, but will you pl get away from exemptions to 'footway parking', they're irrelevant in this case. That offence is statutory and doesn't require any signs, a driver is presumed to know as a condition of holding a licence.

The allegation here is that you committed an offence under s137 HA.

137 Penalty for wilful obstruction.
(1)If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence and liable to [F1imprisonment for a term not exceeding 51 weeks or] a fine [F2or both].

Local authorities are able to deal with this under Deregulation Powers i.e. FPN, but the offence remains the same. So IMO the question is: who is liable?

And IMO it's only the 'person[who] without lawful authority....obstructs free passage..'.

IMO, don't argue the toss about what is a subjective matter, why are YOU being deemed liable? The events happened 5 months ago.

Assuming that this is absolutely the first you've heard of this matter, I'd go back to the named person and:

Refer to their letter;
Say you've looked up the relevant section and ask why the council think you caused or permitted the car to be parked in this way. The events took place over 5 months ago and this is the first you've heard of the matter. You cannot be expected to know who was driving at that time on that day (does your wife drive the car) any more than the council does. In addition, even the events as set out seem conflicting because the location looks like if it's situated in *** Road whereas .......

You'd like clarification.

And stop* parking there unless you want to risk a PCN for footway parking.


*- you or anyone else driving your vehicle because footway parking is keeper liability, not 'person' (driver) as in HA.

Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 10:52:35 am
honestly? because i didnt know it was illegal to park there. id been doing it for years as have 100s of others. even yesteday and this morning cars were parked there. plus i was literally only out the car for 2mins,  the road is a bus main road and if parked on the double yellows then it would cause traffic as 1 lane would be blocked
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: john_s_wf on March 14, 2025, 10:34:16 am
Did you satisfy all corresponding parts of 3c or 3d?

Also, I have to ask, if your wife was in the car & you had a blue badge, why didn't you just legally park in the road or one of the many parking spots or blue badge spots within a few tens of metres?
Those of us who walk to these shops and have children who walk along here hate all of the pavement parking.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 10:17:26 am
Ps does anyone know any legitimate reasons if and when someone can park/stop on pavement?

Quote
Save as provided in subsections (3), (4), (7) and (11), any person who causes or permits any vehicle to be parked in Greater London with one or more wheels [F2on or over any part of a road] other than a carriageway [F3, or on or over a footpath,] shall be guilty of an offence

You can find the relevant exemptions here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/section/15



thanks for that, it says on the site you wont be penalised if "the vehicle was not left unattended at any time while it was so parked; or".  As my wife was also in the car and had the keys plus i was only metres away and had constant view of the car, will this be sufficient? had there been a need to move either of us would have been able to move the car in matter of seconds
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: Dave Green on March 14, 2025, 10:06:16 am
Ps does anyone know any legitimate reasons if and when someone can park/stop on pavement?

Quote
Save as provided in subsections (3), (4), (7) and (11), any person who causes or permits any vehicle to be parked in Greater London with one or more wheels [F2on or over any part of a road] other than a carriageway [F3, or on or over a footpath,] shall be guilty of an offence

You can find the relevant exemptions here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/section/15
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 14, 2025, 04:37:06 am
Ps does anyone know any legitimate reasons if and when someone can park/stop on pavement?
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 13, 2025, 05:06:23 pm
I will use that in my appeal to. They given name of the bus stop. Guildway road is the side road opposite I was parked. 

Will they not just respond by saying we given location of where you were parked according to the bus stop?
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: john_s_wf on March 13, 2025, 05:02:47 pm
Others will good better advice but I've pointed out that the road given is wrong. That may be helpful.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 13, 2025, 04:52:50 pm
Thanks

Il wait  a few days in case others can help. I don't see why they can't just put sign saying no stopping/parking. Every day 100s are parked there.

Also image shows my son waiting in car, will this help my case? Also fact hat it was only few mins and I was within 10 meters from car when collecting the takeaway
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: stamfordman on March 13, 2025, 04:44:52 pm
Footway parking has been banned in London since the 1970s and applies to all public-accessible areas off the carriageway.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 13, 2025, 04:42:23 pm
Even if I'm parked on pavement close to the shops and left plenty of space of both cyclists and pedestrians?, seems unfair to give ticket for this. There are no signs and barely there for 5mins

Also online it says its only wilful if after being told to move I refuse to do so
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: stamfordman on March 13, 2025, 04:39:54 pm
You need to keep off the footway. As of Maps view, you can park with no problem on the carriageway on the single yellow line after whatever time its restriction stops - 6.30pm in this zone.

With a blue badge you get 3 hours at any time provided they've not made it no loading as you indicate but a timeplate will tell you when loading applies.

I'm sure someone will help with the FPN but usually these have to be paid.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: john_s_wf on March 13, 2025, 04:38:57 pm
Isn't the location wrong? It's billet road. The bus stop is guildsway.
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 13, 2025, 04:28:41 pm
Hi

Below is the link

https://maps.app.goo.gl/r3ogYVYkX5efyeia6

I dnt get it. Every day all day people are stopping there. In past week or so they've harder yellow blips on curb but that will only mean no parking on curb/road no?
Title: Re: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: stamfordman on March 13, 2025, 04:23:43 pm
This is very unusual - it looks like footway parking, which would normally be dealt with by a PCN.

The late issuing of this FPN is also odd. I think they have 6 months to serve it and this is a day over.

What is the Google Maps location?
Title: Waltham forest. Section 137 Wilful obstruction of highway
Post by: mkdon on March 13, 2025, 03:45:21 pm
Hi all

Can someone please help me. I've just received a pcn from the council today (13.03.25) for something that happened on 09.10.24.

I have attached all the documents they have provided.  Basically I have been stopping here 2 or 3 times a week for past 5 years  or so as do 100s as there are a parade of shops and takeaways. max I usually stay for is 5mins as I usually order food ahead.

Today they sent me this and saying they will also fine for every other time I've parked here.

There are no signs to say no parking or stopping. There is a bike lane and as the picture shows i park so that there lane is left

I've not responded to them. Is there anything I can say to get it cancelled? For what it's worth I usually have my son with me who's autistic and a blue badge holder

Also from Google it says max they can charge is £50 yet they charging me £100.


https://imgur.com/a/5SGfKRz


[attachment deleted by admin]