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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Y H on March 12, 2025, 01:19:19 am

Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on April 22, 2025, 09:34:16 pm
@Y H draft a representation against the notice to owner, put it on here and we'll review it for you.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Incandescent on April 21, 2025, 11:42:38 pm
Your next step, (apart from coughing-up), is to submit a formal representation against the PCN. Only when this is refused, can you register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. Of course they may accept it !
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on April 21, 2025, 05:30:36 pm
I received a Notice To Owner. What is my next step?
Thank you

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on April 08, 2025, 09:52:07 pm
For later:

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SsqVRa8NrcE_x6YyCT0XWZ7EWhI42IQ2/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Evening Charges and Sunday Charges Variation) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NaAC4vzFjO-frxIOsl8VG1waFo7qPmq-/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Spillers Car Park Variation) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x5_pcteIkurwsgUbUSJpjB3hHTm84HdG/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Cashless Parking Variation) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O_DB_jRqJK9E90cLsvyY8AveD8zQTAlS/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Castle Farm and Paddy Freemans Variation) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RqHECU2RvHB67b5qtfI4xEf1o466fLrh/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Spillers Car Park — Opening Hours Variation) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wV0AjfFnW0QCcYISFkcE0OBLQCxWNCxM/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Spillers Car Park — Parking Permit Variation) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tVwXyjZ_yAwYXd3pDjO2lEHiFwAWCZC2/view)

The City of Newcastle upon Tyne (Off Street Parking Places) Order 2021 (Off-Street Car Parks Variation) Order 2024 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/18GlJpX2nuyvm5pMc0lWHIaY-AECoLqQO/view)
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 23, 2025, 05:55:47 pm
OK thank you
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 23, 2025, 05:47:36 pm
What is my next step?
As per reply 27 above, you need to wait for the notice to owner.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 23, 2025, 05:38:12 pm
What is my next step?
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 23, 2025, 05:04:07 pm
It's part of your evidence. Not just that they are receipts for failed transactions, but that the sums indicated as being tendered were not which clearly indicates a fault with the machines i.e. not able to recognise inputs accurately on every occasion.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 23, 2025, 04:44:02 pm
OP, I'm going to ask this again:

You posted evidence in the form of two receipts issued by the on-site machines which showed failed transactions.

Each of these was for an amount of money which when converted to time through the tariff would have given parking times in excess of the max. permitted.

These amounts are printed clearly on the receipts.

You claim a malfunction with their machines.

If you did not enter £14.02 and 14.09 respectively but the machine read what you entered as these amounts then clearly the machines were at fault.

If you entered these amounts, you were at fault.

These has nothing to do with the council, so don't ask them!

This is about you and the machines.

I did not enter these amounts. So clearly the machines were at fault.
Where does this take me to?
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 23, 2025, 04:35:01 pm
Hi,

This is the latest I have heard from Newcastle city council. Is there anything I could be doing now?

"Flowbird have had an initial look and couldn’t find anything of note. So likely just to be a communications issue. However, they will keep investigating next week and will let me know if they find anything different"
Keep all these communications.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 23, 2025, 04:20:29 pm
OP, I'm going to ask this again:

You posted evidence in the form of two receipts issued by the on-site machines which showed failed transactions.

Each of these was for an amount of money which when converted to time through the tariff would have given parking times in excess of the max. permitted.

These amounts are printed clearly on the receipts.

You claim a malfunction with their machines.

If you did not enter £14.02 and 14.09 respectively but the machine read what you entered as these amounts then clearly the machines were at fault.

If you entered these amounts, you were at fault.

These has nothing to do with the council, so don't ask them!

This is about you and the machines.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 23, 2025, 03:38:32 pm
Hi,

This is the latest I have heard from Newcastle city council. Is there anything I could be doing now?

"Flowbird have had an initial look and couldn’t find anything of note. So likely just to be a communications issue. However, they will keep investigating next week and will let me know if they find anything different"
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 18, 2025, 12:24:35 am
OK thank you. So i will carry on with the case
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 17, 2025, 11:28:07 pm
All litigation carries an element of risk, but you have a very strong case. There is a payment mechanism provided by the authority that simply did not work and the council is trying to penalise you for that, most adjudicators would allow the appeal in those circumstances.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 17, 2025, 11:26:20 pm
What chance do you think I have of winning the case?

I only have 4 more days to take advantage of paying the discounted rate of the penalty charge.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 17, 2025, 11:14:46 pm
What do you mean by notice to owner?
If you've received an informal rejection, the next step in the process is for the council to send you a notice to owner, which goes to the registered keeper at the address held by DVLA. You can then make a formal representation (assuming you're the registered keeper) and if that representation is rejected, you can appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 17, 2025, 11:05:54 pm
What do you mean by notice to owner?

Attached are pictures of the payment machine.
Now that I have gone back, i remember seeing the sign to pay by phone on the machine, but not seeing a pay by phone number to call.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 17, 2025, 09:05:04 pm
Honestly I don't think you need to ask the council anything, you have two paper receipts and their logs, as well as the bank saying they have no record of the transactions. In the circumstances it would be for the council to explain to the tribunal why this isn't their fault. You just need to let us know once you get the notice to owner.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 17, 2025, 05:31:53 pm
I'm also very confused why the declined payments are showing on the receipts for more than £0.00.

Please can you help me work the question to the council I do not know the exact terminology to use.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 17, 2025, 03:49:36 pm
I would ask the question again...you have two declined transactions for amounts which appear to exceed the max. payable at the site. Could this have been the reason for refusal i.e. you had input parking rights requirements which were not available?

Cannot of course be a question for the council, it's a question for the OP who posted evidence of two failed transactions (we now now there were 3) for amounts which exceeded the maximum payable at the site - £14.02 and £14.09. OP, I don't see how this issue can simply be ignored in the context.

Their log doesn't get to the nub of this issue because it allocates £0.00 to every failed transaction, not the actual sums entered at the input stage.

Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 17, 2025, 03:14:26 pm
I would go back to the council and ask what caused the failed payments to fail.

I would ask your bank the same question.

Below is the reply I got. He is out of office till Wednesday so I hope to get a further update then,

[attachimg=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 13, 2025, 03:36:12 pm
I chose the option to pay on the way out where they calculate how long I was there for.
As you can see in the screenshot attached, the amount declined was for £0.00  [attachimg=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 03:33:04 pm
I would ask the question again...
@H C Andersen you do this a lot, saying informal rejections should be followed by further informal representations. Can you think of a single example where this has not proven to be a complete waste of time? I am not aware of any case where a second round of informal representations has seen a PCN cancelled and I don't think we should waste OP's time with pointless endeavours.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 13, 2025, 03:17:20 pm
I forgot that informal reps have been rejected.

I would ask the question again...you have two declined transactions for amounts which appear to exceed the max. payable at the site. Could this have been the reason for refusal i.e. you had input parking rights requirements which were not available?
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 13, 2025, 02:21:01 pm
OK thank understood. I'll get some pictures after the weekend
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 01:34:42 pm
From what I understand do I have until 21st March?
You don't have a deadline as such, but the penalty cannot increase before 21 March.

If the council issues a notice to owner you will get a further 28 days to make formal representations, but you can in principle make further informal representations before the notice to owner is served.

However experience teaches us that making a second round of informal representations is largely pointless as they are normally disregarded anyway. Getting some photos of the machine would be more useful for the purpose of making formal representations at the notice to owner stage.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 13, 2025, 01:28:19 pm

Informal reps have already been made, and there's an informal rejection on the opening post extending the discount to 21 March, so they can't serve the NTO before then. If they do, then it's an open and shut appeal on the penalty exceeds ground.
[/quote]

From what I understand do I have until 21st March?
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 13, 2025, 01:26:12 pm
I would go back to the council and ask what caused the failed payments to fail.

I would ask your bank the same question.

I have asked the council for the reason the payments failed.
I called the bank but they can’t see the failed payments from their end.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 12:43:49 pm
Contravention 20 Feb.

Last day of 28-day period: Sun. 16 March after which they could serve a NTO.

If you wait until after the weekend then you risk them disregarding any informal reps if they're quick off the mark with a NTO.
Informal reps have already been made, and there's an informal rejection on the opening post extending the discount to 21 March, so they can't serve the NTO before then. If they do, then it's an open and shut appeal on the penalty exceeds ground.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 13, 2025, 12:16:29 pm
Contravention 20 Feb.

Last day of 28-day period: Sun. 16 March after which they could serve a NTO.

If you wait until after the weekend then you risk them disregarding any informal reps if they're quick off the mark with a NTO.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 10:54:25 am
I would go back to the council and ask what caused the failed payments to fail.

I would ask your bank the same question.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 13, 2025, 10:20:11 am
Hi,

Please see attached the reply I received for the SAR.
[attach=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 13, 2025, 12:29:49 am
Ok thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 12:20:31 am
Thanks for that.

I may be able to get pictures of the machine, but it will be after the weekend.

That's OK, a notice to owner can't be served before the middle of next week anyway and even if it is served, it just means you get an extra 28 days to make formal representations against it.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 12, 2025, 11:58:42 pm
Thanks for that.

I may be able to get pictures of the machine, but it will be after the weekend.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 12, 2025, 10:03:39 pm
Is this OK to send for the SAR?

Please can I have a log of all payments and attempted payments made from the payment machine in Eldon Square MSCP on 20th February 2025, from my 2 cards.
1. Visa Debit ending ***7773
2. American express ending  ***1005

I would suggest you attach the two declined payment receipts and the pay & display ticket, and word the query as follows:

Dear Newcastle City Council,

I hereby request, under article 15 of GDPR, a log of all payments and attempted payments made from the pay and display machine in Eldon Square multi-storey car park on 20th February 2025, from my 2 cards.
1. Visa Debit ending ***7773
2. American express ending  ***1005

I attach receipt for three such transactions and I request a copy of all successful and failed payments logged for these two cards by the machine.

Yours faithfully,


You will also need to attach proof of address and proof of ID.

Will it be possible for you to go back and get some photos of the machine?
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 12, 2025, 09:43:24 pm
Ok thank you.

I have attached my PCN.


Is this OK to send for the SAR?

Please can I have a log of all payments and attempted payments made from the payment machine in Eldon Square MSCP on 20th February 2025, from my 2 cards.
1. Visa Debit ending ***7773
2. American express ending  ***1005

Thank you

(https://i.imgur.com/lSu1093.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/p0nuwAo.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nVPHTW0.jpeg)
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 12, 2025, 09:08:27 pm
The declined payments should not have been for any particular amount. There are 2 payment options. Either pay for a specific amount of time upon arrival, or login when upon arrival and put you card in the machine and on the way out tap your card again and it is charged for the amount of time you parked for. I chose the second option.

I simply looked at your evidence which shows those amounts. Whether they should or shouldn't..they do!

There was no-one around at the machine to help with the payment, but they suddenly appeared a few minutes later to give a parking fin..

Photos of served PCN @ 14.37.

Your last payment effort..14.10.

27 minutes is hardly 'a few minutes later'.

OP, we simply need the bald facts and leave it with us to do the best with these, to do which we need a sound and - as far as the authority are concerned- unchallengeable footing.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: cp8759 on March 12, 2025, 08:24:05 pm
@Y H please post the PCN, both sides in full, no redactions.

Please contact your bank and ask if they're able to confirm any failed payments. Also make a subject access request (https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/subject-access-requests/a-guide-to-subject-access/) to dataprotection@newcastle.gov.uk asking for a log of all payments and attempted payments made from the relevant machine 20 February 2025, from each of your two cards.

Here are the council photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/fsu6g1a.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fHLEqj3.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pGFCBum.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Lq9pnaZ.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BClcqyf.jpeg)

Is there any way you could go back and get photos of the machine? If there weren't any signs on the machine mentioning pay by phone, that removes that argument for the council.

In the meantime I will get hold of the parking places order.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Y H on March 12, 2025, 04:15:04 pm
I don't recall seeing the option to pay by phone. I just went for a quick appointment so figured I'll try again on the way out and if i dont manage there was an email address provided on the parking sign by the machine that I would email.
There was no-one around at the machine to help with the payment, but they suddenly appeared a few minutes later to give a parking fin

The declined payments should not have been for any particular amount. There are 2 payment options. Either pay for a specific amount of time upon arrival, or login when upon arrival and put you card in the machine and on the way out tap your card again and it is charged for the amount of time you parked for. I chose the second option.
As I wasn't able to pay on the way in, I paid for a specific amount of time on the way out to try cover the time I had been there.
Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: H C Andersen on March 12, 2025, 12:50:26 pm
The PCN pl.

2 declined payments of £14.07 and £14.02 at 14.09 and 14.10 respectively.

Actual payment of £1.94 at 14.47.

Why the discrepancy between amounts?

Title: Re: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square
Post by: Incandescent on March 12, 2025, 10:29:34 am
Any reason for not paying by phone ?
Title: Newcastle City Council - Code 73 - PCN because payment machine wasnt working so paid only on way out - Eldon square MSCP
Post by: Y H on March 12, 2025, 01:19:19 am
Hi,

I received a parking ticket through no fault of my own and need help appealing this. @cp8759
I by mistake wrote back to the council not realizing it was a mistake. :-\

Please see below the message I sent to appeal my fine. I have attached my evidence I sent them, as well as their reply. I would appreciate it if you would be able to advise me what my next step should be.

Google map link to location https://maps.app.goo.gl/tdS4Cs9Hk2ym6BRC8

Thank you

What I send to the council:
I parked my car in Eldon Square parking lot and went to the machine to pay. My card was declined so I tried again, but again it was declined. I had another card on me so I tried that card but it was not accepted as it was an Amex card. I checked my balance to see why my card was declined but there was plenty funds on my card so I could not work out why it was declined. I checked if I could pay cash but that was not an option.
There was no-one around to talk to, so with no other choice as I had an appointment to catch, I decided I would attend my appointment and try again on the way out. If it would not work, I would email the address on the poster.
I came back after my appointment and thankfully this time my card was accepted.
However, I came back to my car and was shocked to see I had gotten a parking ticket!
As I did pay and this issue was not a fault of my own, I am appealing the penalty. Thank you for your understanding

(https://i.imgur.com/kOcB0dy.jpeg)

[attachment deleted by admin]