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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Toba on March 11, 2025, 07:37:17 pm

Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: cp8759 on March 27, 2025, 07:43:59 pm
That's a complete failure to consider, that alone is reason enough for many adjudicators to allow an appeal. I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 27, 2025, 07:48:53 am
@John U.K

Thanks , I have given access now.you can check
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: John U.K. on March 27, 2025, 07:44:28 am
You need to allow access to the NoR, or use another hosting site such as imgur or ibb.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 27, 2025, 07:39:03 am
Quote from: Toba on March 12, 2025, 10:26:10 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on March 12, 2025, 10:18:13 pm
The box is substantially compliant so I wouldn't bother mentioning that it extends beyond the junction, even the most benevolent adjudicators would struggle to allow based on that. The right turn exemption obviously doesn't apply as you were not turning right out of the box, so I'd concentrate on the ground that actually has merit:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty demanded exceeded the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

A penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the penalty is payable and this must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is approximately three miles long and has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location.

As such the notice fails to adequately describe the location of the alleged contravention, I refer you to the case of Young v Day [1959] EWHC 1 (Admin) which is a binding High Court authority on this point.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.

Thanks for this. I really appreciate. So grateful. I'll give a feedback asap.

Hi All,

I appreciate your efforts. Just to give a feedback that the appeal was rejected.

Attached is the letter of rejection

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15rDREKBtCK1ZDLYFumGYphTEZxXmeykp/view?usp=drivesdk

Thank you for your inputs @MrChips @cp8759
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: MrChips on March 13, 2025, 01:10:59 am
On that basis my take would be as follows.  However, cp8759 is vastly more experienced than me in such matters so ultimately he should have the final say. EDIT - looks like he has while I was typing this  ;D
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 01:06:20 am
Arguing with the council over a comma is just silly, let it go.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: MrChips on March 13, 2025, 12:38:35 am
The PCN implies this is the street name. I agree it doesn't take much to deduce that they mean High Road in Chadwell Heath.  But they should then put a comma between them in my opinion.

Logging onto the Redbridge portal also literally states that Redbridge intended this to be the street name of the location.

I don't think we should major on this but I think it should be included to add weight to how poor it is as a stated location.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: cp8759 on March 13, 2025, 12:16:38 am
Quote from: MrChips on March 12, 2025, 10:50:44 pm
Don't send just yet, I'm on the way back from the Arsenal game.  I think we should include wording to the effect Redbridge claim the street is called High Road Chadwell Heath, not High Road.
That's not what the PCN says, it gives the description of the location as "High Road Chadwell Heath" and it is pretty obvious that this is a reference to a road called "High Road" that is in a location known as "Chadwell Heath". Whether that is true or accurate is another matter, but the PCN does not say the contravention occurred "In a road called High Road Chadwell Heath" and a representation to that effect would be frivolous. I certainly wouldn't want to defend such an argument in front of the adjudicator.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: MrChips on March 12, 2025, 10:50:44 pm
Don't send just yet, I'm on the way back from the Arsenal game.  I think we should include wording to the effect Redbridge claim the street is called High Road Chadwell Heath, not High Road.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 12, 2025, 10:26:10 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on March 12, 2025, 10:18:13 pm
The box is substantially compliant so I wouldn't bother mentioning that it extends beyond the junction, even the most benevolent adjudicators would struggle to allow based on that. The right turn exemption obviously doesn't apply as you were not turning right out of the box, so I'd concentrate on the ground that actually has merit:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty demanded exceeded the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

A penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the penalty is payable and this must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is approximately three miles long and has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location.

As such the notice fails to adequately describe the location of the alleged contravention, I refer you to the case of Young v Day [1959] EWHC 1 (Admin) which is a binding High Court authority on this point.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.

Thanks for this. I really appreciate. So grateful. I'll give a feedback asap.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: cp8759 on March 12, 2025, 10:18:13 pm
The box is substantially compliant so I wouldn't bother mentioning that it extends beyond the junction, even the most benevolent adjudicators would struggle to allow based on that. The right turn exemption obviously doesn't apply as you were not turning right out of the box, so I'd concentrate on the ground that actually has merit:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty demanded exceeded the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

A penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the penalty is payable and this must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is approximately three miles long and has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location.

As such the notice fails to adequately describe the location of the alleged contravention, I refer you to the case of Young v Day [1959] EWHC 1 (Admin) which is a binding High Court authority on this point.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 12, 2025, 09:10:43 pm
here is the Draft. kindly check and advice @MrChips , @cp8759. Thanks

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

Re PCN AF30618795

As the registered keeper of the vehicle,
I wish to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds "the contravention did not occur".


I understand a penalty charge notice must provide the grounds upon which the Council believes that the PCN is payable and this means it must include a sufficient description of the location. This PCN only states the location as the High Road, which is  a very long road and probably has a number of box junctions; as such it fails to adequately describe the location

I also note that the box marking extends beyond the junction. When I stopped, my vehicle was past the junction between the two roads. Therefore the council cannot enforce this PCN because a YBJ only has effect in the area covered by the junction of the roads

Finally, I entered the box in order to turn right (the indicator is flashing). The video stops before the car exits the box but the car did enter the box for the purpose of turning right and seems to have been prevented from completing its right by stationary vehicles also waiting to turn right (indicators flashing), in the right position; right filter, plus the position of the car did not cause any blockage or disruption to other road user, on this basis, no contravention occurred.

In summary, from the footage provided, it is clear that no contravention has occurred and I look forward to you cancelling the PCN at your earliest opportunity.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 12, 2025, 07:25:25 pm
Quote from: MrChips on March 12, 2025, 07:44:03 am
Thanks Toba.

I've had a quick look at the video and PCN.  Video looks tough to beat, it shows you entering the box and then having to stop due to stationary vehicles.  The box slightly extends past the natural junction in my view but I expect an adjudicator would say it's ok.

Re the PCN, it says the offence took place in "High Road Chadwell Heath (B)" - as far as I can tell there is no road with that name.  In the words of David Brent, "sometimes the complaints will be false".

Even ignoring the "(B)", there's no "High Road Chadwell Heath" either.  There is a High Road in Chadwell Heath but it extends for miles, has multiple junctions and definitely more than one box junction.  I think you might be able to challenge on the grounds that the PCN does not adequately state the grounds on which Redbridge believe the penalty is due.

Thank you for your contribution @MrChips. i will come up with a draft shorty and share for your perusal
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: MrChips on March 12, 2025, 08:19:56 am
Here's an adjudication (also Redbridge) won on a similar argument.  I think yours would potentially be an even stronger case as the location as stated doesn't actually exist in the first place, and also High Road is significantly longer than Goodmayes Road (over 3 miles long vs 0.25 miles long).

223033552A

PCN AF97410735
Contravention date 19 Jun 2023
Contravention time 13:46:00
Contravention location Goodmayes Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 17 Aug 2023
Adjudicator Edward Houghton
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The Appellant was represented by Mr Dishman. The grounds of Appeal are set out in Mr Dishman’s skeleton argument which he developed before me. Having considered the matter carefully it seems to me that at least one of the grounds of appeal has some merit. The location is described as Goodmayes Road; however Mr Dishman tells me, and I accept, that there are three box junctions in Goodmayes Road. |The PCN is required to set out the grounds on which a penalty is demanded, and this inevitably includes a clear statement of the location of the alleged contravention. Although it might be possible for a motorist to trace the location from the photographs with some effort the Council’s prior duty is to set it out clearly. There seems to me no good reason why the location could not simply be stated as Goodmayes road junction with (naming the adjacent road) as would routinely be done in the case of a road traffic summons in the Magistrates Court. As the PCN was defective no penalty may be demanded on the basis of it and the Appeal ids allowed.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: MrChips on March 12, 2025, 07:44:03 am
Thanks Toba.

I've had a quick look at the video and PCN.  Video looks tough to beat, it shows you entering the box and then having to stop due to stationary vehicles.  The box slightly extends past the natural junction in my view but I expect an adjudicator would say it's ok.

Re the PCN, it says the offence took place in "High Road Chadwell Heath (B)" - as far as I can tell there is no road with that name.  In the words of David Brent, "sometimes the complaints will be false".

Even ignoring the "(B)", there's no "High Road Chadwell Heath" either.  There is a High Road in Chadwell Heath but it extends for miles, has multiple junctions and definitely more than one box junction.  I think you might be able to challenge on the grounds that the PCN does not adequately state the grounds on which Redbridge believe the penalty is due.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 12, 2025, 04:03:10 am
Quote from: MrChips on March 11, 2025, 09:34:32 pm
I can't access those Google drive links - I think you need to update the permissions
@MrChips , I have updated the access now. Thanks. I appreciate
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 12, 2025, 04:00:26 am
Quote from: cp8759 on March 11, 2025, 11:10:32 pm
@Toba you need to change your Google drive sharing settings to public.
oh sorry. I have updated the access now. Thanks . I appreciate
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: cp8759 on March 11, 2025, 11:10:32 pm
@Toba you need to change your Google drive sharing settings to public.
Title: Re: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: MrChips on March 11, 2025, 09:34:32 pm
I can't access those Google drive links - I think you need to update the permissions
Title: London borough of Redbridge, 31j -Entering and stopping in a box junction, High Road Chadwell heath (B)
Post by: Toba on March 11, 2025, 07:37:17 pm
Hi Folks,

I received this PCN on March 6th . it happened on a high road with two yellow boxes few metres apart . I was turning right which I indicated turning right, there were oncoming cars and a series of cars in front waiting to also turn right so I had to slow down a bit and stop cos I knew I could stop on a yellow box when turning right if there were oncoming vehicles or cars waiting to also turn right plus I was not obstructing another oncoming vehicle.


Is there any advice or grounds for appeal? I have attached a link to the PCN jpegs and video below and street view

NOTE - I once got a PCN on this same road in Nov 2023, which I appealed and won, thanks to your inputs. However, this time around the video shows my car entering the box but didn’t show it on the appeal i won.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iQVb4U4ohKLDa9wU6

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11U7492dBZE4Gt-U9uWu59ONyuF3_umoA/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11cmFjVSGrE4Y7YizFfid_eiAKD19bQ0K/view?usp=drivesdk


@cp8759