Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: skywalks on March 07, 2025, 01:18:39 pm
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Just seen this after PM exchange. As ever, my absolute pleasure. Please spread the word. Kalo pasca. A rather economical with the truth reply as per usual.
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Hey all,
I just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who helped me with my PCN. I got a letter back from SCC today and they have cancelled the pcn and no charges needed to be made.
They said this was due to their discretion and it being my first ever charge, however I know that it was all down to the expertise provided here and especially by Hippocrates.
Thank you for the kindness and expertise provided! I truly appreciate it and will be finding ways to pay it forward.
Have a great easter weekend!
Big love
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Thank you so much, I will send this today. What grounds should i be choosing for this representation? (i.e. the letters listed on the back of PCN)
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@skywalks
Suggested reps.:
Dear S.C.C..
Following several phone calls, I make these formal representations against the PCN:
1. You, yourselves, are unclear as to whether the location is a bus lane or a bus gate.
2. The signage is confusing as the warning signage does not equate with the terminal signage.
3. There is a procedural impropriety as the PCN states you will send a Charge Certificate when the mandatory information states may. This not only fetters your discretion but also is a substantial departure from the statutory scheme.
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.
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Sent a PM. Please phone them re their policy to reoffer the discount if reps. are refused.
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I am just writing the FOIR re the camera.
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Okay, thank you!
I want to try send it in fairly promptly as I can as I want to make sure the discounted charge doesn't go up and I end up having to pay double. They also took nearly 3 weeks to send me the letter in the first place. But I will wait until you've had some more time to find the answers you're looking for.
By interchangeable signs do you mean that the rectangle or circle signs can be used for either a bus lane or bus gate?
It'll be important to add to the representation that 2 different SCC staff advised me to challenge it 1) Because they confirmed it was a bus gate and not a bus lane so the place listed is wrong and 2) the 2nd staff member was confused by the representation options on the back of the letter.
Thanks
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We have until 3rd April to make representations. A week before that to pay. I need to spend some more time on this and make a FOIR re the camera as advised by cp8759. The signs are interchangeable I am afraid.
The may/will issue is a valid point. I need to dig out some cases.
So, please wait and do not pay it.
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That would be great, thank you!
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Thanks for your patience. I am checking a few issues with cp8759 and will hopefully get back this evening.
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Great thank you for all the research you are doing! I really appreciate it. I'm hoping to send it by this evening, so I will check in later and clarify with you the other bits I should include E.g. What about the website is wrong? And the other areas you've highlighted.
Thanks again! Have a good morning and speak soon
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Doing this in bits:
Website firstly is wrong:
Representation Grounds
Select all that apply, you have the opportunity to add additional information on the next screen.
Any other ground
General Representation
I was not the owner of the vehicle
Procedural impropriety
The ceo was not prevented from serving the pcn
The contravention did not occur
The order was invalid
The pcn has been paid
The penalty charge exceeded the amount
The vehicle was taken without my consent
We are a hire firm
***
May/will re service of a charge certificate.
Signage and warning signage do not align.
Contravention?
****
Sorry as I am dealing with lots of stuff at this very moment.
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Okay, thank you! I will hold off sending in my representation for a little bit longer.
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I am working on it.
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I think I might need to try send some form of representation today as i'm aware the days are getting away and they'll also then need to respond. I don't want to end up paying a much higher fine. Any last minutes tips would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
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No problem! Thank you, I really appreciate it
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Thank you! I really appreciate the help
Sorry: tomorrow.
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Thank you! I really appreciate the help
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I will draft something later tonight. I will also visit their site.
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Front of PCN - https://postimg.cc/pmY1jJsn
Back of PCN - https://postimg.cc/mcmXX2fL
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We really need to see the PCN.
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Thank you for responding, I couldn't find anything on the woking website but on the Brighton and Hove website and other council websites they talk about the difference between a bus gate and bus lane which seems to match up with the info i've found online:
"What a bus gate is
A bus gate is a short section of road which only buses and authorised vehicles can go through as shown by appropriate signage.
How a bus gate is different to a bus lane
A bus lane is marked by a solid thick white line and the words ‘Bus Lane’ which are periodically marked on the road. Only buses and authorised vehicles can travel in the bus lane as shown by appropriate signage."
And this is the Gov Uk website info on bus and cycle signs and road markings:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/bus-and-cycle-signs-and-road-markings
Anything that refers to a Bus gate has a circular sign with it and whenever they talk about bus lane it appears to have a rectangular sign with it and from my understanding and what other council sites have said, would need to have bus lane written on the road and the solid thick white line (which isn't present).
When I phoned Surrey County Council who actually issues the PCN, they were also confused, put me on hold and then confirmed that it is a bus gate and encouraged me to challenge (which is very odd when it's SCC who sent the penalty in the first place). I do not think I would be able to challenge them on the signage itself but the fact that the information in my PCN is incorrect as it doesn't mention a bus gate anywhere and the place the incident took place is called High Street Woking (Bus Lane) and it isn't one.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
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PM received. Cannot access PCN. I haven't done out of London bus lanes for ages but the Traffic Management Order should establish whether this is a gate or lane. The blue rondel can be used for contra flow bus lanes but I need to research whether it can be used interchangeably for a lane. Sorry, I should know this.
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How about the below:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to me for allegedly driving in a bus lane. I believe the charge is incorrect, and I am requesting that the PCN be cancelled for the following reasons:
Signage and Road Markings Inconsistency
According to the Government's guidance on bus and cycle signs, road markings, and the Highway Code, the area in question does not have the appropriate signage or road markings to designate it as a bus lane. There are no visible signs indicating the presence of a bus lane, nor are there any road markings that would suggest it is a bus lane.
The signage in this area indicates to a "bus gate," which is not mentioned anywhere in the PCN I received. This discrepancy between the PCN's description and the actual road signage has caused confusion, and the information provided on the PCN does not accurately reflect the situation.
Confusion During Telephone Enquiries
I contacted Surrey County Council on the morning of March 10th, 2025, at 10:08 am for clarification. The staff member I spoke to was initially unsure whether the location in question was a bus lane or a bus gate. After putting me on hold and consulting with colleagues, the staff member confirmed that it is, in fact, a bus gate. However, I was advised to challenge the PCN because the information provided in the notice was incorrect.
I called Surrey County Council again at 10:44 am to seek further clarification on which representation grounds would be appropriate for my case. The staff member I spoke to was also unsure and had to consult with colleagues once more, as they were unable to confirm the correct grounds for challenge and said it could fall under three. I questioned how unclear this was and they also encouraged me to include this in a representation. This further reinforces the confusion and lack of clarity surrounding the PCN and the signage.
Inaccurate Information in the PCN
Based on my conversations with Surrey County Council and the guidance on road signage and markings, I believe the PCN incorrectly describes the place as a bus lane. The place in question is actually a bus gate, and the signage and road markings do not support the claim that it is a bus lane. The conflicting information I received from the council staff only adds to the confusion surrounding the matter.
Given the above points, I respectfully request that you reconsider and cancel the Penalty Charge Notice, as the information provided is inaccurate and misleading. The confusion caused by the signage and the conflicting advice from Surrey County Council staff further supports my claim that the penalty charge was issued in error.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.
Yours faithfully,
[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[PCN Reference Number]
Should I include ownership that the footage clearly shows I have made a mistake and once I had realised I was stuck in a one way system (I owned that on both phone calls because I don't challenge that) but that it is my first time ever driving in the area, I got rerouted on the sat nav due to roadworks in the area, its my first ever charge and the confusion by multiple staff members of Surrey County Council suggests that the information needs to be more clear to help myself and others avoid mistakes like this in the future. I am grateful to now know to avoid this mistake if i ever drive in the area in future.
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Thanks for the response.
Even if on the phone today, Surrey County Council said I should challenge it?
I have also spoken to them again just now and they were not sure which representation grounds I should tick for it and told me to tick three different ones (A the alleged contravention did not occur, F There has been a procedural impropriety by the enforcement authority and also other grounds). So there's a lot of confusion and no one seems to be clear at Surrey CC and the staff member I spoke to just now said I should include that in my representation also.
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The bus lane contravention is used to enforce bus gates so I don't think there's anything in that.
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Good morning,
I called Surrey County Council today and queried whether it is actually a bus lane as stated in my PCN. The lady on the phone had to go and check with colleagues and confirmed that the letter is wrong, it is a bus gate and not a bus lane so it would be a different contravention code and I should definitely challenge it.
Does anyone have any advice on how I can please draft this challenge? I am not the best at writing and have never had to do anything like this before.
The details are that on 15th February 2025, I was driving in Woking for the first time and got rerouted by my satnav due to a number of roadworks happening at the time. During the reroute, at 12.14 I unknowingly drove through a restricted area for unauthorised cars at that time. I received a PCN via the post on 7th March 2025 notifying me that I am receiving a penalty for contravention 34J Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) for driving in High Street Woking (Bus Lane). However as per UK Government Guidance for Bus and cycle signs and road markings and the Highway code, none of the signage or road markings reflect that it is a bus lane that I drove through or match what the place has been called (High street woking (bus lane)). I have since called Surrey County Council at 10.0am today (March 10th) and spoke to their PCN team and upon further investigation, they have confirmed that it is not an official bus lane that I drove through but a bus gate, so my penalty is for driving through a bus gate which is a restricted area from 7am-9pm for unauthorised vehicles. I owned that I have clearly made a mistake in the area from seeing the footage sent to me but I am confused by which mistake i'm being charged for, they encouraged me to challenge this PCN online or by post as I therefore have received the wrong information and contravention code. I believe all their calls are recorded for training purposes etc so there should be evidence of this conversation.
Any help and advice on what to write would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
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Thank you for the message. I must have somehow deleted the blackout on those details before i've saved it. I've removed the document now. I will try call and speak to the council on Monday but will pay the £35 if not and take it as a lesson learned. Thank you for your help
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I don't think there is anything on the contravention given and the case you posted looks to have been a discretionary cancel maybe because it was newish.
You've left your name and address on the documents - these are the only things you should redact.
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I've just found this old thread on a forum from 2020 saying someone who made the exact same mistake got theirs waived as it's not technically a 'bus lane' it's a bus gate. But the letter and website has given me the contravention 34J which means being in a bus 'lane' camera enforcement. Could this be what you mean by error?
Here is the website with discussion below. You'll see it was the exact same place:
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/420057-woking-pcn-for-using-a-bus-gate-or-entering-a-bus-lane-code-34j-won-pcn-waived/
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ok thank you! What would be examples of a fault with the PCN or website wording be?
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Must say the signs look very clear. There was a distraction of the other car but you sailed through. There is also an advance sign.
I think the only hope is a fault with the PCN or website wording.
(https://i.imgur.com/YxZYqB4.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/23OA44Y.png)
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hi,
Sorry it wouldn't show the video for some reason. Here is the link again - vimeo.com/1063547433/e85ba76a99?share=copy
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Hi,
I hope you can please help.
I have only been driving for a few months. Drove in an area I'm not used to and was relying on my sat nav which unfortunately told me to go through what I now know to be a bus lane. Only realised as was just driving through and caught bottom of the sign about authorised vehicles on my right as I drove through (there is sign on right and left). It is then a one way system so had to drive all the way through to the end of lane. As I was half way down the lane, I noticed another car had also done the same thing. So wasn't just me who it wasn't clear to. The sign was a mix of pictures and text which was confusing to me. There are two signs just on the line as you enter but no bus lane text written on ground. I could not see any other signs leading up to the two that straddle the line of entering the bus lane.
The penalty charge letter shows the top of my vehicle but no license plate. However the website itself shows 3 further images and a video of my car clearly driving into it and restrictions are from 7am to 9pm. I drove through at 12.14.
It is £35 if I pay early but any help as to whether this can be appealed would be greatly appreciated. I've had no previous offences or charges and first time driving in the area. I have included the other images below:
https://postimg.cc/fJZk7GYb
https://postimg.cc/YvC9ZQnK
https://postimg.cc/7fVhKKNn
https://vimeo.com/1063547433/e85ba76a99?share=copy
Google maps location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qHyP785nH79KXYoz8
I have taken off my license plate and PCN number as didn't feel comfortable sharing and have provided all the evidence available online. On the map tab where it's meant to show a map on their website it says:
The map displayed is an approximate location and for reference purposes only. It is not 100% accurate. For an accurate location refer to the street and restricted area recorded on your PCN.
No mapping data available.
I am also confused as is this not a bus gate? It does not have any markings on the ground to suggest its a bus lane. Therefore would it not be a different contravention code like 33J as I entered an authorised vehicle zone that is just for buses, bikes and authorised vehicles? Would this be enough to appeal as it says bus lane on all the penalty charge paperwork which technically doesn't appear to be true?