Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Pompom on March 07, 2025, 12:38:19 pm
-
No one will read that unless you break it up into paragraphs.
-
Thanks,
This is the response I submitted earlier this evening. It's a bit long but if nothing else I will make it cost them moreoney.to deal with than what they will get out of me!
I am writing to formally appeal the parking ticket issued to my vehicle on 15/12/2025 in Service Area 1, to which my informal appeal was rejected. The ticket states that I was parked in a restricted area during prescribed hours. However, I believe this ticket was issued in error due to the following reasons: 1. Faded Markings / Poor Lighting: The bay markings in Service Area 1 were faded and difficult to discern, leading to confusion about where to park. Evidence photographs provided by Surrey County Council show severely faded lines and litter/faded white marks from now illegible lettering, contributing to the misunderstanding, especially since the vehicle was parked at night. A Google Street View image from 2015 shows how the markings used to be and provides evidence of the continued lack of maintenance. 2. Misleading / Confused Signage: The signage indicating parking restrictions was not clear enough, leading to the incorrect assumption that I was parked within a marked bay. Previous visits to Camberley involved parking in two rows of vehicles in the service area, and at the time of parking, I pulled into a 'space' between a row of other vehicles, which obscured my view of the double yellow lines on the right-hand side, further contributing to the confusion. At no point was I parked adjacent to any double yellow lines, and it is unclear if this is a carriageway or a car park due to the lack of markings and signage. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made 3. Previous Usage: I have parked in this area on an almost annual basis without issues, indicating that the markings and signage have been consistently unclear, and enforcement has not been taken previously. As someone who has worked in local government for 20 years, and 10 of those within the parish & town council sector frequently dealing with highways matters for residents, you can imagine how concerned I was to receive a PCN to which I did not understand why. This was further compounded when my informal appeal was rejected on the basis that I hadn't understood why I had supposedly committed the contravention. I would say I have a higher-than-average understanding of local council administration and legislation, yet still unknowingly parked incorrectly. The following text conveys the issues that can occur when a PCN is unclear: “A street is often subject to a number of differing parking restrictions. For example, one particular parking bay in a street may be restricted to permit holders only between the prescribed hours of 9am to 6pm while another parking bay may be restricted to Pay & Display between the prescribed hours of 8am to 6pm. However, a person who lawfully parks their vehicle in either bay during the prescribed hours is doing just as my vehicle was also doing, that being, “parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours”. Quite simply, the ground stated on the PCN is not fit for purpose since it does not distinguish between a vehicle that is lawfully parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours and one that is not. The use of this equivocal ground is potentially prejudicial as a person may prepare an appeal focusing on a parking restriction that is not actually relevant to the reason why the PCN was served. For instance, many PCNs are served upon vehicles that are parked partly in a parking space with either their front or rear end slightly overhanging an adjacent single or double yellow line. Often where this happens a PCN is served upon the vehicle for being “parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours”. However, due to the diverse meaning in plain English of this ground, the recipient of the PCN may wrongly but reasonably assume that they contravened the parking place restriction rather than be aware that they fractionally infringed upon the “No Waiting” yellow line restriction. In the interest of justice, a person needs to easily comprehend why their vehicle was not considered lawfully parked so that they can either avoid doing so again or gather the relevant evidence for any subsequent appeal. It must also be remembered that the ground on the PCN will be repeated on the NtO and the owner may not have been the driver. Therefore, unless an NtO is accompanied each and every time by adequate photos of the signage, the owner when applying common language will not be able to deduce with certainty what parking restriction the expression “restricted street” concerns and was allegedly contravened. The general principles of law dictate that a person should not have to decipher the ground stated on a PCN or guess what restriction was allegedly contravened; it should be unequivocal. In a day and age when the UK is host to a wealth of visitors and residents whose first language is not English and when central and local Government both readily advocate the use of plain English on all public forms and documents it is nonsensical to use language on a PCN that is ambiguous or may require a person to refer to the glossary of a faraway traffic order to gain a degree of understanding of what they allegedly did wrong. The council may be using the standard contravention codes but it should be remembered that these contravention codes have no statutory authority and cannot be relied upon as a defence as made clear in the key adjudication case between Metrick v Camden (Case no 207034396A). I find the ground of “parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours” to be unsupported as a parking contravention prescribed by the traffic order. The order may prohibit waiting in certain lengths of road at certain times but the order does not define and correlate waiting restrictions with being "restricted street" nor does it define and correlate what is considered "prescribed hours". It is critical to remember that the purpose of a PCN is to encourage people to park lawfully, so it stands to reason that a person needs to know precisely what they did wrong in order to avoid doing so again. The ground given on the PCN is ineffective in conveying what I allegedly did wrong and as such it does not satisfy paragraph 1(e) contained within the Schedule to “The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 and the penalty charge should be cancelled forthwith rather than drag this matter to adjudication.” Here is some further legislation and guidance that I believe is relevant to this appeal and where I feel Surrey County Council have fallen short in their duties as the local highway authority: From page 119: Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 05 '12.7 Maintenance 12.7.1. Road markings, including reflecting road studs, must be well maintained if they are to fulfil their purpose. Regulatory markings must be maintained properly if they are to be enforced effectively. Guidance can be found in TD 26 in Volume 8 of DMRB and ‘Well managed Highway Infrastructure: A Code of Practice’ (published by UK Roads Liaison Group). 12.7.2. All markings, including reflecting road studs, should be inspected at regular intervals both by day and, where appropriate, for reflectance by night. Retroreflectivity of road markings can be measured by static equipment or by dynamic equipment mounted on a vehicle travelling at normal traffic speeds. 12.7.3. It is not possible to recommend specific renewal intervals for markings as these will depend upon the type of line, the material comprising the marking and traffic flow. Traffic authorities should keep their carriageway markings under review (particularly on heavily trafficked roads) to ensure that their effectiveness is maintained at all times.' THE SURREY COUNTY COUNCIL CAMBERLEY CONTROLLED PARKING ZONE IN THE BOROUGH OF SURREY HEATH (CONSOLIDATION AND REVOCATION OF WAITING LOADING AND UNLOADING RESTRICTIONS AND ON STREET PARKING PLACES) ORDER 2017 Placing of traffic signs etc 35 THE Council shall: (a) place and maintain a traffic sign or traffic signs indicating the limits of a parking space and/or each parking place and (b) place and maintain in or in the vicinity of each parking place referred to in (ii) Article 11 of this Order a traffic sign or traffic signs indicating that such parking place may be used during the permitted hours for the leaving only of the vehicles specified in Article 12 (c) carry out such other work as is reasonably required for the purposes of the satisfactory operation of a parking place Given these points, I respectfully request that the penalty charge notice be reviewed and dismissed. I trust that Surrey County Council will consider this appeal favourably. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
-
Nothing to do with 'nearness'.
Were you parked on a road, yes or no?
If no, end of story.
If yes, then with what authority were the bays marked as they do not conform to regulatory requirements?
And if so, where's the centre-line and what delimits the extent of the DYL?
-
Thanks, I'm definitely making representations and not paying at this stage I'll keep appealing! This is great thanks, I'm trying to see where I can call them out on the complete lack of maintenance, its been 2-3 more years since google street view, you can see from their evidence photos that I am nowhere near the double yellow line there was at least one or two cars either side of the 'space' I parked in on the Saturday night and the writing is illegible now but some paint markings remain giving further credence to the public perception that these were marked bays with poorly maintained lines
-
You weren't in contravention IMO, so don't beat yourself up about it.
I could go on about the requirements for traffic signs for parking bays and their permitted configuration, but if you've decided to pay then I won't, you can read for yourself:
Schedules 4 and 7; https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
Section 13.6 and onwards: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
-
Thank you both, I'm glad you can see my confusion, I mean adding to the fact that I also parked up whilst it was pitch black and in a row of other vehicles in what I thought was just a poorly marked bay, you can see why I haven't just coughed up the money I genuinely had no idea I was in contravention of anything and even after looking at it a lot I still can't see how I could reasonably have been expected to realise this at the time. I won't be parking there again though!
-
??
DYL apply from the centre-line of the carriageway to the edge of the highway, back of the footway or building line or however you want to describe it.
The authority's contention is that:
Where you were is a road;
That you were parked within the scope of the DYL.
IMO, neither is correct. There's no permitted configuration of parking bays as laid out here on a road, it must be a car park. As such, waiting restrictions are irrelevant.
Even if it is a road, where's the centre-line?
The authority's position is nonsensical IMO because as DYL apply 24/7 and parking within the bays is permitted Mon-Sat then the 'centre-line' must be the contiguous line around the bays!!
This is not 'the floor's lava' and waiting restrictions do not apply to every square foot not otherwise encased in a so-called parking bay.
-
There's a double yellow running all the way down one side so technically the whole area can be seen as restricted if it's an on-street road. There is a shorter line with bays behind it that looks suspect to me that they are presumably relying on as you were adjacent to that?
If they are allowing some permit bays in the middle of the area they should be signed and marked - the whole area is a bit of a mess.
(https://i.ibb.co/QFd56Vgc/Screenshot-2025-03-18-at-13-05-33.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/RGFx2fDz/Screenshot-2025-03-18-at-13-06-04.png)
-
Sorry to bombard, I thought this may also be helpful from the map - the restrictions for the 'double yellow area, restrictions for the permit parking bay area & a map with where I was parked marked in yellow, at the time of parking there were vehicles parked either side of the 'space' I parked in. The road markings have not been well maintained as you can see by the pictures in the post above. I need to send representations today so I am in the process of putting pen to paper (well keyboard to online forms) any last minute assistance greatly appreciated.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
This is a link to the map of the parking restrictions, I have also attached a zoomed in section showing service area No 1
https://surreycc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=21cce2892c704bdcb62ec02689d75585
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Here is the notice to owner. Thank you.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Please show the Notice to Owner.
-
Thank you, I will do, I had a look at the CPZ wording and it also states that they will maintain the road markings and clearly they haven't done this which I am hoping will also raise the query of the validity of the PCN
-
I suggest you submit your original challenge, but updated to state that at no time were you parked adjacent to double-yellow lines, in fact if this is a car park, how can yellow lines, that apply to a carriageway on a public road, be valid at all.
If you lose at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, they council will have had to do at least some work for their ill-gotten gains, and wont get the full amount, because they have to prepare an evidence pack and also pay the adjudication fee.
Don't join The Mugged Club by just meekly coughing-up !
-
Sorry when I said cut my losses I meant, as in just pay up to avoid the stress of an appeal. Especially if the end result is likely the same. I definitely would like to make representations if possible, I was just wondering if anyone has had a similar ticket and has managed to successfully appeal? Is there anything in the CPZ or other relevant caselaw that would be useful to quote in my representation, I'm not sure where to start? I obviously need to submit my representations by Wednesday 19th at the latest. Though preferably I'd like to send something off on Monday or Tuesday. Any advice on where to begin would be much appreciated.
-
If you've already got the Notice to Owner, then you cannot cut your losses because the discount period has long expired. So it's now a total no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way to London Tribunals. However, they may re-offer the discount when rejecting your formal reps against the NtO. If they don't then you take them to London Tribunals with our help.
If you received the NtO on the 19th, then you need to get your skates on and submit reps against it pronto. You can usually do this on their website. Once they refuse you can register an appeal at London Tribunals. There are no additional costs charged at LT, only the PCN penalty if you lose.
-
Unfortunately I already have the notice to owner addressed to me. Date of posting 17.02.25, PCN service 19.02.25. Therefore I need to make representations in the next couple of days or else pay the fine. I was hoping to make representations but I am sure someone on the forum will have a much greater understanding than I do of how to successfully dispute the PCN or at least give me a greater chance. If there isn't any chance of getting out of it then I may as well cut my losses now and spend my energies elsewhere as I am already off work unwell with stress so I am trying to choose my battles wisely, I am not a fan of injustice and I am generally very careful about parking and was caught completely off guard by this.
-
I have recently helped a friend whose Notice to Owner was written by Dr Who. So I would wait for yours.
-
Apologies for only just seeing this, here is a link which I hope works for you. Thank you, Kate.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wuQPb1jrcVGdEcAbA?g_st=ac
-
Can you just give us a GSV link, so we can look around for ourselves, please.
-
I couldn't see how to edit the attachments so below is a few more images from google street view of the Service Area 1 signage & the 'marked bays' showing how much these have deteriorated from 2014/15 to Oct 2022. You can see from the Surrey CC reply how much further the 'marked bays' have deteriorated since and how easy it could be to park within a row of vehicles assuming the markings have just faded over time (which is what I did) I'm not saying I am in the right for making an incorrect assumption but I do feel that the PCN is unjust when their are unclear markings and I parked up at 9pm on a Saturday evening with poor lighting in a row of other cars. Unfortunately I didn't photograph my car on the evening and as I live 3 hours away I haven't been able to get photos of other Saturday evenings in Camberley to show what I believe to be is a regular occurrence there parking wise.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
This looks like a stretch for on-street yellow line coverage adjacent to a parking area and I can see why it confused.
(https://i.imgur.com/hJgivwK.png)
-
In December, I stayed at the Premier Inn in Camberley as I have done for many years whilst visiting my brother for Christmas. There is a service area opposite the hotel which has permit holder only parking from Mon-Sat 8am-6pm. We usually stay on a Saturday Evening and so if there is a parking space here we utilise it, if not we go and park in the Atrium and walk through the town with our cases.
We parked from around 9pm on the Saturday Evening, when we arrived there were two rows of cars (as there has been for many years) and pulled in between two vehicles that were already parked. There was another space diagonally opposite us & as my parents were also staying at the same hotel we let them know and they parked in that space a few minutes later. All good, or so I thought!
The next day we headed to the shops (Sunday morning) and then when we went to leave a lady pulled in next to me & asked if she was OK to park there, to which I replied, yes, it's fine on a Sunday. Then as we drove off imagine my surprise when seeing a yellow plastic wallet shoved under the windscreen wiper almost under the bonnet with a PCN notice inside. When I saw the contravention listed 01 - Parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours I was really confused, I looked at the signs again, definitely Permit Holders only Mon-Sat 8am-6pm, therefore I sent an email to Surrey CC to advise that their Enforcement Officer must have made a mistake as he issued the ticket on Sunday morning at 9:26am and this was clearly outside of prescribed hours.
This is the response I sent:
Service Area 1 is clearly signposted as being designated for permit holders only from Mon-Sat 8am-6pm. We parked there from approx 9pm on Saturday 14th Dec to 1pm on Sunday 15th Dec. We have done this in many prior years (when an appropriate space has been available and if not parked within the Atrium) due to its proximity to the premier inn and having cases to carry. This area is very often full outside of the permit holder only hours. There are at least two large signs stating that the parking is restricted to permit holders only during Mon-Sat 6pm-8am so we have only ever used this area outside of these times, there was no signage indicating that this is no longer the case and due to this I dispute the Penalty Charge Notice that we have received for parking in this area without a permit when it is very clearly signposted that permits are only needed Mon-Sat 8am-6pm and the PCN indicates that we were parked in Service Area 1 on Sunday 15th December 9:19-9:26 and that we had contravened code 01 - parking in a restricted area during prescribed hours. It is quite clear from the photo of the signage that we were not parked during the 'prescribed hours' as indicated on your signage.
I will now give you their response:
PCN No: RR02526067
Amount Due: £35.00
Date of Contravention: 15/12/2024 at 09:26
Location: Service Area 1
Vehicle Registration No: Bxxxxxxx
Contravention: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Dear Mrs xxxxxx
Thank you for your correspondence received on 15/12/2024, in which you challenged the
above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
We have carefully considered the evidence you have supplied and decided not to cancel
your PCN.
You were parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours, the PCN was served
correctly. In the area where you were parked at the time the notice was served the double
yellow lines are clearly visible meaning `no waiting at any time`. The restriction of double
yellow lines is applicable 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I note from your correspondence that you state Service Area 1 is clearly signposted as being
designated for permit holders only from Mon-Sat 8am-6pm. We parked there from 9pm on
Saturday 14/12/2024 to 1pm on Sunday 15/12/2024.
Please be advised, the area in which you parked was not a designated permit bay, however,
your vehicle was parked in an area covered by double yellow lines. The double yellow lines
cover all aspects of this area when not parked within a marked bay which includes foot paths
and verges and extends to the boundary line therefore your vehicle was in contravention of
the restriction. Furthermore, the permit holder restriction you are referring too, is only
applicable when parked wholly within the marked bays. Therefore, as your vehicle was
parked outside of the bays and in contravention of a waiting restriction, a notice was
correctly issued.
I am satisfied that the sign at this location is clear and visible to motorists. Upon parking in a
specific location, it is the driver’s responsibility to consult all signs which are in place and to
make sure that they fully understand any restrictions stated. It is ultimately the responsibility
of the driver to make sure that their vehicle is parked correctly prior to it being left
unattended.
I have reviewed the evidence available to me and unfortunately, on this occasion, I have
found no valid grounds to cancel the PCN.
Please see the images below, which were taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) at
the time of serving the PCN.
What happens next?
Because we have rejected your representations, we require you to choose one of the
two options outlined immediately below:- Pay within 14 days of the date of this letter at the 50% discounted amount of £35.00 and
the case will be closed (see the How to Pay section at the end of this letter). OR- Pay within 28 days of the date of this letter at the full amount of £70.00 and the case will be
closed.
If you do not agree with our decision, you should:- Wait to receive the Notice to Owner (NtO). This is a statutory notice which will be served
upon the owner / registered keeper of the vehicle following the expiry of 28 days from the
date of this response.- Once the Notice to Owner has been issued, the owner/registered keeper will have a
statutory right to make a formal representation against the PCN. The Council has a statutory
duty to consider all formal representations received and also to respond within the statutory
timescales.- If you are the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle and are intending to make a formal
representation, you should not pay the PCN at this stage.
If the registered keeper does make a formal representation then:- The Council will investigate the formal representation and respond to him or her within 56
days from the date of receipt.- If the representation is rejected thereafter, the Council will provide details in their response
of the next stage in the appeal process, which is an appeal to the Independent Parking
Adjudicator. We would also confirm that appeals to the Parking Adjudicator must be made in
writing within 28 days from the date of service of the formal notice of rejection of
representations.- If the formal representation is rejected, the full amount of the penalty charge would be
payable.
Howto Pay?- Online at
https://surreyocm.itsvc.co.uk selecting the Pay option.
- By telephone Credit / debit card payments only. Automated payment line 03301
755930 (24 hours / 7 days a week). Please have card, vehicle registration and PCN number
ready.- Cheque or postal order made payable to 'Surrey County Council'. This should be sent to
Surrey County Council Parking, PO Box 335, Sheffield, S98 1ES. Please include the PCN
number with your payment. Allow 2 working days for 1st class post and 5 for 2nd class.
Yours sincerely,
Parking Services Manager
Now I agree from the photos that our car was not within a marked bay, however at the time we parked it was very difficult for us to have realised this, the actual bays have faded lines and where we parked there was some litter on the floor / white marks that we wrongly assumed were faded markings and as we parked in a row of other vehicles on the Saturday evening had no reason to believe we had parked incorrectly. Even the following day I had not realised because every time we have been to Camberley in the past decade there have been two rows of vehicles parked in the service area. In a bizarre twist, the space which was available for my parents was a marked bay, we would obviously had parked there if the signage and road markings were clear.
They have included four photos of our vehicle on the Sunday morning and now the other vehicles have gone and it is daylight, it does look more obviously out of place/ not in a marked bay but by the time we got back to our car following shopping it was in a row with cars parked either side (well one space where a lady pulled in & asked me if it was OK to park there!!)
You can see from the photos that the marked bays lining is faded. I don't know if I have grounds to appeal or not, all I know is that it feels very unfair and that I did not even understand why we had a ticket at all until they replied to our 'informal appeal' I tried to contact them again after this to explain the above but you can't even speak to a human and because I had done my 'appeal' even though I didn't know what I was appealing I haven't been able to explain the above issues. Do I have any chance of winning this? I've now missed the opportunity to pay £35 and it will be £70, it just feels like I didn't even get a chance to properly appeal and have a second stab at paying the £35 because all I got was a computer says no response. I feel like the 01: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours was very misleading. If it had said not parked in a marked bay in an area outline by Double Yellow Lines I would have had more opportunity to have actually understood what I did wrong. I will work out how to use imgur and upload photos asap. Thanks for reading, I'm sorry it's a bit long.
[attachment deleted by admin]