Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: NBSCMN on September 14, 2023, 11:31:30 pm

Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: cp8759 on January 07, 2024, 12:00:57 am
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: cp8759 on November 15, 2023, 04:46:03 pm
They've opened the link:

(https://i.imgur.com/maq7DXn.png)

However as Hippocrates points out, the NoR is hopelessly flawed, as the timeframes are wrong. This is an almost sure win at the tribunal and I'm happy to represent you if you wish to carry on.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Hippocrates on November 15, 2023, 04:12:30 pm
Rejection of representations against penalty charge notice

3Where any representations are made under paragraph 1 above but the enforcing authority do not accept that a ground has been established, the notice served under sub-paragraph (7) of the said paragraph 1 (in this Schedule referred to as “the notice of rejection”) must—
(a)state that a charge certificate may be served under paragraph 5 below unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection—

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted

Plus failure to consider.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: NBSCMN on November 15, 2023, 04:04:15 pm
Hi

just received my rejection.

https://imgur.com/a/flOieZF

any thoughts
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: cp8759 on September 18, 2023, 10:04:02 pm
You'll have to submit this under "any other reason":

Dear London Borough of Merton,

It is unclear which statutory grounds of appeal the council believes apply to this penalty charge. While there are five grounds listed on the PCN, when trying to make a representation I am presented with no less than 22 grounds that don't seem to match or overlap with the grounds on the paper PCN at all:

 A friend / family member recently passed away 
 I am a Blue Badge holder 
 I did not realise I was in contravention 
 I have already paid the PCN 
 I performed the contravention due to my medical condition
 I performed the contravention to avoid congestion 
 I was avoiding an accident 
 I was following a diversion 
 I was following my sat-nav / I was lost / I'm not from the area 
 I was making way for an emergency vehicle 
 I was not at the location on the day 
 I was not the driver 
 I was not the owner of the vehicle 
 I was unaware of the rules 
 I was unaware that a PCN had been issued as I've been away 
 My vehicle had broken down 
 My vehicle is a taxi / private hire vehicle 
 My vehicle was cloned 
 My vehicle was stolen 
 The owner of the vehicle has passed away 
 The vehicle was on hire to someone else 

I have provided a screenshot of this at (link)

It would appear that either the grounds on the PCN are wrong, or the ones on the website are wrong, or maybe they are both wrong. In either event this does not appear to be a proper or lawful approach and I suggest that the PCN should sort out its processes before issuing any more PCNs.

Yours faithfully,

The link will redirect to https://imgur.com/a/lfZqhu3 but do not put this link into the representation, I will email you a link which will provide an audit trail of the number of clicks it receives (do not click on that link yourself). If the click count remains at zero, we'll be able to show that they've not considered all the evidence before responding to the representation. If they say that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: NBSCMN on September 18, 2023, 10:33:28 am
ou67 nmv

MT87172065
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Hippocrates on September 17, 2023, 10:50:29 pm
Good luck re de minimis. :-[
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: cp8759 on September 17, 2023, 07:04:03 pm
Can you please provide the PCN number & number plate? There is a possible argument I would like to investigate.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Pastmybest on September 15, 2023, 05:34:40 pm
Talking about driving standards from someone who thinks driving on the opposite side of the road is illegal is a bit rich

Part of the HGV test requires you to reverse and put your back end into a metre long box I would venture that even in a car over 50% would fail this and it is much easier to judge where the front of your car is than the back
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: H C Andersen on September 15, 2023, 04:32:10 pm

As each case turns on its own facts and we don't know the distances and spaces referred to in the 'Ali' case it would be a gamble.

But as I understand the thrust of this argument, the point being made is one of driver competence, or rather lack of i.e. they didn't stop in the box because of a stationary vehicle, they stopped in the box because they're a poor driver who doesn't know the length of their own vehicle who had stopped because they thought they were clear. Had they known they were in the box, they'd have moved forward and had the space to do so.

OP, could you bolster this e.g. their normal car is a Smart car and they were driving this just for a day etc! 

As regards whether the car in this case could have moved forward, probably. But they're cars, not sardines. Also, how could the driver be such a good one at the front - squeezing forward - yet at the same time bad at judging where they were at the back? 
If you're taking this line, think it through to its conclusion.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Pastmybest on September 15, 2023, 03:45:48 pm
This case needs be considered when thinking of appeal so similar to yours it could be a twin

2170439250

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Barking Road at 1.49pm on 9 April 2017.

Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.

Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.

I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case and I am allowing the appeal. The footage shows that, when Mr Ali's vehicle entered the box. the traffic beyond the box was stationary but that there was a space that appeared sufficient for another vehicle between the box exit line and the first stationary vehicle. Mr Ali's vehicle entered into that space and stopped so that just the rear wheels were over the box line. The footage does not enable me to see whether or not Mr Ali's vehicle had any further space in front but I suspect that this may well have been a case where the driver did have sufficient space and that Mr Ali did not even know that the rear wheels were across the box line. I am not satisfied that this was a case where the vehicle was stopped in the box because of the stationary vehicle in front and I find for this reason that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: NBSCMN on September 15, 2023, 12:08:44 pm
no so these are all the photos provided. and the video which i've linked already

https://imgur.com/a/bSEKC0g
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: MrChips on September 15, 2023, 10:59:06 am
That's the line I would go with - that you stopped where you did as you believed you had cleared the junction.  Had you known you were a foot or two inside you'd have crept forward into the remaining space behind the car in front.  In case you aren't aware, OP, it's not the act of stopping in the junction that's punishable, it's the act of entering the junction when stationary vehicles subsequently cause you stop inside.  Hence if you end up stopping because you thought you'd already passed through and it was physically possible to have exited if you'd wanted to, then that is a valid defence.  The issue here will be that there seems to have been very little clearance between you and the car in front - the angle of the video footage makes it difficult to judge quite how much room there was though so equally hard to establish that there wasn't quite enough room.

Separately, the photo that was included is very misleading - it shows no sign of a car in front blocking you in (as it is from the period after it moves off, after you've already been sitting in the box for a while).  Was that one they provided to you, or a still you clipped from the video?
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: DancingDad on September 15, 2023, 09:42:06 am
It's worth a punt on challenging against their policy on discretion.
Many London councils have it written into their policy that they will not enforce for minor infractions such as this...whether Merton have this, dunno?
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Incandescent on September 15, 2023, 09:06:20 am
The other argument I remembered (this morning !), is that the driver thought they had fully cleared the junction. I've seen this succeed a few years ago for entry, when a driver thought he had stopped clear and not entered, but the car was about 2' into the junction.
Worth putting forward, I think. What is the traffic management benefit from walloping people for minor errors ?
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Pastmybest on September 15, 2023, 08:22:42 am
I would say that this was merely a misjudgement and you could have crept forward enough to clear the junction so did not have to stop due to stationary vehicles so no contravention
Title: Re: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: Incandescent on September 15, 2023, 12:14:35 am
The only thing I can see having looked at the video, is that it is a trivial contravention, and could therefore be considered "de minimis" This argument will be rejected by the council as they only want your money.  However would an adjudicator at London Tribunals agree it is de minimis ? With your back wheels in the box, possibly not, so it's a gamble, and you'd be risking an extra £65 if you took them there.
Title: 31J - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Post by: NBSCMN on September 14, 2023, 11:31:30 pm
Hi

The back wheels were still in the box junction. Is this contestable? I wasnt driving but it seems like there wasnt enough space to move forward

thanks

https://imgur.com/a/9aWD3FY

here is the video

https://imgur.com/a/3ry4t57