Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: marie on March 04, 2025, 11:59:27 am
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Just going through the thread. 8) Sorted.
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@Hippocrates , @cp8759 ,
Thank you very much
I will call them
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Call the tribunal and change the Comms preference to email, you don't want to be relying on the post.
Do not reply by post, as Hippocrates says you can email your reply to queries@londontribunals.org.uk
But you must still call to change the Comms preference on the case, until you do that they will reply by post.
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So, send an e mail with the case number in the header and attach your representations as directed. I will PM you my details as you will need representation. Won another three against them recently. Any further assistance, just message me.
The last one:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/lambeth-code-52-failure-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehicle/msg79064/#msg79064
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Good morning
Swept through by Covid (yes it is still around)
@Hippocrates
I have received a letter from Tribunal must had arrived yesterday afternoon ...
Post at my place always delays.
(https://i.imgur.com/OFERhsO.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/m4pXBW1.jpeg)
nothing from Lambeth, no change on the website
(https://i.imgur.com/XJ24U1V.png)
I have to send everything to arrive at the Tribunal by 17th (with in 1 week) ... by post ???
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but also states I cannot challenge it again ...
I'm pretty sure that if you click the "Representation" button we can see in your screenshot, you will be able to make a representation.
Post a draft representation on here for comment and review.
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Stop confusing yourself follow CP;s advice and once the order for recovery and charge certificate are revoked the dates will allow that the PCN cancelled
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I am in Kos at the moment - yet to take time off to sit under The Plane Tree. ;D Council should be in touch with you shortly after which I am most happy to represent.
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Update :
The PCN online has changed the amount back to £130 ...
(https://i.imgur.com/jI7C8CN.png)
but also states I cannot challenge it again ...
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Just keep them all as evidence against them.
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Is it just going into a loop?
(https://i.imgur.com/wEJfb7X.png)
Seems the council is just trying to stay unreasonable and make people to get fed up and pay
Unfair rejection hmm
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I am not that good with posting images here. But, I mentioned the current status in good faith - which does not help Lambeth.
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Unless others have said this, I would add that you should take screenshots of the page as it is and if it changes.
This may well be your get-out-of-jail card, so don't knock it, be grateful that they're idiots.
That's a fair point, and I would add this: there's not much point in taking a screenshot of just a small snippet: take a screenshot of the whole screen, with the council website maximised, and a small window showing the time.is website, like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/4mF3kgh.png)
That way there can be no issue about what the council website was showing on a particular date.
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Unless others have said this, I would add that you should take screenshots of the page as it is and if it changes.
This may well be your get-out-of-jail card, so don't knock it, be grateful that they're idiots.
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The call centre was unable to help and then closed, the chat bot system was not helping as it was going in the circle, there was no where to ask for guidance,
The council doesn't want to give you any guidance, they just want you to cough up the money without making so much of a fuss. You should not trust anything they say.
At the moment you have a revoking order so the penalty by law is not £205, at most it could be £130. As I said I think checking the website every day is a bit OTT and once a week is enough, as it might take two or three weeks for the council to process the paperwork.
For now aside from checking the website weekly, you don't need to do anything other than relax a bit. This is not a murder trial and there is a fair chance the PCN will ultimately be cancelled.
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I simply cited the current status on the website and I refer to the OP's last post above.
I don't think it was very clear, I've hopefully made what you actually meant a bit more obvious .
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Thank you for all the replies
all are helping so many in need of help and can be very confusing
My brain has not yet recovered fully but little better than how it was
I have been checking the website and today, it says ...
(https://i.imgur.com/dTSTU1o.png)
I have not yet received the letter from them.
I cannot believe I had lost the discount now I might have to pay extra for stupidly try to ask to be let off..
Am I stupid or the information was misleading to let me think I was allowed to informally challenge it in the first instance without losing the discount???
The call centre was unable to help and then closed, the chat bot system was not helping as it was going in the circle, there was no where to ask for guidance,
There are too many signs on the road added and added, they are un noticeable, unclear, misleading, confusing and rules change according to the borough, it is made to trick people to make mistakes so they can force the fine to make money?
some are time restricted if you don't have access to a watch, no way of knowing.
It is no difference to phishing online.
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OP, for right or wrong you and the council are where you are i.e. the OfR was revoked and the CC cancelled by order of the court on the 25 April.
IMO, the penalty is therefore that prescribed i.e. £130 unless, ultra vires, the authority have issued a further CC.
The ball is in the council's court:
(11)Where a declaration has been served under sub-paragraph (2)(b) or (c) above, the enforcing authority shall refer the case to the traffic adjudicator who may give such direction as he considers appropriate.
(2)The statutory declaration must state that the person making it—
(a)
(b)made representations to the enforcing authority under paragraph 1 above but did not receive a notice of rejection from that authority;
(c)
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Marie.
Please ignore the last two posts, i.e. from Hippocrates and Incandescent.
They obviously haven't followed your case and realised the current position.
I simply cited the current status on the website and I refer to the OP's last post above.
Me too. Sorry if I got it wrong. Hopw the OP wins her case, BTW.
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Marie.
Please ignore the last two posts, i.e. from Hippocrates and Incandescent.
They obviously haven't followed your case and realised the current position.
I simply cited the current status on the website and I refer to the OP's last post above.
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Marie.
Please ignore the last two posts, i.e. from Hippocrates and Incandescent.
They obviously haven't followed your case and realised the current position.
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So it is Statutory Declaration time, assuming the period for submitting has not expired.
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The council website says:
The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice Will be passed to an Enforcement Agent for collection.
Enforcement Agents charge fees on top of this debt which must be paid very soon.
Please pay £205.00 now.
You have already challenged this PCN and we replied on Wed, 26 Feb 2025. You cannot challenge twice
Current status.
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The ball is in the council's court, you just have to be patient and vigilant as advised.
There isn't a £65 option. As per cp, it's all (£130) or nothing.
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@marie I would suggest you keep an eye on the council website at least once a week for any changes. The council will either write to you, or refer the case directly to the tribunal.
Strictly speaking it's much better for you if they don't do anything, because if they take too long to refer the case to the tribunal, the tribunal will simply reject the referral as having been made too late and the PCN will be cancelled without you having to do anything else.
I wouldn't bother worrying about the £65 discounted amount, the objective here should be to get the PCN cancelled in its entirety.
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This is a London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 PCN. As such they are under no obligation to re-offer the discount even for a prompt challenge. Although they may well do so.
The letter you previously received is defective and not a proper Notice of Rejection as there are no instructions and credentials to submit an appeal to the Adjudicator.
The Adjudicator is likely to take a dim view of the failure to issue a proper Notice of Rejection in a reasonable time frame. So I would hope you will win on that basis, never mind any other issues.
Report back when something happens.
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Thanks @Enceladus for your swift reply.
Seems everything is taking longer than mentioned at each of the stages
I assume I need to wait for another post / any update on the website.
Will the fee be stated at £130?
I do not wish to pay £130 as it would have been at £65...
I contacted them the next day I received the PCN!
and after all this confusing stuff whilst having to deal with post concussion brain issue...
I went into the street many times and never noticed the sigh until I received the PCN as the sign is not facing to the direction I was approaching from.
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The court order was issued 25th April and the Council would have had it electronically so really they should have reset the amount payable to £130 by now. Probably sloppy admin.
Please confirm the box ticked on the SD form was non receipt of a Notice of Rejection? I assume so. Should they wish to continue enforcement then they will have to refer the matter to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed.
You should hear something from the London Tribunals as it seems that there never has been a proper Notice of Rejection for the Council to re-issue / re-serve. Likely they will hear the matter as an appeal and you will be invited to submit your evidence.
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Hi, @cp8759
It was impossible to get any appointment at the county court the form signing as no one answers the appointment line to make appointment. without an appointment, cannot go into the court desk.
I have found a Barrister of a court through friends contact and emailed the PE3 form to The Traffic Enforcement Centre.
I have received a letter from the Traffic Enforcement Centre
Ordering to cancel
* Notice for Recovery
* Charge Certificate
(https://i.imgur.com/hmcsDBt.jpeg)
It mentions the original Penalty Charge Notice is NOT Cancelled.
The council's website has not been updated and it is still at £205
Please guide me to the next step.
Marie
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Deleted
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Thank you so much for all your help.
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@marie Just relax please. We will deal with this for you all in due course. 8)
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@marie at this stage all of that is irrelevant, and none of this should be mentioned on form PE3, which should be filled in based on the instructions in the guide I posted above. Once the TEC angle has been dealt with, we can look at the merits of the PCN, but at the moment the merits of the PCN are irrelevant.
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@cp8759
Thank you so much for helping me with all those.
For the allocation and the angle of all those time restricted pedestrian zone are placed unfairly to the drivers as the signs are not informing the vehicle approaching to the entrance of the street.
Just for information: example of better sign-post
There is a new sign-post placed at some of the junctions which I found at least 1 (374 South Circular Road, Wandsworth)
Entering from Upper Richmond Road into Dryburgh Road.
Location : https://maps.app.goo.gl/2khamyL2QnSdkv3B7
https://i.imgur.com/nfhDyOh.png
https://i.imgur.com/7Wa29HF.png
https://i.imgur.com/8pJLarH.png
Which seems to be more sufficient
1). Slightly into the Dryburgh Road even If missed No turning sign.
2). It will or should be LED lighted at the time restricted even if the driver had no access to a watch.
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@marie every day is a bit over the top, once a week is fine. As soon as the amount goes up to £205, go and get the form sworn and then email it to tec@justice.gov.uk
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@cp8759
Thank you so much for this, I have read and prepared the PE3 form.
(https://i.imgur.com/946utDG.png)
As my Charge Certificate is dated 2025.01.28, and I have been back and forth with the Lambeth Parking Services,I have no idea when the date I am supposed to submit PE3.
Lambeth Parking Services - view PCN
https://pcnevidence.lambeth.gov.uk/pcnonline/index.php
(https://i.imgur.com/j4uX4iI.png)
Does this mean I have to check this site everyday?
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@H C Andersen
Thanks
Yes it is at high cost as the insurance dealt with the hire bike.
They supply new motorbike and new helmet.
What I understood was that:
They cannot take any risk to supply second hand vehicles in case there is any issues with the vehicle they won't take any chances for the vehicle they send out breaking down and have any accident.
They probably sell the used motorbike after its been used.
I wish not to make things even more complicated to dispute against the hire firm. If I could avoid...
I believe they have all that they need in the file as they do check the licence online with the DVLA and they have taken my Licence number to check.
My insurance and all they needed they had added Pillion cover on top for this hire (with age restriction).
A. Particulars of person signing statement of liability*
YES : Full Name.
YES : Date of birth.
YES : Permanent Address.
YES : Address at time of hiring (if different from 3 above and stay is likely to be more than two months from date of hiring).
YES : Details of Driving licence - as FULL
N/A : a). Country where issued - as it is UK
NO : b). Serial number or Driver number - as DVLA Licence check Completed
NO : c). Date of expiry (which should be no later than date specified in B7 below). - as it is answers Licence Expired : NO - date not specified.
* Where the statement of liability is in Part II of form H, the full name and address of the person by or on whose behalf the statement of liability was signed should be supplied together with the date on which it was signed. If the person taking possession of the vehicle is not the same as the person by or on whose behalf the statement was signed, the full name of that person should also be supplied (if known).
B. Particulars of hiring agreements
YES : Registration mark of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.
YES : Make and model of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.
N/A : Registration mark of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement. - as supplied only 1 vehicle stated above.
N/A : Make and model of any vehicle substituted for the above during the currency of the hiring agreement.
N/A : Time and date of any change of vehicle.
YES : Time and date of commencement of original hiring period.
NO : Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period. - as it was depended on the insurance company.
N/A : Time and date of commencement of authorised extension of hiring period.
N/A : Expected time and date of expiry of authorised extension of hiring period.
N/A : Actual time and date of return of vehicle (or when vehicle returned out of hours time and date on which vehicle-hire firm next opened for business). - as the agreement was signed before I returned the vehicle few month later.
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Does your 'hiring agreement' contain all of the following particulars?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made
- £200+ per day for hire!!
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@marie you need to read this guide and just follow the instructions https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
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No wonder I did not realise I had so many replies,
I was checking for the notifications in the messages in this account
and not my own email account.
This is how bad my brain is at the moment.
@DWMB2
Thanks for moving the post to the right forum, I did read the ‘Before posting’ but could not take in so much information…
@Hippocrates
Thank you very much
I have signed the petition before posting
@H C Andersen
The vehicle was hired to me and I signed the ‘Agreement’ I assume the liability is with in the agreement as standard.
This particular PCN was addressed to me by my name and address as I received at my address on 2024.12.18.
“ Add image of Hire agreement ”
Hire Agreement start date 2024.10.23
https://imgur.com/a/MWzQmT7
@Enceladus
Was it my misunderstanding and shot myself in the head?
I was on-line to try to informally challenge it which was not possible. Therefore I made a phone call to explain believing that the reason why I was not able to submit the informal challenge via on-line was because the name of the PCN was changed to me from the hire company.
I was given the email address by the lady I spoke on the phone on 020 7926 9000
In the email I sent on the next day of receiving the email,
I supplied
PCN number - which they would have all the info attached within their system
Reg number
My name
I was trying to do as much as I could with my confused brain with headache and Tinnitus and I might not had composed the email correctly.
I have been having problems with processing words, language and massed of information. And still dealing with the insurance company, NHS and Chiropractor etc.
I have emailed, called, posted, plus I have submitted on-line challenge which on 2025.02.23 was rejected on
I have to go through by timeline to upload as much as I can.
My apology for taking time due to my brain which gets confused and lose focus then get headache.
“ Add all pages ”
PCN Received 2024.12.18 (Dated 2024.12.13)
https://imgur.com/a/pcn-received-2024-12-18-dated-2024-12-13-p8Bfbi5
CC Received 2025.02.04 (Dated 2025.01.28)
https://imgur.com/a/iX5Bmz6
Letter (Rejected?) Received 2025.02.18 (Dated 2025.02.11)
https://imgur.com/a/vUcAX7l
Letter with copies of my previous letters Received 2025.03.03 (Dated 2025.02.21)
https://imgur.com/a/pRpE0Eh
Letter Received 2025.03.03 (Dated 2025.02.27)
https://imgur.com/a/1jSrWMn
@Enceladus
I read it somewhere it would go to county court at some point? And affect my license points or something. I might have read it wrong knowing my brain…
@cp8759
“ Add notice of rejection “ all pages
Added above,
Additional document : Online Challenge Submission
https://imgur.com/a/t5RDMv7
Apologise for taking so long to reply, it is really hard.
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@marie can we please see all sides of all pages of the notice of rejection? Please leave the date of the notice visible. If what you've said is correct, this should be a really easy appeal and you don't need to bother with the TEC process at all, but I need to see the NOR in full to be sure.
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Since the OP raised the question: "They also hold our personal information and this could even affect our personal credit score."
This won't affect your credit score. It's not like a County Court Judgement which would be recorded with the credit rating agencies.
What happens next or rather what to do about it depends on whose name and address is on the PCN and the Charge Certificate. And the hire agreement, if there is one.
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Sometimes Barbour Logic is intermittent. environment@lambeth is acceptable.
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Also this concerns a London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 PCN. There is no informal representation stage with these. The person or entity to whom the PCN is addressed can only submit a "formal" representation.
And any such representation should be made using the instructions on the PCN. You haven't posted up all of the PCN pages but does the PCN say that you can submit a representation to the email address environment@lambeth.gov.uk? I doubt that it does. And did you supply your name and address as well as the PCN number and car reg?
The "rejection" is not a proper Notice of Rejection of your representation, even though it implies it is, as it does not provide any details as to how to appeal the matter to the Independent Adjudicator.
It is a response to your follow up phone calls. Please post up any missing pages.
Please answer HCA's questions above?
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OP, let's get who's who sorted out first, it's important.
Contravention : PCN 53j - Entering the Time Restricted Pedestrian Street - Bowling Green Street
Location : Bowling Green St, London SE11 4QA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dN8Phx5aE6KQxoH49
Entered turning left from Kennington Road at 2.45pm on Thursday 21st November 2024
Time restriction : Monday to Friday 8.15am - 9.15am and 2.45pm - 3.45pm.
I was on the courtesy motorcycle, the initial PCN was redirected to my name and was sent to my address.
The PCN was issued to me on the 13/Dec/2024 which I received on 18/Dec/2024.
I was on the courtesy motorcycle, the initial PCN was redirected to my name and was sent to my address.
No such thing as a 'courtesy' vehicle in this process, you either had a vehicle hired to you by a vehicle hire company in respect of which you'd signed a 'statement of liability' or you didn't.
Pl forget about the contravention, this doesn't enter into matters until we know who in law is liable to pay any penalty.
So, to whom was the PCN addressed? You by name or what?
Do you have a 'hire agreement' and if so we need to see it pl.
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@marie I have dealt with this outfit many times. Just wait for the Order for Recovery and tick the PE form box which states you made representations but did not receive a notice of rejection. This need to be signed in front of a witness, either a solicitor or county court - the latter id free but needs an appointment.
I am more than happy to assist.
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This is a council PCN so I have moved this post to the Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/) forum.
To help the users there provide you with the best advice, please read the following thread carefully and provide as much of the information it requests as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**, This section is for council, TFL, Dart/Mersey/Tyne etc. cases (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/)
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Quite URGENT matter as I have no idea what happens next.
@cp8759
Lambeth - PCN 53j - Charge Certificate £195 before receiving the rejection letter even though I was in contact via phone call and emailed as I was told to.
Authority : Lambeth Council
Contravention : PCN 53j - Entering the Time Restricted Pedestrian Street - Bowling Green Street
Location : Bowling Green St, London SE11 4QA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dN8Phx5aE6KQxoH49
Entered turning left from Kennington Road at 2.45pm on Thursday 21st November 2024
Time restriction : Monday to Friday 8.15am - 9.15am and 2.45pm - 3.45pm.
I was on the courtesy motorcycle, the initial PCN was redirected to my name and was sent to my address.
The PCN was issued to me on the 13/Dec/2024 which I received on 18/Dec/2024.
I wanted to informally challenge the PCN and I believed that even my case was to be rejected, the charge will still be at discounted amount at £65.
PCN Arrived on 2024.Dec.18
(https://i.imgur.com/tFsJGWR.png)
I tried on-line informal challenge but the on-line system was not allowing me to do anything.
I called 020 7926 9000 and spoke to a lady called Angie and explained the situation.
She had told me to emailed to environment@lambeth.gov.uk and explain the situation.
She also told me to call back and ask to get the confirmation on email being logged to the system.
So I emailed on 19/Dec/2024, which I have the copy of the email in my sent box in my email account.
Email I sent dated 2024.Dec.19
(https://i.imgur.com/VAOQWRG.png)
I also called back on 6/Jan/2025 to ask to check but the different lady who I spoke then told me that she was not able to check.
And she told me to wait for the post.
Dates of Calls I made
(https://i.imgur.com/kNaQOJf.png)
I waited.
Then 4/Feb/2025 I was surprised by Charge Certificate.
And the charge was increased at not just £130 but £195.
And they are saying they will increase the fee after the 14 days from 28th January.
Arrived on 2025.02.04
(https://imgur.com/gukRikb)
There were no access other than the postal service and those dates they state as 14 days are not actually 14 days as there are time delays.
Then the rejection letter dated 2025.Feb.11
Arrived on 2025.02.18
(https://i.imgur.com/PX9gs1t.png)
Every contact I made had not given me the right information or explanation for me to understand in order to make the choice suited to my situation.
They are dealing with PCN day in and day out and their profession is to reject as many PCN as possible with no personal risk to them. All the letters I received has no name and I am against a brick wall.
For anyone receiving PCN, it is personal and the stake is too high for the risk we take to challenging it.
They also hold our personal information and this could even affect our personal credit score.
I was involved in an accident in Oct 2024 and have been having problem with wording composing, simplifying the story also taking in informations are near impossible.
I have not just shot my foot but I seem to have shot in the head by trying to informally challenge, well, I was asking a question in a first place.
I really should have paid £65.
It was genuine mistake in the first place but their system changes made my case even more complicated.
The point in the first place was:
I had entered the street at wrong timing twice before I received the first PCN to realise.
And the sign post is not placed adequately for any vehicle approaching to turn left into the Bowling Green Street that I was not able to notice the signpost.
Since I had received the PCN, I know where the signpost is and I have tried many times to notice the sign post whilst paying attention to any potential hazards, it is impossible as it is not angled to be visible to the vehicle approaching to turn left into the street.
The images I have taken from the road position where I would be riding.
Timing of when the post-van is there, it blocks the view completely
(https://i.imgur.com/3E8m4ZD.jpg)
The Big Tree is hiding the signpost
(https://i.imgur.com/plzJeHC.jpg)
Neither of the signpost is facing vehicle approaching
(https://i.imgur.com/2YK0hC2.jpg)
Able to all the other signpost except the one I got PCN for as it is blended into the background
(https://i.imgur.com/ubOgOSl.jpg)
By the time I am at the junction to enter the street, I am right by the side of the sign and they are above my head. I am waring a full-face helmet and I cannot see above.
But now turned into unfair rejection with the increased charge and power harassment by the authority.
The stress it is causing and hardship with the threat to increase the charge plus the court fee etc.
Anyone who has no time, no energy, not enough knowledge to deal with the matter are threatened to pay the charge.
Which used to be dealt with a simple phone call with a real person and the situation was to be listened and taken into account, the genuine mistake was not to be penalised / punished.
It seems anyone wanting to challenge it, has to take up so much learning to even ask a question.
I don’t know where to get help, who I am supposed to be talking to, it is getting out of hand.
I have no idea when this will be going to court or will I get informed?
I don’t even know what I have to do to get this charge dropped or at least at £65
Asking for a solicitor will increase the cost even more and what am I supposed to be doing with this matter?