Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: EllzBellz on March 03, 2025, 03:29:36 pm
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An absolutely basic error that surely must exist in a lot of council PCNs in the whole of the UK, I would think !
This council and Haringey have the same wording in this context; but, I also pointed out the following:
PCN does not state mandatory information at 4.8 (v)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
They also said the date of PCN and date served are the same. Totally absurd. ::)
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An absolutely basic error that surely must exist in a lot of council PCNs in the whole of the UK, I would think !
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mpB3obxgDkbzTrC_YbGNPC7K3vhqqKIt/view).
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We discussed it yes.
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Any comments on whether a contravention even occurred?
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;D ;D ;D PCN validity. Decision tomorrow.
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We are! Filed.
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As above. I will drop you a PM if you want me to repsrent you free of charge.
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After having failed to properly consider your representations, the council have even less of a leg to stand on. They are just hoping you'll be scared into paying, which is at best disingenuous as there's clearly no contravention shown in the video.
You will have to risk the full sum to take this to adjudication, but I'm confident that you'll end up with nothing to pay. Check what others say first, but I think the best course of action is for you to follow the instructions on the NTO about appealing to the adjudicator and simply tell them that you 'rely on the representations perviously made to the Council and the Council's failure to properly consider them'. Choose a telephone/online/or in person hearing, not an 'on the papers' ruling.
The Council will then have to prepare an evidence pack for the adjudicators, at which point they will be forced to actually look at the video that shows no contravention. They may well fold and offer no evidence, meaning you win (and the Council has to pay an adjudication fee).
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The response completely fails to consider your actual arguments. I would definitely take this further.
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Thank you
I can use this in my appeal also?
Just the PCN issue from me. Mr Chips will be along. The website can wait until later.
My suggested draft:
1. The alleged contravention did not occur as the video quality is (i) so poor and (ii) even playing it several times it just about shows there is no contravention of entering and stopping due to the presence of stationary vehicles and there was sufficient gap to proceed which I wasn't able to do because of other traffic.
2. The PCN is invalid...............
In light of the above, please cancel.
In my view, this is a most opportunistic attempt to take your money. I am more than happy to represent you at the Tribunal if they wish to take this further.
Hi
I have received the response upholding the PCN see link below
https://imgur.com/a/s8RNeoU
Please advise,
Thank you
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and the one in front of that looks to be sufficiently in front of the box junction that my vehicle could have passed through completely without stopping.
Think you can be firmer here as it's clear you waited for moving traffic to disperse and then easily drove across beyond the box as there was space.
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Note, I couldn't actually see that part of the PCN that Hippocrates quoted from (I could only see the front page), so have simply copied and pasted his argument verbatim.
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Suggested draft representations (building on Hippocrates skeleton). NB, I've assumed the PCN was addressed to you rather than someone else (it will go to the vehicle's registered keeper and they are the ones who should respond, not the driver if that's someone else).
Dear Hounslow,
I would like to submit representations against your recent PCN on the following bases.
1) The alleged contravention did not occur as the video quality is (i) so poor and (ii) even playing it several times one can just about make out that it shows there is no contravention of entering and stopping due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The vehicle in front of my own is at no point stationary, and the one in front of that looks to be sufficiently in front of the box junction that my vehicle could have passed through completely without stopping.
2) The PCN is in any case invalid for the following reason. Under "If you do nothing":
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge Certificate.”
The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1) Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
2) The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—
(a) where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served.
Please see London Tribunals case 224038612A for further confirmation on this point.
For either, or both, of these reasons, you should cancel the PCN.
Kind regards,
XXXXXXX
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Thank you
I can use this in my appeal also?
Just the PCN issue from me. Mr Chips will be along. The website can wait until later.
My suggested draft:
1. The alleged contravention did not occur as the video quality is (i) so poor and (ii) even playing it several times it just about shows there is no contravention of entering and stopping due to the presence of stationary vehicles and there was sufficient gap to proceed which I wasn't able to do because of other traffic.
2. The PCN is invalid...............
In light of the above, please cancel.
In my view, this is a most opportunistic attempt to take your money. I am more than happy to represent you at the Tribunal if they wish to take this further.
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Thank you
I can use this in my appeal also?
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PCN issue:
Under If you do nothing
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council may serve a
charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days
beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £195.00 maybe
payable. We may then send you a Charge Certificate.”
The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it
relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on
that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect
that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2) The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days
beginning—
(a) where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the
penalty charge notice is served.
Case here:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54603/#msg54603
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mq9MAnLdByhCxR5IzpKhvDT7LKlTOHUJ/view
Website issue:
Please screenshot the grounds page to make representations as it will not contain any. We can use this for later - not now. This flaw also applied to their parking contraventions website pages too.
Pending case in May.
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I'll draft something for you tomorrow. I don't know why the PCN is invalid but if Hippocrates says it is, you can be sure that it is!
Re the PCN, a common mistake is for people (and councils!) to believe that any stop within a yellow box junction is an offence. That's not the case - the law specifies it's only an offence if the stop is made necessary by stationary vehicles. So, stopping for a pedestrian walking across your path, or behind a vehicle which isn't stationary is ok. In the video of your incident, you do stop in the box junction but crucially the car "blocking you" never becomes stationary. The vehicle in front of that one is stationary, but it's far enough in front of the box junction that it wasn't necessary for you to stop in the box junction because of it, so that's also ok.
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Interesting one - I'm going no contravention as space opened up for you and other vehicles - car and bike - were not stationary.
Note to all - video quality is as per Hounslow.
(https://i.imgur.com/VsXOD2u.gif)
what does no contravention mean?
Agreed. The only car which stops in the box junction never has a stationary vehicle blocking its exit.
OP, can't see you losing this one if you stick it out to the end.
Could you advise further please?
Also, the PCN is invalid too.
how is the PCN invalid?
Could I say I stopped to give way to other vehicles (the bike)? and due to the unexpected actions of the vehicle in front of me (the car)?
Thanks for the advice I am new to this so not sure of all the terminology.
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Also, the PCN is invalid too.
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We'll need to help you draft reps. Mr Chips may oblige.
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Agreed. The only car which stops in the box junction never has a stationary vehicle blocking its exit.
OP, can't see you losing this one if you stick it out to the end.
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Interesting one - I'm going no contravention as space opened up for you and other vehicles - car and bike - were not stationary.
Note to all - video quality is as per Hounslow.
(https://i.imgur.com/VsXOD2u.gif)
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(PCN) NJ41731881
London borough of Hounslow
Code 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction where prohibited
Bath Road (outside Hounslow West station)
Hi please help with advice on appealing the PCN , this happened as a bus 3 cars ahead stopped and as I went through a green traffic light I entered the box, the bus ahead prevented the flow of traffic from moving and I was stuck on the box without knowing the roads I didn’t know what to do or where to go.
https://imgur.com/a/wN4ATii
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gVHvNVzL5qorWyEa6
Many thanks
Ellie