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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: davec on September 13, 2023, 12:10:22 pm

Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on February 01, 2024, 10:51:19 am
Premature charge certificate issued while the appeal was pending, outcome here (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1DSAtKkOQugFxVNOFPjddNjzyzM-I0XhE).
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on January 16, 2024, 10:37:08 pm
Just to keep the thread updated. Agreed for @cp8759 to represent at the tribunal.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on January 16, 2024, 07:41:22 pm
@davec would you like me to represent you at the tribunal? If so please do not register the appeal yourself.

They've opened one of the links but not the other two, so a failure to consider IMO.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: H C Andersen on January 15, 2024, 03:58:14 pm
Have you registered your appeal? The 28-day period expires on 17 Jan.

You have missed the extended discount period so there's nothing to be lost by registering an appeal.

I suggest:
Contravention did not occur;
Procedural Impropriety.*

You rely upon your formal reps and will upload further representations afyer examination of the authority's evidence.

*- this would capture at least the following:
Did they consider your reps i.e. examine the 'links';
Their response to your request for discretion seems to be that every motorist should comply with traffic signs, which misses the point completely;
They've misstated the period for registering an appeal and their power to issue a charge certificate.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on January 15, 2024, 01:58:24 pm
bump :)
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on January 03, 2024, 02:43:20 pm
Draft representation:

Dear Liverpool City Council,

In the first instance I invite you to cancel the penalty charge based on the following mitigating circumstances. On this occasion I was under serious stress at my day job, and that it was my first shift of my new evening job which is why I was in the city centre, I seldom drive in the city centre and was focused on getting to my new place of work on time, by way of supporting evidence I refer you to the email welcoming me to the company at LINK1 and my shift schedule at LINK2.

The email is dated June 2023 which is when I joined the company and then proceeded to train with the managers. My shift on the 12th September was her first solo shift after I passed my training.

I further draw your attention to the decision in Branislav Baca v Portsmouth City Council (PO00033-2309, 17 November 2023) available from LINK and on the basis of that decision, the PCN should be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,

I will email you a copy with the relevant links.

Happy New Year! Hope you've had a fantastic festive period. Thank you so much for the email, as you know I submitted the representation that same day.

We've received their response today and of course, they've rejected the formal representation ::). I've attached the response to this post.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on December 09, 2023, 03:07:29 pm
Draft representation:

Dear Liverpool City Council,

In the first instance I invite you to cancel the penalty charge based on the following mitigating circumstances. On this occasion I was under serious stress at my day job, and that it was my first shift of my new evening job which is why I was in the city centre, I seldom drive in the city centre and was focused on getting to my new place of work on time, by way of supporting evidence I refer you to the email welcoming me to the company at LINK1 and my shift schedule at LINK2.

The email is dated June 2023 which is when I joined the company and then proceeded to train with the managers. My shift on the 12th September was her first solo shift after I passed my training.

I further draw your attention to the decision in Branislav Baca v Portsmouth City Council (PO00033-2309, 17 November 2023) available from LINK and on the basis of that decision, the PCN should be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,

I will email you a copy with the relevant links.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on December 02, 2023, 04:30:22 pm
I think we should adopt the strategy outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/city-of-edinburgh-02-parked-in-a-restricted-street-lochrin-buildings-gilmour-pla/msg7413/#msg7413

If you're happy to go with that, drop me a PM and I'll set up a link you can provide to them (I'll need a copy of the email from her new employer).

The deadline to make representations is 10 December so we don't have loads of time.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on November 29, 2023, 10:39:36 pm
Does she have any documentary evidence she can use to confirm this? Either something from her day job, or maybe something confirming it was her first shift at her evening job?

I'm sure she has something regarding this being her first shift at her evening job, she should have an email from the employer to be able to provide.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on November 28, 2023, 11:14:48 pm
I've asked her, and all that she can offer is that she was under serious stress at her day job, and that it was her first shift of her new evening job which is why she was in the city centre, and finally that the roadworks were seriously confusing as she rarely drives in the centre.
Does she have any documentary evidence she can use to confirm this? Either something from her day job, or maybe something confirming it was her first shift at her evening job?
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on November 27, 2023, 10:02:31 pm
I've asked her, and all that she can offer is that she was under serious stress at her day job, and that it was her first shift of her new evening job which is why she was in the city centre, and finally that the roadworks were seriously confusing as she rarely drives in the centre.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 06:21:37 pm
I was thinking more of mitigation not connected to the contravention, anything from a recent bereavement, medical issues, a pet being run over or whatever else. It might be that there is nothing at all, but some people don't realise that such extraneous factors amount to mitigation, hence why we ask.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on November 25, 2023, 01:12:17 pm

I don't think it's marked 100% correctly, but as far as I can see your car was within the designated taxi rank. Is there any meaningful mitigation you could put forwards?

One possible angle to pursue on appeal is that the evidence from the council doesn't suffice to show a contravention, but you don't want to point that out now as it would give them a chance to gather further evidence.

Thanks for coming back to me cp, really appreciate your assistance.

I'm unsure what we could put forward in terms of mitigation, other than the fact that there were roadworks going on with conflicting one way signs, stickers & other debris covering parts of the sign and poor lighting at the time of night making the sign difficult to see. But I'm unsure how much impact this would have. The bay markings also seem very confusing, and the yellow line was rather worn out and broken.

Ta, Dave



Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on November 24, 2023, 11:53:30 pm
The relevant entry in the TRO is item 173C on page 188:

All that part of the south westerly side of Seel Street which is bounded on the south west by so much of the edge of the carriageway of that highway as extends from a point 11.5 metres north west of its junction with Back Colquitt Street in a north westerly direction for a distance of 50 metres, all measured along the said road which has a width throughout of 2 metres.

I don't think it's marked 100% correctly, but as far as I can see your car was within the designated taxi rank. Is there any meaningful mitigation you could put forwards?

One possible angle to pursue on appeal is that the evidence from the council doesn't suffice to show a contravention, but you don't want to point that out now as it would give them a chance to gather further evidence.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: Incandescent on November 22, 2023, 09:27:01 pm
It's there in case we need it as part of representations and an appeal. As it says, "for later".
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on November 22, 2023, 08:29:17 pm
For later, The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4).

Sorry, I've just noticed this post. Unsure what I need to do with this I'm afraid
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on November 21, 2023, 12:39:44 pm
We've finally received the NTO which I've attached below. We received this yesterday (20th Nov), however the front page of the letter claims they sent this on the 9th ???

Only name / address have been redacted. Thanks again for your assistance with this.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on October 10, 2023, 05:14:09 pm
For later, The Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone (Liverpool) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tpBqnnQZQO7ZNG1AaFX7rTLZn6WFJSs4).
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on October 07, 2023, 02:42:44 pm
Just wait for the notice to owner and post it on here when you get it.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on October 06, 2023, 12:46:57 pm
It's just an informal rejection.

If you wait for the notice to owner, in almost all instances the council will reoffer the discount as long as you make representations within 14 days. Are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C? If so, is the address up to date?

Yep, she is the registered keeper, has the V5C and the address is up to date. We shall wait for that to come through. Is there anything we should be doing in the mean time, or is it just a waiting game now?
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on October 05, 2023, 07:22:10 pm
It's just an informal rejection.

If you wait for the notice to owner, in almost all instances the council will reoffer the discount as long as you make representations within 14 days. Are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C? If so, is the address up to date?
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on October 03, 2023, 06:04:34 pm
Post all sides. Only redact name & address.
Rep as per 22nd.Sept post?

Thanks, John. Yes that's correct, the rep is the one you see on the post from the 22nd.

Attaching the PDF here.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: John U.K. on October 03, 2023, 02:33:04 pm
Post all sides. Only redact name & address.
Rep as per 22nd.Sept post?
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on October 03, 2023, 01:08:36 pm
I admire your optimism, but it doesn't really work like that. You should assume the council will reject anything you say and we'll have to wait for the notice to owner, make representations again, the council will reject them again, and then we'll have to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It's only at the tribunal stage that you get a fair hearing.

I should've known better  ::)

The council have responded today rejecting the challenge. Shall I post the full PDF here (with personal information redacted) or do you just need specific information from the document?

Ta, Dave :)
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 03:56:05 pm
I admire your optimism, but it doesn't really work like that. You should assume the council will reject anything you say and we'll have to wait for the notice to owner, make representations again, the council will reject them again, and then we'll have to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It's only at the tribunal stage that you get a fair hearing.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 23, 2023, 04:01:41 pm
Thank you so much everyone, I've just lodged the appeal. Hopefully the outcome is in her favour, but regardless I'd like to thank you all for your input and wisdom. It's greatly appreciated :)

I'll be sure to leave an update on this thread once we know the outcome.

Thanks,
Dave
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on September 23, 2023, 03:34:42 pm
Change "outcome of this appeal" to "outcome of this representation".

Other than that it looks fine.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 22, 2023, 08:48:01 pm
Okay, I had a crack at something. Be brutal-- but not too brutal, I have feelings ;)

Quote
Re: Penalty Charge Notice:
Vehicle Registration:
Date of Issuance: 12th September 2023
Alleged Contravention: 45 - Parked on a Taxi Rank

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above, which was issued to me on the 12th September 2023 at 20:13 for the alleged contravention of parking on a taxi rank. I believe that this PCN has been issued unfairly and request that it be reconsidered for the following reasons:

Unclear Signage: At the time when I parked my vehicle, I observed that the signage indicating parking regulations was unclear and illegible due to being obscured by tape and stickers. As such, it was impossible for me to ascertain the restrictions and the times displayed on the sign. I would like to emphasize that it is essential for drivers to have clear and unambiguous signage to ensure compliance with parking regulations.

Contradictory One-Way Signs: Additionally, the situation was further complicated by the presence of a contraflow arrangement in the area. This resulted in some "one-way" signs pointing in one direction while others pointed in the opposite direction. It is crucial to note that one-way signs carry legal significance and are pivotal for road users' compliance. The existence of contradictory signage raises concerns about the council's administrative and organisational competence, potentially leading to confusion among drivers.

Ambiguity of the Area: The location where I parked is evidently a pay and display area during certain times, transforming into a taxi rank during nighttime hours. However, due to the obscured sign, it was impossible for me to discern that I was within the restricted time period for parking on a taxi rank. Clarity and transparency in signage are essential to prevent inadvertent violations.

In light of the aforementioned factors, I kindly request that you review my appeal and consider the circumstances presented. I believe that, given the unclear signage and contradictory one-way signs, the penalty charge in this case should be waived.

I trust that you will give due consideration to the evidence provided and the points raised in this letter. I look forward to receiving a prompt response regarding the outcome of this appeal. Please find my contact information below for any further correspondence.

Sincerely,
My missus
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on September 22, 2023, 05:30:56 pm
There are no templates as each case is unique. Just try drafting something yourself, put the draft on here and we'll tidy it up for you.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 21, 2023, 04:40:28 pm
Hi there,

Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been away for a few days. Thank you so much for all of your advice. I think to begin with I'm going to go down the route of explaining that the sign was obscured, and as previously stated the evidence photos don't show an awful lot of anything.

I've never written up anything like this before, so are there any resources around for standard templates that I should follow, or an article on the forum I could take a look at?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: cp8759 on September 15, 2023, 10:57:51 pm
So here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4HhnmVQad45Tmkhw6

I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime you should post a draft representation based on the suggestions above, as long as you make a challenge during the initial discount period they will almost certainly reoffer the discount.

I had a look at Liverpool's templated paragraphs (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1RoA4TG1j9EXU-Cvg02xpqbgSdRwXKIWM) have this wording:

Seel Street
The bays at this location are for taxis only during the hours of 8pm and 6am as clearly stated on the time plates running the length of the bays which measure approximately 50 metres. During the hours of 8am – 6pm the bays are pay & display. Your explanation is that you parked within the bays believing they were standard pay & display so assumed they were free to park in after 6pm, however you cannot assume all bays within the city centre are the same and each are sign posted to reflect any other restrictions that may come into effect.


It's probably worth referencing this, but as I said post a draft in your own words first and we'll tidy it up for you. You have until 25 September to make representations and preserve the discount, so there is a bit of time.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: H C Andersen on September 13, 2023, 07:46:33 pm


And yet the one-way sign is visible and it indicates a legal requirement, which brings into question the council's administrative and organisational competence which might bear fruit...but it's a long-shot.

I must say that the presence of the dividing line with the adjacent post and traffic sign suggests that perhaps there was/is a P&D place to the left. And if you look at the far end you'll see the same sign...and what could be seen as end-bay markings. Odd.

cp has a way of getting relevant traffic orders in double-quick time, so perhaps he will be able to obtain this.

In the meantime, as per DD, I think you should make reps on the grounds that the sign was unclear. Remember, all the authority have is the CEO's notes and photos, and the photos are blurred and unreadable, so if you say that part of the sign was unreadable they couldn't know otherwise other than to look, they couldn't rely on the CEO's photos which neither confirm nor deny your assertion.
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 13, 2023, 06:47:00 pm
The other aspect which confuses me is that the post behind the car carries a one-way street sign(clear in GSV and just discernible in the council's photos)but the car is facing the wrong way...and so is the car behind in the council's photos!

Ah, there are roadworks currently, so traffic is being routed the wrong way. City centres  ::)
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: DancingDad on September 13, 2023, 05:28:14 pm
Not a chance IMO re signage, it is clear enough to hear an adjudicator say substantially compliant.
If the traffic order can be tracked down there is a chance that it is flawed...this based on the sign obviously being changed to No Stopping?
Sorry, it's all I've got
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 13, 2023, 02:36:47 pm
Council's evidence photos attached.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: H C Andersen on September 13, 2023, 02:18:26 pm
The council's photos pl. (I've viewed them)

Having looked at Seel St. the broad yellow no stopping road marking is in place, so even if the was some ambiguity on the driver's part regarding what the traffic sign showed (I can assure you they'll be none on the council's part) what did they think this was at 8.13, an unregulated length of street?

The council's photo of the traffic sign is blurred, but photos aren't a legal requirement.

The road marking behind the car is out of place - it's an internal parking place marking in a place which has no internal divisions. But it doesn't really bear upon the issues here because the car was parked next to the no stopping line.

The other aspect which confuses me is that the post behind the car carries a one-way street sign(clear in GSV and just discernible in the council's photos)but the car is facing the wrong way...and so is the car behind in the council's photos!
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 13, 2023, 01:27:14 pm
Hi John,

I've added these to the original post. Thanks!
Title: Re: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: John U.K. on September 13, 2023, 12:48:59 pm
Please post up both sides of the PCN. Do not redact any info.
Title: Council PCN with partially obscured signage & unclear bay markings
Post by: davec on September 13, 2023, 12:10:22 pm
Hi, hoping some of you experts can help out with this one.

Last night, my other half received a PCN from the local council for parking in a pay & display bay, that also has a yellow "No Stopping" sign above it. The start time on the no stopping sign is partially obscured by what looks like duct tape, and at quick glance she figured she was okay to park there. She came back to a lovely PCN notice stuck on the windscreen.

The bay she was parked in also had what looks like a really worn out yellow line through it. I know that a broken yellow line can sometimes be enough to be able to fight these, so I'm hoping that something could be done here.

Pictures attached.

Hope you can help, thank you so much in advance :)

[attachment deleted by admin]