Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bnorth on February 21, 2025, 08:06:58 pm
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At this point it is important that you respond to recent posts made by members.
And ask any questions you may have, to aid your understanding.
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I understand the confusion, but according to the OP they have never been the owner, this was their father.(but 'I' as opposed to 'he' does rather come across, so who's actually who?)
If as per the OP, then it's their father's circumstances during the 'in-time' period which are key.
We haven't had any info direct from the father.
We're told by the OP that they had and continue to have health problems and I have suggested that on behalf of their father they contact bailiffonline to see whether they might be able to compile a compelling OOT which fits the circumstances.
Who knows?
OP, your continued procrastination and failure to post the Notice of Enforcement is likely to mean that your father would be charged the additional £235.
Paying has NOTHING to do with which TEC form is used. Pl get on with it!
As I and others have explained in detail, the circumstances of the PCN etc. are for the moment irrelevant. You were told which grounds applied for a SD to be submitted.
This is the process in which your father is embroiled:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/understanding-enforcement-process
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And here's the clue >
- The letter posted as a picture. All that was included in this was a statutory declaration form. I did not send this back. There was no form to submit a witness statement, I have no received such a form
The OP pushed themself Out OF TIme by not completing the initial Stat Dec.
And bnorth, you need to understand what we mean by out of time; this has now vecome purely procedural because you failed to complete a step because you were expecting a different form.
Could you give me more information on that process? Will I get the opportunity to submit my evidence again to TFL and request a refund of the fine amount?
You do not currently have any way of challenging the pcn itself; you first need to get it back to that stage, as members are explaining.
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What I'm not sure about is which form should be used. As ULEZ is a road user charging scheme I would expect that Form TE9 is needed, plus Form TE7 because the OP would be submitting out-of-time.
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Pretty sure it's PE forms.
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??/04/2024 = date of vehicle sale
26/08/2024 = date of alleged ULEZ infringement
03/09/2024 = date of PCN
17/09/2024 = date of docs sent to DVLA and TFL
16/10/2024 = Charge Cert
07/11/2024 = TFL log receipt of representation
25/11/2024 = SUS28 Late Representation Further Evidence (16/12/2024)
16/12/2024 = TFL Order for Recovery authorised
06/02/2024 = Warrant authorised
??/02/2025 = Notice of Enforcement CDER
17/02/2024 = Notice of Enforcement Reminder Notice
The above is the sequence of events, so far as I can determine from your account and the case progression from the TFL site.
When did your Dad sell the car? IE the date the money changed hands. Why are you so vague about it? The details must be in the ebay history and the seller's email address.
What does "My Dad had long since removed the car from the MID (Trade Insurance)....." mean? Is Dad a motor trader?
17/09/2024 "All I have is a payment made to the post office on the day in question which WOULD add up to the correct amount for postage for two a4 manilla envelopes ....". Presumably one to the DVLA and one to TFL posted on the 17th. Do you have a receipt for the postage? Or anything to show the payment? Or what is it you have?
CDER posted a Notice of Enforcement to Dad, sometime on or after the 6th Feb but before the 17th Feb. Did he receive the Notice of Enforcement? I don't mean the reminder letter of the 17th Feb. What's the date of the NoE?
From the history above, if it is correct, it would seem that representations were posted well within the 28 day relevant period. So on any TE9 Witness Statement form tick the box, one box only, that says "I made representations about the penalty charge to the Charging Authority concerned, within 28 days of the service of the Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice."
The Witness Statement (TE9) will require an accompanying Out of Time application (TE7). On this you will need to put good reason to be late. And that's the only thing that the TEC will consider. so what are you intending to put on it? TFL will also be sent a copy and can object.
So I'm going to suggest that you also write to TFL telling them that you have submitted a Witness Statement to the effect that you did not receive any response to your representation posted 17/09/2024. Point out that you were not the owner or keeper of the car on the date of the contravention. The car had been sold to Ms Speedy @ address on the nn/04/2024 and here is a printout of the ebay sale transaction, ebay bill to the seller, bank statement show funds transferred and so on with whatever you have. Point out that it would not be in the interests of justice and it would bring TFL and the ULEZ into disrepute to continue to pursue the PCN since Dad was not the owner or keeper of the vehicle on the date of contravention. Ask them not to oppose your Witness Statement.
See what others have to say as such a letter is a bit out of process. And I hardly ever advise anyone to step out of process.
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This is slightly outside my area of expertise, but in order to beat the PCN you would need to get back into the official process (which you are currently outside of because TFL don't think your father has engaged with the official process within the stated timescales).
One way of doing that is to submit an out of time declaration with compelling reasons for missing the deadlines. Unfortunately in so doing you are throwing yourself at the discretion of the court (and TFL) and experience of many posters on here is that more often than not they reject such requests. But if it is worded well, and the reasons are strong, there is a chance.
Yes, that is indeed the ONLY way of getting the matter reverted to the PCN stage. What I'm not sure about is which form should be used. As ULEZ is a road user charging scheme I would expect that Form TE9 is needed, plus Form TE7 because the OP would be submitting out-of-time.
So here is Form TE7 for the OOT request
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c73ad0d3bf7f4bd6a9bc69/te7-dart-eng.pdf
and here is Form TE9 for the actual Witness Statement
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62e14db38fa8f5649f912647/TE9.pdf
Question is - do any of the circumstances on the TE9 fit the OP's situation ?
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This is slightly outside my area of expertise, but in order to beat the PCN you would need to get back into the official process (which you are currently outside of because TFL don't think your father has engaged with the official process within the stated timescales).
One way of doing that is to submit an out of time declaration with compelling reasons for missing the deadlines. Unfortunately in so doing you are throwing yourself at the discretion of the court (and TFL) and experience of many posters on here is that more often than not they reject such requests. But if it is worded well, and the reasons are strong, there is a chance.
There is no reason for it to have been out of time, because I sent the evidence well in time. By the time they admitted the evidence existed and they had received it, it was outside of the time and they were demanding a reason for the delay. I have no excuse for it, there is no excuse for it. Because I reacted straight away. But they won't admit they had the evidence. How do I convince them there's a compelling reason when the mistake is theirs. This whole situation is moronic and we are not in the wrong. We hadn't even seen the vehicle in nearly 6 months. It's ludicrous.
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This is slightly outside my area of expertise, but in order to beat the PCN you would need to get back into the official process (which you are currently outside of because TFL don't think your father has engaged with the official process within the stated timescales).
One way of doing that is to submit an out of time declaration with compelling reasons for missing the deadlines. Unfortunately in so doing you are throwing yourself at the discretion of the court (and TFL) and experience of many posters on here is that more often than not they reject such requests. But if it is worded well, and the reasons are strong, there is a chance.
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Paying now is just a means to limit the potential loss. Meanwhile you can go about beating the original penalty charge (hopefully).
Could you give me more information on that process? Will I get the opportunity to submit my evidence again to TFL and request a refund of the fine amount?
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Paying now is just a means to limit the potential loss. Meanwhile you can go about beating the original penalty charge (hopefully).
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Paying is not the end, so pl don't consider it as such.
what do you mean by this?
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Paying is not the end, so pl don't consider it as such.
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Thanks.
IMO, pay the bailiff. This does not affect your father's position as regards what I've set out below but would cap his liability. If a bailiff visits his house to seize goods, which could happen at any time after the NoE payment period has lapsed, then an additional £235 would be added to the debt. I'm assuming that your letter received on 20 Feb. is a NoE. Pl post this.
IMO, the key procedure issues at this point are why the Order for Recovery (OfR) dated 16 Dec. was not actioned in the period allowed, 21 days, and what can be done now that this time has lapsed and a warrant has been issued.
Taking the second point, the only procedural step is to submit a Statutory Declaration (SD)to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.(look at the time line and you'll see that they became involved when the OfR was issued). The issues here are whether any of the permitted grounds apply and, given that TfL may object to your SD being accepted, what compelling arguments can be made by your father.
Grounds for SD
According to you, reps were submitted in time but for some reason not receipted by TfL until after the applicable period had elapsed(let's not go to TfL delaying opening the letter!). In any event, they disregarded those reps but not by virtue of being submitted by an unentitled person but because they were submitted late.
Pl post those reps and their reply.
If reps were submitted in time by an entitled person in the prescribed form then your father has grounds on which to submit a SD.
The arguments regarding lateness of the SD submission i.e. why the OfR dated 16 Dec. was not actioned are a different matter. I suspect that any argument would revolve around your father's personal circumstances e.g. was a able to manage his affairs at this time etc. and in this respect I suggest you contact bailiffadviceonline.
Thank you so much for your response.
I have posted the bailiff letter on the first, main post of this thread, the one from the CDER Group. This is the latest and only communications not from PCN-related people (TFL, is it?). It is my intention to contact the bailiff advice first thing on monday. But I think I'm realising that paying it is the move. It's a shame because I feel screwed over despite doing the right thing and not even being the culpable party, but things happen, I guess. If there's any more information you'd like me to provide let me know. I have not got the letter from TFL saying the representation was late; I don't know where it is but I know I had it. The reason was it was out of time, but that it was an unentitled person.
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Thanks.
IMO, pay the bailiff. This does not affect your father's position as regards what I've set out below but would cap his liability. If a bailiff visits his house to seize goods, which could happen at any time after the NoE payment period has lapsed, then an additional £235 would be added to the debt. I'm assuming that your letter received on 20 Feb. is a NoE. Pl post this.
IMO, the key procedure issues at this point are why the Order for Recovery (OfR) dated 16 Dec. was not actioned in the period allowed, 21 days, and what can be done now that this time has lapsed and a warrant has been issued.
Taking the second point, the only procedural step is to submit a Statutory Declaration (SD)to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.(look at the time line and you'll see that they became involved when the OfR was issued). The issues here are whether any of the permitted grounds apply and, given that TfL may object to your SD being accepted, what compelling arguments can be made by your father.
Grounds for SD
According to you, reps were submitted in time but for some reason not receipted by TfL until after the applicable period had elapsed(let's not go to TfL delaying opening the letter!). In any event, they disregarded those reps but not by virtue of being submitted by an unentitled person but because they were submitted late.
Pl post those reps and their reply.
If reps were submitted in time by an entitled person in the prescribed form then your father has grounds on which to submit a SD.
The arguments regarding lateness of the SD submission i.e. why the OfR dated 16 Dec. was not actioned are a different matter. I suspect that any argument would revolve around your father's personal circumstances e.g. was a able to manage his affairs at this time etc. and in this respect I suggest you contact bailiffadviceonline.
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Time is not on 'your' side, so let's cut to the chase. Pl excuse my brevity, I empathise with your and your father's position, but this is about legal processes.
Here they are:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/understanding-enforcement-process
There's no 'we' sold. Only the owner may sell, so who is it? If the owner and registered keeper was your father then unless authorised in writing you have no standing in this matter. It's your father who has to respond to a PCN and Order for Recovery.
Pl strip out all non-essential matters from your account and focus on the key issues(you need to distil the facts to those which count at this stage):
Who was the recipient of the PCN(the addressee);
Date of issue;
When, how and by whom were reps made to the enforcement authority;
Was a NOR received, if so date of issue;
Date of Charge Certificate;
Date of Order for Recovery;
Date of Notice of Enforcement?
Recipient: My father
Date of issue of the PCN: 03/09/24
Reps were made by my dad by mail and posted: 17/09/24 (apparently not received by them until after the 28 days had elapsed)
NOR, I'm not sure on this one. I have included the time-line from the TFL website.
Date of Charge Certificate: 16/10/24 (I think, this is in the attached picture)
Date of Order for recovery: 16/12/24
Date of notice of enforcement: Not sure if what we have counts as this, The Reminder notice I attached at the top has a date of 17/02/25.
I appreciate you being straight to the point. I am available for any further requests for info.
Thank you
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Time is not on 'your' side, so let's cut to the chase. Pl excuse my brevity, I empathise with your and your father's position, but this is about legal processes.
Here they are:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/understanding-enforcement-process
There's no 'we' sold. Only the owner may sell, so who is it? If the owner and registered keeper was your father then unless authorised in writing you have no standing in this matter. It's your father who has to respond to a PCN and Order for Recovery.
Pl strip out all non-essential matters from your account and focus on the key issues(you need to distil the facts to those which count at this stage):
Who was the recipient of the PCN(the addressee);
Date of issue;
When, how and by whom were reps made to the enforcement authority;
Was a NOR received, if so date of issue;
Date of Charge Certificate;
Date of Order for Recovery;
Date of Notice of Enforcement?
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Oh dear, oh dear ! What a pity you never came on this forum a lot earlier, it could all have been sorted out.
You have posted an Order for Recovery date 16th December 2024. Included with this letter would have been a form to submit a Witness Statement. You don't mention anything about this other than saying you received it. If you had submitted this WS form to the Traffic Enforcement Centre soon after receipt, the OfR would have been cancelled, and the matter would have been reverted to the stage when you submitted representations to TfL against the PCN. However, it's not entirely clear what you responded to or not.
Before we can even begin to give advice, can you please update your thread after reading this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
It might be prudent to also contact: -
www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk
They and also ourselves cannot give advice without sight of documents.
Hello,
Could you please elaborate on what I am missing from this post? I thought I had followed the procedure.
The contact I've had with them is:
- The original PCN was returned was part of the pack when I sent the mail on 17/09/24.
- A phone call where I asked if they had received the pack.
- The letter they sent when they explained it was outside of the time limit to present a case, where they explained they had received the documents, finally, but it was "too late"
- The letter posted as a picture. All that was included in this was a statutory declaration form. I did not send this back. There was no form to submit a witness statement, I have no received such a form
- A phone call yesterday after the bailiff letter was received where the PCN representative told me to do a statutory declaration.
I've never had to deal with this stuff before. That is all the contact I've had. I've had about 3 phone calls and posted the pack on 17th September. I've not contacted anyone else or sent anything else as a response. Let me know if there's anything else you need me to post to update this topic, because I feel a bit lost. If I have not included anything saying I have responded to them or sent something back, it is because I have not done so.
Thank you SO much for your response. You have already been very helpful.
Edit: I have added the letter we got sent from the bailiff people that was received yesterday and reminder letter from October which we ignored because, as far as I knew, I had dealt with the situation.
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Oh dear, oh dear ! What a pity you never came on this forum a lot earlier, it could all have been sorted out.
You have posted an Order for Recovery date 16th December 2024. Included with this letter would have been a form to submit a Witness Statement. You don't mention anything about this other than saying you received it. If you had submitted this WS form to the Traffic Enforcement Centre soon after receipt, the OfR would have been cancelled, and the matter would have been reverted to the stage when you submitted representations to TfL against the PCN. However, it's not entirely clear what you responded to or not.
Before we can even begin to give advice, can you please update your thread after reading this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
It might be prudent to also contact: -
www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk
They and also ourselves cannot give advice without sight of documents.
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Hello,
This is in regard to a PCN issued to my father for a vehicle we sold approximately 3-4 months before the infraction was recorded.
Last year, around April, we sold the vehicle in question to a buyer on ebay. I have the bank transfer details, the name and address of the buyer and a full chat history between my father and the buyer discussing and agreeing to the terms and sale of the vehicle. Once sold the log book was posted off and no more was thought of it.
However, around the first or second week of September last year, we received a letter in the post which was a PCN showing the vehicle had been recorded in London on 26/08/2024. On the same day we received a letter from the DVLA saying that this vehicle had been seen as on the road, despite not being taxed. These were, of course, sent to my father's name. Upon contacting the DVLA we determined that, somehow, the log book had not reached its destination and the ownership had not been changed. My dad had long since removed the car from the MID (Trade Insurance) and the car had been previously SORNed off before the sale so, of course we didn't receive any notification of tax cancellation. I also called the Congestion Charge line, who were incredibly unhelpful once the answer to "Is this your car?" was answered with "No", but I eventually determined that I needed to prove the vehicle had been sold.
So, I put a package together outlining the sale, showing the ebay listing, the bid, the chat logs, the name and address of the buyer and a screenshot of the payment made on a banking app, put it in an envelope and posted a copy of each, along with a concise and dated (September 17th) cover letter, to both the DVLA and the congestion charge address.
I did not have any tracking information for them. All I have is a payment made to the post office on the day in question which WOULD add up to the correct amount for postage for two a4 manilla envelopes (but that's not helpful, so I digress)
Within 2 weeks the DVLA contacted us to confirm the charge against my dad was cancelled and he had been removed as the registered keeper of the vehicle, so we assumed all was well. Except over a month goes by and I eventually call the PCN line and ask what the deal is, because my dad was sent ANOTHER letter regarding the charge. I explained the situation, and that I had sent the package containing all the information, and the person on the other end said they had received absolutely no letters of any kind on that vehicle. Not knowing what to do, I tried retrieving the postage information from the Post office, to no avail.
Late November/Early December (2 and a half months after first PCN letter and my postage response) we receive a letter from Congestion Charging stating that our case has been denied because we sent information in too late and it was past the deadline for making any such case. This, of course, is not true, I sent it less than a week after receiving the first PCN letter and they just didn't open it until the deadline had passed.
We have received more than one letter since, not knowing what to do, and yesterday we received a letter saying an enforcement agent would review the situation with a view to visiting the property and seizing goods. All this because they didn't open a letter in time. I don't know what to do and the situation is enfuriating me.
Here is a little more information on the situation.
My dad is dealing with severe issues due to diabetes, meaning he is largely unable to walk and is potentially facing a limb loss, or a stay in hospital to clear veins. This has been ongoing for the past few months.
Further, around September, the time we received the first letter, he was due to go into hospital for a triple bypass, the need being due to a heart attack due to blocked veins and arteries, the event taking place earlier in the year. He has been very, very unwell for some time due to this and has had to stop working. Due to these issues, I had become his carer (fully receiving the gov allowance), which is why I was dealing with it, which is one of the reasons the PCN people wouldn't deal with me. He was unable to deal with this matter himself. His surgery has been delayed and he is still waiting for it, but he is not well and in receipt of allowances from the gov due to the illnesses.
The stress of this is putting more strain on him and he is seriously considering just paying for it to get it out of the way, despite the severe cost it would mean to him personally (I know it's only £355, but it's a lot in his situation).
So, in summary,
- Car Sold around April/May, log book posted but the change didn't happen, not sure why
- Infraction by the new owner 26/08/24
- PCN Arrives around 10th September (My dad due to have bypass surgery 3 days later)
- Surgery is cancelled and my dad begins receiving treatment and scans for vein issues related to diabetes
- I post a large file containing all the documents on 17/09/24. No postage info. Packages sent to the DVLA and PCN
- DVLA confirm change 2 weeks later, no contact from TFL
- Another letter from PCN around middle of October requesting payment again. I ring the PCN people who say they've received nothing
- End of november and we receive a letter stating we have sent information too late (despite everything being sent and dated for 17th September and we are rejected
- 16/12/24 We get a letter demanding £280 from PCN
- Yesterday, 20/2/24 we get a letter threatening enforcement agents unless we pay £355, threating to take property
- Right now my dad is set to go into hospital next wednesday to see if they can fix his veins and save the blood flow to both his feet (one worse than the other) and is on the waiting list for stents as the bypass is too risky for him in his state.
The poor reddit post I angrily put together received an automated reply saying you guys are the experts. At this point I'm tempted to just pay it myself then go after the new owner in small claims because I want to reduce my dad's stress. He has a weak heart and is really struggling financially and physically. If you guys are the ones to listen to, I'll listen to your advice if you tell me to just suck it up and pay it, but I really want to try and give my dad a reason to relax with this matter. I don't know if I have grounds for a statutory declaration, but I think it's awful because I wasn't late with anything, I made it a priority and did it well in time.
Thank you so much, even if you don't respond thanks for taking the time to read. I will be happy to answer any questions.
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