Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Mjet on February 21, 2025, 04:54:06 pm

Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Hippocrates on September 28, 2025, 11:16:42 am
I really like these clearly-articulated decisions.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on September 28, 2025, 12:52:07 am
Quote from: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 07:02:47 pm
I’ve started a new thread here for anyone interested
One thread per case, I've merged the threads for that reason.

Outcome here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/144MTMo5a7JDdZgrR6hQ98SK2AARxflnR/view).
Title: Re: 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayne Rd
Post by: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 08:41:58 pm
One other thing to add which I don’t know if it’s relevant.

The original PCN contravention date is 31/1/25. It went to the lease company and the PCN only came in the post in May. This seems like a very long time. Is this allowed?
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 07:02:47 pm
I’ve started a new thread here for anyone interested
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/53j-failing-to-comply-with-a-restriction-on-vehicles-entering-a-pedest-6909/

Thanks
Title: 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayne Rd
Post by: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 07:00:57 pm
Hi all,

Hope you’re all doing well.

Following on from this topic https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/brent-53j-failing-to-comply-with-a-restriction-on-vehicles-entering-a--5224/

I received a PCN. All the same points as the topic already posted. Just to add they did indeed replace the signage. As of 13 April (I took pictures) the signs were blank. They have since been restored. I have been driving down this road for decades only to be surprised with this.

Another note is that the PCN has come in a relatives name as she is the registered keeper. I was the driver and the car is a leased vehicle. 

https://imgur.com/a/SviGzF3

Thanks
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 06:41:44 pm
Thank you gents for the guidance.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: John U.K. on June 20, 2025, 05:49:56 pm
Quote from: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 04:50:40 pm
Hi all,
I also have a PCN at the same place at the end of January.
The signs were taken down between then and some point about 6 weeks ago and replaced. I have photo evidence of the signs taken down.
Clearly the signage was inadequate.
What is the correct course of action as I’m about to write a first appeal.
Thanks

For advice with your own case please to
have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and start your own thread with
a brief account of all the circumstances (by all means include a reference (link) to this thread),
all sides of the PCN and of all correspondence to and from the Council (redact only yr name & address - leave all else in),
any Council photos,
and
a GSV link to the location.

Quote
I’m about to write a first appeal.

Reps to Council or appeal to tribunal?
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: stamfordman on June 20, 2025, 05:34:32 pm
Quote from: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 04:50:40 pm
What is the correct course of action as I’m about to write a first appeal.

Start your own thread.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Lon217 on June 20, 2025, 04:50:40 pm
Hi all,

I also have a PCN at the same place at the end of January.

The signs were taken down between then and some point about 6 weeks ago and replaced. I have photo evidence of the signs taken down.

Clearly the signage was inadequate.

What is the correct course of action as I’m about to write a first appeal.

Thanks
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: H C Andersen on June 07, 2025, 12:07:12 pm
Photos!

They have produced evidence in the form of photos dated 28 Jan. with the warning sign orientated towards the driver. Within this thread there are also undated photos showing the contrary. Ditto for GSV.

These show at least that the sign could be likened to a windsock and 'blows' where it will depending upon wind direction! More importantly these must surely show/mean that:

The authority attach weight to its orientation because they included it as part of their rationale;

It's not a constant.

What was it like on the date of the contravention? Would you/your rep be able to cast sufficient doubt upon its orientation such as to persuade the adjudicator to allow your appeal? 
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on June 06, 2025, 10:10:55 pm
The next step would be to appeal to the tribunal, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Mjet on June 06, 2025, 01:52:53 pm
Hi @cp8759,

You were right. I’ve just received the rejection notice regarding my case. I completely forgot about this, I can't beleive they took soo long to respond.

You can view the notice here:
https://imgur.com/gallery/pcn-letter-of-rejection-8KnMJRl


Could you please advise on the next steps I should take?

Many thanks,
Min

Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on March 21, 2025, 09:25:29 pm
For later: The Brent (Prescribed Routes) (Pedestrian & Cycle Zone) (No. 3) Experimental Traffic Order 2024 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1riu03aCTU9YHGELHkqX91jP7XPCKqBU8/view)
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on February 25, 2025, 10:31:49 pm
@Mjet just to set expectations, the overwhelming likelihood is that the representations will be rejected, but you certainly have an arguable case to pursue on appeal to the tribunal.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Mjet on February 25, 2025, 07:46:44 pm
Hi @cp8759,
Great thanks . PCN challenged, images included and I have screen grabs of the submission.
Fingers crossed this works, again thank you for all your help :)
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on February 25, 2025, 07:17:10 pm
Well it's worth running the argument, here's a draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Brent,

I contend the alleged contravention did not occur owing to inadequate signage. I was turning left into the road and the regulatory signs are parallel to the kerbline of Chamberlayne Road, the council obviously accept the need for an advance warning sign because one has been placed before the junction. Unfortunately it is clear that the sign before the junction has been knocked out of position, I refer you to the attached images.

In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur, it follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Please send the following two images with your representation:

(https://i.imgur.com/6MduOLq.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rCUSKq7.png)

Don't forget to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Mjet on February 25, 2025, 12:51:08 pm
Yes, I missed that one yesterday. but the following sign just after the bus stop is the one thats facing to the left.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Incandescent on February 25, 2025, 12:23:38 pm
Your video shows the sign is now correctly positioned facing on-coming traffic, so argument on signage not so strong.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Mjet on February 25, 2025, 11:24:36 am
Hi @cp8759,
Thank you, I've taken some more pics and attempted a Video. Please view via the links below. I hope these provide what we're seeking.


(https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU)
https://imgur.com/a/rjMr0f1

https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU[/img]](https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU) (http://[img)

(https://imgur.com/a/rjMr0f1)
https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU

https://imgur.com/a/rjMr0f1[/img]](https://imgur.com/a/rjMr0f1) (http://[img)


I noticed there is another sign further up the road before the bus stop. However when there are buses stopped the drivers focus would be directed away from the signage. Unfortunetley I don't recall whether there were busses stopped on the day of the incident.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on February 24, 2025, 05:46:01 pm
@Mjet this is the key sign:

(https://i.imgur.com/6MduOLq.jpeg)

Obviously the council accepts there is a need for an advance warning sign, would you be able to get some picture of it taken from further back?

Ideally we need a picture taken from a driver's perspective but obviously it might be hazardous for you to stand in the middle of the road. If that cannot be done safely, you might need to either drive past with a dashcam or with a passenger filming on a mobile phone. The sign would be far less visible from a driver's perspective than it would be from the pavement, and it's worth getting the best possible evidence.

It might also be helpful to get some photos taken from behind the sign as well as standing to its side, to show the angle by which it is turned towards the building line.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Incandescent on February 24, 2025, 04:57:19 pm
Talk about sign clutter !
So, there is an advance warning sign, and in a good format, but actually turned away from view by a motorist approaching for a left turn in to the restructed street.

Councils have a duty under LATOR Regulation 18 (1), not just to erect signage that adequately conveys a restriction, but to also maintain it duting the life of that restriction: -

Quote
Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and

(c)in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Mjet on February 24, 2025, 03:25:08 pm
Hi @cp8759,
Thank you, I have just popped down and taken some pictures.

The sign on the main road prior to the turn is facing away from the driver, obscuring visibility(to the left side with cars passing on the right). The pole is fixed into the ground.

https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU (https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU)

(https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU)

Please let me know If you need any more pictures.

Many thanks
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on February 23, 2025, 07:25:55 pm
@Mjet right so it appears you were turning left:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iBNQ2V-5Ok

The location is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/EDykHtWM87TpeSdZ8 but the GSV capture is several years out of date, so you will need to go back and get photos of any advance warning signs on the main road.

You have very little time, the deadline to challenge the penalty is midnight on Tuesday. I will also get hold of the traffic order.
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: Mjet on February 23, 2025, 10:10:31 am
(https://imgur.com/a/mjet-pcn-brent-Lrl2yXU)

The guidance doesnt seem to match the options I see. I hope this works better, I used Imgur. Please let me know if it doesn't show.

Many thanks

Hi @cp8759, are you able to see the PCN?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayn
Post by: cp8759 on February 22, 2025, 06:05:58 pm
@Mjet as per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), please re-post the PCN without redacting anything apart from your name and address.
Title: Brent 53J Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone,Okehampton Rd NW10 Chamberlayne Rd
Post by: Mjet on February 21, 2025, 04:54:06 pm
Hi @cp8759,

I hope you can help.

I received the following PCN from Brent and would appreciate your help. After revisiting the road, I noticed that the restrictions apply during school hours. I was actually dropping off a sick note for my son at his school, which is further away. I hadn’t noticed the signs before.

Also, my 3-year-old niece kindly decided to rip up the notice while it was on my desk—apologies for the state of it! I’ve done my best to tape it back together.

Is there a way to challenge this PCN? or am I better off just paying the fine and taking the hit (which is now higher as I missed the initial 14 day discount :'( )

Many Thank you for your time and assistance.


[attachment deleted by admin]