Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: zemanzdenek on September 12, 2023, 12:18:57 am
-
Ok, do I contact Days directly myself as all correspondence goes through our transport department to Days as they hire the vehicles?
We can't be wasting time pussyfooting around the issues, we know what needs doing and frankly I doubt anyone at Days or in Transport services has a clue.
You an an officer of Cardiff County Council, Days are your supplier, so contact them directly and instruct them to challenge *all* the PCNs on the hire company ground. Until liability is transferred, you're in danger of losing the right to appeal, so you want this to happen as soon as possible.
-
You must do as you have been advised. YES you contact Days and get them to make representations to the council that they are a hire company the council are the hirer and new PCN's will be raised in there name then get authority from whomsoever in the council you need to to challenge the PCN's only whey they are in the name of the council and you have that permission can we help you
We cannot do it for you the council should not nor would not deal with anyone of us at this stage
If you continue to procrastinate the process will move along at its own pace and the costs will continue to increase
-
Hi guys, this topic has gone dead but I still need the help. I today have received a fourth PCN. And over the past few days since my last message a number of messages have come through about the cameras but what is different between the original message informing us of the permit camera is the amount of information. I and a number of my workmates have been given further details about not passing a "Except for Access" zone which you cannot pass when originally we were of the understanding that you can't pass through the camera(?).
Anyway I need clarification on what I need to do.
1) I do not just accept liability and pay the fine? The PCN's are not in my name.
2) contact transport who will contact Days and have them do their own representations etc and forward it to the council then back to me with my name and address etc?
Thank you
-
What is the recommended plan of action with this?
Transport services are on strike currently and that who I would have to go through them as I have no contact with Days or the hiring of vehicles, I'm assigned a van and keep it overnight.
Thank you
-
Ok, do I contact Days directly myself as all correspondence goes through our transport department to Days as they hire the vehicles?
-
All the PCNs are sitting at £35 at the moment, which is frankly a bit odd.
I suggest you contact Days and ask them if they've appealed the PCNs on the hire company ground. If they have, ask if they've received a Notice of Acceptance or some other correspondence confirming liability has been transferred.
If Days have not taken any action yet, instruct them to challenge all three PCNs on the hire company ground, requesting that liability be transferred to the leasee.
Please report back urgently, whatever the situation is there will be follow-up actions for you.
-
Well if the lessee of the vehicle is the Council, as one body corporate, it cannot be both Appellant and Respondent and seek to pursue itself for these Penalty Charge Notices.
That won't stop them from trying, Islington even pursued a costs order against itself:
London Borough of Islington v London Borough of Islington (2070232277, 13 September 2007) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1tCEsTZWLul0IDx8qYPN5AbHSveuMfAoI)
London Borough of Redbridge v London Borough of Redbridge (2180449206, 03 October 2018) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1hEDqTqz4yaxppHtoQCCMB-p7Ctp-4vKJ)
London Borough of Redbridge v London Borough of Redbridge (2200498773, 14 January 2021) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1WDblyirQphVknnLP5GBSVEWxpVWrGwDZ)
London Borough of Southwark v London Borough of Southwark (2200544462, 05 March 2021) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=10uNhViRLq4YCirHyP1HSlv-pH4OF9puD)
-
Hi Mike,
In regards to your questions:
1) The PCN came via email to me. The first PCN was originally sent to Days as they are the owner of the vehicle who forwarded it to transport services who then forwarded it to my department manager who passed the email to me.
2) I do not believe it does but I've been waiting to hear back from my union to confirm.
3) I'm given this particular vehicle.
4) I keep the vehicle after shifts/overnight
5) yes I am waiting still to here back from them.
Thank you for your help. I know my direct manager is really unhappy with this as stated in the screenshot post above and just wants it paid rather than allow me to at least appeal the PCN.
-
OP -- We need more detail and probably more input from members before you take any further action. I am not too sure of the suggestion from PMB that you take it on yourself to action the PCNs.
Some questions for clarity:-
How are you in possession of the PCNs?
Does your contract of employment specify that you, as a driver of a Council leased vehicle, are responsible for paying traffic and parking fines?
Are you given a particular vehicle or one from a number?
Do you keep the vehicle at home outside shifts?
Are you in a trade union?
It seems the process is the wrong way round--the lease company passes the PCNs to your manager to sort out----rather than----the lease company formally declares themselves to be a leasing company and then provides the enforcement authority (the Council) with details of the hirer/lessee (the Council).
With the last scenario we have a closed loop---the Council cannot enforce against itself so you are in the clear.
In the first scenario I am trying to work out the vehicle's "keeper" and if you have any responsibility whatsoever for payment.
With regard to PMB's suggestion perhaps if you do nothing the next demand to the leasing company will draw out the name of the hirer/lessee but,as I said, wait for other views.
Mike
-
I'm pretty slow as you can see can you give me a brief step by step how I proceed with that action?
Contact my manager and transport officer with the above information?
-
Only the recipient of the PCN may make representations and is responsible for payment if non are made the hire company pass liability to the council by way of representation that they are a hire co the council then receive a PCN in their name.They can pass it on to you with their authority to challenge on their behalf but it is still in their name
What you have to get too before it,s to late is that authority to make representation in the councils name
If they do not give it they have denied your right to justice via a hearing which could cause problems for them
-
Thank you for the replies.
@MMV Redux in regards to the Appellant and Respondent do I need to have these PCN's in my own name. Also does the delay on the experimental order help me in anyway?
@Pastmybest I have informed him I would be appealing when the first two came through and he just said it was worth a try. So I need to contact my manager again and inform him that I am appealing, I can cc the transport officer into the email who received the PCN from Days and have them contact about representations and have the council reissue the PCN in my name?
I'm unaware of my contract stating we have to pay fines but I will look into today waiting for a call back regarding that issue but here the department receive the PCN's etc and they are paid by whoever is driving the vehicle.
Reading through the last two PCN's the they have been issued directly to Cardiff Council instead of Day's then passed to my department then onto me, do I request Representations from Cardiff Council to then have it put in my name?
The last two PCN's are for the exact same time and date which I am confused by, how has this happened?
Thank you all, sorry for the diatribe!
-
Act quickly inform you manager that you intend to appeal and that Days need to make representations on the grounds that they are a hire company the PCN,s will then be reissued in the name of the council and they can authorise you to act in the matter of these PCN's
Unless you are contractually obliged to pay parking fines they cannot force you too
-
Well if the lessee of the vehicle is the Council, as one body corporate, it cannot be both Appellant and Respondent and seek to pursue itself for these Penalty Charge Notices.
Also the Experimental Order has been delayed beyond belief if enforcement started in June 2023:-
https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/resident/Parking-roads-and-travel/Traffic-orders/Proposals/Traffic%20Scheme%20Proposals/Crystal%20Glen.pdf
Mike
-
I also received this alert from my manager after already speaking to him when I received the first one when I informed him that I wouldn't be paying the fine and would be appealing. The alert is for the whole unit not just me.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Third PCN.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
These are the first two PCNs I will post the third in a separate message.
The second and third PCN's are for the exact same date and time which I don't understand how I've received two for that period.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
The PCN says "as you were the owner/hirer/keeper of vehicle"?
I haven't had anything in my name as yet just these three PCN's does that help me in anyway?
-
All Days have done is forward the PCN to Cardiff Council.
How do I go about informing them of that, please?
Thank you
-
So Cardiff County Council leases the vehicles from Days?
If so, Days needs to make a representation on the basis that they're a hire company and the vehicles are on lease to Cardiff County Council.
-
The vehicle is a hired van from Days.
So the PCN was sent to Days who sent it to Transport who then sent it t my department and my manager forwarded it to me.
I am an employee of Cardiff County Council. I received all these from the 22nd August but I could not access my emails until the 30th August.
-
Have any of these PCNs been challenged by the registered keeper? The deadline to challenge the first one was on September 5, the second one is almost out of time.
Also, what's your connection to the registered keeper please?
-
Hello this is a bit of a tricky one, I have received 3 regulation 10 PCN's (so far) for failing to comply with a certain prohibition on certain type of vehicles.
Cardiff Council are trialing a "permit gate" on a stretch of road - Crystal Glen - to prohibit it being used as a shortcut, the issue for me is I am an employee of Cardiff Council and have been using the road to access two separate work points - Fishguard Close and Trenchard Drive - for the last 11 years the scheme came in from the 19th June 2023 and the memo sent out by Cardiff Council read that "if you do not have a permit, you can access the area but need to exit it the same way you entered it" which I have been doing accessing Crystal Glen via Fishguard Road then leaving Crystal Glen onto Fishguard Road. (I have attached the memo which was sent to me as an alert through my work app.) I was understanding that I was following the rules of the scheme - exiting the same way I entered - the camera is situated just before Fishguard Close and two of the PCN's have been from me driving from Fishguard Close.
*I received a third PCN today but it's for the exact same date and time as the second one which I am confused by.
Anyway I am looking for advice in how to proceed, I have used Dropbox to link all the PCN's with the dated folders, the memo from my office manager
PCN number QC85781974:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/noqhugc9yty3w08/AAAUOEc-4AHPTSUNAdIUgd-Ha?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/noqhugc9yty3w08/AAAUOEc-4AHPTSUNAdIUgd-Ha?dl=0)
PCN number QC85764545:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bzfhrx3zt4sqyx0/AAA_ZkajSo1HQtsKjf_i22v7a?dl=0
Pcn number - QC85764534 21.07.23
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jy24irdjcjcut1n/AAAd8oi2KvMEux81Sg2O_fQba?dl=0
This was the memo sent out by Cardiff Council detailing the new scheme page 1:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5pv6etcufz4ljpdu4rmb8/Screenshot_2023-09-11-22-09-38-97_e307a3f9df9f380ebaf106e1dc980bb6.jpg?rlkey=id6tnkn5a2mive1s425klozf4&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5pv6etcufz4ljpdu4rmb8/Screenshot_2023-09-11-22-09-38-97_e307a3f9df9f380ebaf106e1dc980bb6.jpg?rlkey=id6tnkn5a2mive1s425klozf4&dl=0)
Page 2
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nlj6ihjcqjc4izxr6cmst/Screenshot_2023-09-11-22-09-45-24_e307a3f9df9f380ebaf106e1dc980bb6.jpg?rlkey=qon0pdts3w2hd47por1bqkuvq&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nlj6ihjcqjc4izxr6cmst/Screenshot_2023-09-11-22-09-45-24_e307a3f9df9f380ebaf106e1dc980bb6.jpg?rlkey=qon0pdts3w2hd47por1bqkuvq&dl=0)
Google maps:
Crystal Glen
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bFKUJjBzAKMDoKTG8
Where the lamppost is is where the camera is now situated.
Crystal Glen
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ULr6PGSx5wWRxRUB7
This is the view from the turning from Fishguard Road, the left turn is Fishguard Close.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/q8HPqVswrQF9E3V39
This is a map view of the roads I have mentioned. The camera is next to the church on the corner before Fishguard Close.
Thank you for reading all this and clicking the links, I am working off of my phone so apologies for that in advance.