Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: johnsmith22 on June 19, 2023, 04:03:31 pm

Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on November 29, 2023, 01:00:06 am
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: H C Andersen on October 22, 2023, 09:38:02 pm
OP, have you posted a GSV of exactly where you were?

The council's response is b******s.

Can you park on the pavement where there are DYL. Of course you can. Any of the exemptions which applies on the carriageway to waiting on DYL applies on the footway. Parking on the footway and DYL are chalk and cheese.

So, under what circumstances are you permitted to park on the footway?

General considerations:
Where parking places are marked and properly signed*;
Where footway parking signs are displayed.

Specific:

See 15(3)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/section/15

*- the parking place signs for parking on the footway are NOT the same as for parking on the carriageway: see items 3&4 in Part 4 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made) and compare with item 2.

3&4 means that parking on the footway is permitted ONLY within the markings of the parking place and not outside because if the parking places sit within a wider permitted footway parking area then item 2 would suffice.

So, if a sign to item 2 is displayed on the footway what does it mean?

The council have signed it incorrectly or they have signed correctly and it sits within a wider permitted footway parking area.

But this has nothing in principle to do with DYL.

To elaborate, look at items 14&15 in Part 2 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

Note the permitted variant: In marked bays.

Contrast this with the plate displayed on CPZ signs and similar: In signed bays.

Within a permitted footway parking area bays may be marked. These are NOT parking places, they are bays marked to indicate where footway parking is permitted. It is not permitted outside.

So, IMO if you were parked within markings only and adjacent bays had parking place markings with signs but not to the prescribed format of sign then IMO this could only mean that although you might not have seen them, you were within a a permitted footway parking area.

Sorry if it sounds confusing!
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on October 22, 2023, 05:52:33 pm
Quote from: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
Thank you all for your replies. I would greatly appreciate that cp8759.

Two questions:
1) How would we proceed if you were to represent me at tribunal?
I'll drop you a PM.

Quote from: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
2) If they were to reject the appeal, what charges would I be looking at?
Just the penalty charge, there are no other costs.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: Incandescent on October 22, 2023, 12:22:28 am
Quote from: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
Thank you all for your replies. I would greatly appreciate that cp8759.

Two questions:
1) How would we proceed if you were to represent me at tribunal?

2) If they were to reject the appeal, what charges would I be looking at?

Many thanks,
The full PCN penalty, but no more.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on October 21, 2023, 09:09:52 pm
Thank you all for your replies. I would greatly appreciate that cp8759.

Two questions:
1) How would we proceed if you were to represent me at tribunal?

2) If they were to reject the appeal, what charges would I be looking at?

Many thanks,
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 05:53:52 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on October 20, 2023, 10:22:24 pm
For me this is a difficult one. It is obvious that there once was a bay there, but the council decided to put in a short length of double-yellow lines and to paint out the bay markings with black over-paint which has partly worn off.
This is the key point, the bay has partially reappeared so it's ambiguous. In Trudie Tinsley v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2210064678, 13 March 2021) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1AqJ7x3flIn5blwk_6Sw2czMd_k4U4P0X) adjudicator Belinda Pearce said:

The contemporaneous photographic capture was examined to evaluate the allegation in conjunction with the Appellant's representations.

The said vehicle is positioned within identifiable bay markings; one edge of the broken white bay demarcation being indented on the pavement clearly inducing motorists to position vehicles within such delineations and thereby parking with 2 wheels off the carriageway.

I find that the that the presence of the bay lines in the vicinity encourage such manner of parking and invite motorists to park off carriageway.

It is of concern that the Enforcement Authority state that the bay markings have 'been partially removed.'

Partial removal is unacceptable if the Enforcement Authority's intent is to remove the ability of motorists to so park.

Evidentially I do not find that the contravention occurred, accordingly I allow this Appeal.

I can't guarantee the outcome, but if you want to carry on I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: Incandescent on October 21, 2023, 12:00:04 am
Mea Culpa !
Looking at my own post, it's a load of complete boll+ks, because the PCN is not for the double-yellow lines, but for parking off-carriageway. However, these tend to be harder to refute than PCNs for DYLs !  Looking at the sign, there is below the pay-to-park arrangements, a sign allowing off-carriageway parking in marked bays only.  I still hold to my view that there is no clear bay where the OP parked, with its adjacent double-yellow lines, however.........

I thought a look on GSV might turn up something and it did.
Here is GSV March 2017.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LygfkRNdBqGELtfy5
Note that there is nothing about off-carriageway parking, so the parking bays are part of the carriageway.
But in May 2018, by some council sleight-of-hand, the bays are apparently now off-carriagway, yet the street remains unchanged.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ujwucw7Z9VbE2tKR8
How can the parking bay now be off-carriageway, yet a year before it was carriageway ?

So maybe worth a punt at London Tribunals !
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: roythebus on October 20, 2023, 11:29:58 pm
Is it worth looking at the TRO to see if that has been amended to include the short bit of DYL?
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: Incandescent on October 20, 2023, 10:22:24 pm
For me this is a difficult one. It is obvious that there once was a bay there, but the council decided to put in a short length of double-yellow lines and to paint out the bay markings with black over-paint which has partly worn off. All double-yellow lines apply to a road, so apply to footways and verges up to the property line; in your case, the wall.

Here is the location shown on GSV July 2022.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/f3qd4Dw6vhUewGFb8
It is clear the double-yellows are placed there to allow free exit from the building. Personally, I'd be reluctant to take this to London Tribunals as the double-yellow lines are clear.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on October 20, 2023, 09:31:33 pm
Dear cp8759

Yesterday I had this reply from Tower Hamlets. Marked in the same google drive link as 'Response 19/10/23'

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yrN5RC_JykqmWl8R4kT0knLNssnOiWjv/view?usp=share_link

In your opinion, is this worth appealing further?

Many thanks,

Ben
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on September 22, 2023, 11:00:44 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on September 21, 2023, 11:35:02 pm
Would that be the exact same one as you posted further up this thread? ...

"Dear London Borough of Tower Hamlets,

I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. My car was parked within a marked footway parking bay, as confirmed by the CEO's photos. I can only assume the CEO issued the PCN in error.

Yours faithfully,"


Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 09:41:30 pm
Honestly I would just make the same representation again.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on September 21, 2023, 09:11:14 pm
Oh yes thank you. Apologies, NTO is now in this google drive Link..

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17d1Eh9YW9vTqN-bjErlGJTNtllJbcgqh?usp=sharing

Thank you again for your help..
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 08:51:50 pm
You might want to redact your postal address from documents before posting them on here.

Anyway you've not attached the notice to owner, you've attached another copy of the informal notice of rejection from 24 July.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on September 21, 2023, 08:48:57 pm
Hi Incandescent,

The Notice To Owner is attached below..

Many thanks for your help.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 08:12:36 pm
The document you have received is likely to be the Notice to Owner. Please post it up here or if it's something else, post that up. At NtO stage, the discount option has gone, so it's a no-brainer to submit reps again. When they reject, they may re-offer the discount, but are under no legal duty to do so.
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on September 21, 2023, 06:23:16 pm
Hi, my appeal was rejected in July. And I had not seen the email.

I recently received a letter in the post asking for the £130.

Are you still able to make a rep for me?

I've added their response to this post as a PDF. Also In this drive link below if need be.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17d1Eh9YW9vTqN-bjErlGJTNtllJbcgqh?usp=sharing

Really appreciate your help!
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on June 21, 2023, 12:45:49 am
John U.K. try the link I re-posted, I've just tried it in incognito mode and it works fine.

As for the PCN, this case is relevant: Trudie Tinsley v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2210064678, 13 March 2021) (http://bit.ly/3ctNJiC)

Draft reps (for the informal stage something very brief will do):

Dear London Borough of Tower Hamlets,

I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. My car was parked within a marked footway parking bay, as confirmed by the CEO's photos. I can only assume the CEO issued the PCN in error.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: John U.K. on June 19, 2023, 04:45:58 pm
This is what I get (below) but usually Google drive links open without probs.





[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2023, 04:28:10 pm
Here's the link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17d1Eh9YW9vTqN-bjErlGJTNtllJbcgqh?usp=sharing
Title: Re: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: John U.K. on June 19, 2023, 04:15:41 pm
All photo evidence is found via this google drive link:
 https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17d1...gqh?usp=sharing

Cannot access your folder without signing in :(
Title: PCN for parking with one or more wheels over a footpath, Help needed, Help Needed
Post by: johnsmith22 on June 19, 2023, 04:03:31 pm
*Repost from Fightback Forum*

Dear all,

I received this parking ticket on Thursday of last week. I had a gig at a venue on Brick Lane, and had managed to find a parking spot directly outside. I paid £5 for an hour of parking from 6pm - 7pm. after which the restrictions ended.

I left the gig at midnight. The last thing I expected was to have a PCN as I checked and double checked the timings. I drove off from the spot and a couple minutes later I discover the PCN tucked in the front window.



The offence is described: 'Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway'.



Please could you have a look at their evidence and let me know if I have grounds to challenge? I see faint lines marking the parking bay on one side, but no lines on the other side. The brick changes as the space becomes the footpath. I assumed as long as I was on the darker bricks, I would be ok.

All photo evidence is found via this google drive link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17d1...gqh?usp=sharing

I understand I have left this later then desirable to appeal, but any help at this stage is much appreciated.


Thank you,

John