Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 12:58:45 pm

Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on March 01, 2025, 06:02:01 pm
Have they actually written to the OP?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: b789 on March 01, 2025, 05:37:01 pm
What a waste of everyone's time. I would suggest you turn their own tactic against them and put them on the defensive. A formal letter demanding an apology (with the explicit threat of an SRA complaint if they fail to respond) forces them to either:

• Backtrack and apologise (which is a win), or
• Ignore it, which justifies escalating to the SRA

Send them the following letter by simply copying it and pasting it into their webform with your personal contact details for their Filey office here:

https://www.thorpeandco.com/index.php/contact-us/

You only need to copy and paste the letter as is and add the date, below.

Quote
Formal Complaint Regarding Misleading and Intimidatory Conduct – Ref: JMA/KLW/023331-0118

[Date]

Dear Sirs,

I write in response to your correspondence regarding an alleged parking contravention at your premises.

Your letter misleadingly claimed that I was liable for a £200 charge, threatened legal action, and sought to intimidate me into compliance. However, when contacted directly, your firm admitted that no such legal action was ever intended and that your only objective was to obtain an apology and a promise not to park there again.

Your actions constitute an abuse of your legal position and a clear attempt to intimidate an individual with knowingly baseless legal threats. As a regulated firm, you are bound by the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) Code of Conduct, which prohibits:

- Making misleading or unjustified threats of legal action (Rule 8.9)
- Failing to act with integrity (Principle 2)
- Engaging in conduct likely to diminish public trust in the profession (Principle 4)

The fact that you never intended to pursue a claim but knowingly sent a misleading letter designed to cause distress raises serious ethical concerns.

I now require a written apology from Thorpe & Co within 7 days of the date of this message. If no apology is forthcoming, I will have no hesitation in submitting a formal complaint to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) regarding your conduct.

I trust this matter can be resolved without further escalation.

Yours faithfully.

[your name]
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on March 01, 2025, 04:33:53 pm
Thanks for all the advice.
They were contacted to see if a new pin/invoice had been sent out to the driver and they stated they were not intending to press the fine, just wanted an apology and a promise to not park there again.

So just general bullying and intention to cause stress with no intenti9n of follow-through!


Thanks for all the advice and support.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: b789 on February 19, 2025, 02:50:33 pm
The advice has not changed.

Some questions are asked in my previous posts... can you please answer them.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 19, 2025, 02:42:13 pm
Pictures of the location.
First looking back at the car park
Second close-up of camera and sign.
Third view of car park when you arrive on one way back street

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Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: b789 on February 19, 2025, 11:38:10 am
For now, unless we can confirm that the you have been formally named as a party by Thorpe & Co, they have no legal standing to act. All we know so far is:

Quote
'They' (presumably their fleet/line manager) have passed their details to 'them' (assuming Thorpe & Co) and their address as they have accepted responsibility for this. "I accept I parked there for a matter of 5 to 6 mins whilst performing my duties."

The PCN (invoice) would still need to be reissued in your name. The next steps (before you receive anything) is to confirm whether Thorpe & Co has actually processed your details.

You should check with your fleet/line manager whether Thorpe & Co has acknowledged receipt of your details. Just because the fleet manager says they passed it on doesn’t mean Thorpe & Co has actually updated their records yet.

Do nothing until there’s direct contact from Thorpe & Co in your name. There is no point in acting yet if Thorpe & Co hasn’t reached out. If they don’t send anything, you don't need to chase it.

Since you are already collecting evidence of signage, you should continue without alerting Thorpe & Co.

Keep the Union in the Loop (if applicable). If you are a union member, you should inform them now before any official demand arrives. If the union gets involved early, they might help push it back onto the Council.

That’s it for now—no need to act until Thorpe & Co actually contacts you directly.

Feel free to direct your fleet/line managers to this thread or use the information in it to point out their failures in getting this PCN cancelled in the first place because it was not enforceable in the first place.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 19, 2025, 09:41:50 am
The letter from the solicitors says they acquired the details from DVLA. I think we should proceed on the basis that is true.

If they subsequently state they did not get the details from the DVLA, then them lying in writing to their local council in a bid to elicit money is unlikely to be viewed favourably.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Foxy01 on February 19, 2025, 09:12:45 am
Is the vehicle stickered up with council logos/details? If so it may be that nobody contacted DVLA for keeper details. Is the address on the letter the same as the one on the vehicle logbook?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 11:07:20 pm
Location of the camera isn't of much relevance - overall layout of the signage, any photos at the entrance(s) to the site. Images of whereabouts the vehicle was and its relation to nearby signage. The purpose is to show if the signage was suitably prominent (its contents can already be challenged, but no harm in getting as many reasons to poke holes in their case as you can).
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 10:34:52 pm

In the meantime, have you got any photos showing the layout of the signage at the site, how prominent it is etc.?

I can collect images tomorrow.
Pictures of camera, sign and general shots of the parking area?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: b789 on February 18, 2025, 08:33:39 pm
I can't see the wood for the trees sometimes!  :-\

You're absolutely right—since the vehicle is owned by the Council, its registration details would not be considered "personal data" under UK GDPR, because they relate to a legal entity rather than an individual. However, if Thorpe & Co obtained the keeper data under false pretences, this could still be an issue under data protection laws and potentially a breach of the DVLA’s KADOE (Keeper of a Vehicle at the Date of an Event) contract.

How the Data Protection Issues Apply Here

1. If Thorpe & Co requested data from the DVLA:

• They are not ATA members, so they have no lawful basis to request keeper data for private parking enforcement.
• If they falsely represented their reason for obtaining the data (e.g., claiming it was for legal action when it was actually for a parking charge), this could breach DVLA policies and the Data Protection Act 2018.

2.  If Thorpe & Co obtained the council’s details from another source:

• If they used council records improperly or pressured an internal contact to disclose information, this could violate internal data handling policies rather than GDPR.
• However, if they later process any named driver’s personal data improperly, GDPR would apply at that point.

Key Takeaways

• The Council should still formally challenge how Thorpe & Co obtained the data.
• If the DVLA provided the data, the Council should file a complaint with the DVLA and ICO.
• If the Council voluntarily disclosed data, the issue becomes more about internal procedures rather than data protection law.

This is still worth pursuing, but you’re right that the personal data aspect doesn't apply in the same way to a fleet vehicle. If it escalates to a claim against an the driver, GDPR could then come into play regarding their personal details.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 08:22:38 pm
Just a quick point on the above - some of the data protection arguments might work differently with respect to the Council's data, as that wouldn't fall under the scope of personal data for the purposes of GDPR. Although if they've accessed it under false pretences this is an issue.

Whether it was reasonable to pass on your data to the company is another matter (unless potentially they did so on the basis of your consent).

The rest is all sound.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: b789 on February 18, 2025, 08:10:05 pm
The fleet and line managers are incompetent feckwits! Here is the situation before we even consider the fact that this is a council vehicle and you were on a job at the time.

There are several significant legal and procedural issues. Here are the key points regarding the lawfulness and enforceability of the "parking charge" issued by Thorpe & Co Solicitors:

1. No Accredited Trade Association (ATA) Membership

• Thorpe & Co is not a member of any Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) under the British Parking Association (BPA) or International Parking Community (IPC).
• This means they cannot obtain keeper details from the DVLA for parking enforcement purposes. If they did obtain data from the DVLA for this purpose, they likely misrepresented the reason for their request, which could amount to a Data Protection Act 2018 (DPA) and UK GDPR breach.
• As a solicitor's firm, they might have obtained DVLA data through an alternative means (e.g., a legitimate legal enquiry or other indirect source), but this does not authorise them to pursue a parking charge in the same way as an ATA-approved private parking operator.

2. Unlawful Threats of Legal Costs

• The letter states: "if proceedings are issued, we will be looking to you for the Court fees and our legal costs."
• This is misleading. In the Small Claims Track (under CPR 27.14), legal costs are not normally recoverable except in exceptional circumstances (e.g., unreasonable behaviour). The threat of legal costs appears designed to intimidate rather than reflect actual litigation risks.

3. Questionable Contract Formation

• The sign at the location attempts to create a contractual agreement whereby a person who parks agrees to pay £200 per day or part thereof.
• However, for a contract to be enforceable:

• The terms must be clearly displayed and prominent at the time of parking.
• The £200 charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss or commercially justifiable. Given the Supreme Court decision in ParkingEye v Beavis [2015], a charge may be enforceable if it serves a legitimate interest and is not penal in nature.
• The language on the sign suggests trespass rather than a contractual agreement. If they are alleging trespass, only the landowner (or someone with proprietary interest) can sue for actual damages suffered. £200 per day appears arbitrary and punitive rather than a reasonable estimate of loss.

4. Trespass Claim Requires Loss

• If Thorpe & Co is arguing trespass rather than a contractual breach:

• A trespass claim must be pursued by the landowner, and damages must reflect actual loss suffered (which would typically be minimal unless there was genuine obstruction or disruption).
• Damages for trespass would likely be nominal (£1-£20), not a fixed penalty-style charge of £200 per day.

5. Misrepresentation and Breach of the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) Code of Conduct

• SRA Code of Conduct: As solicitors, they must not engage in misleading or abusive conduct in their communications. The language in their letter appears designed to intimidate rather than accurately reflect the law.
• Possible Misrepresentation of Authority: They suggest that they have the right to enforce a penalty-style charge, but private firms cannot issue fines or penalties, only enforceable contractual charges.

6. Possible Breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR)

• The letter could constitute an unfair commercial practice by:

• Misleading the recipient about legal consequences.
• Failing to provide clear and honest information about their rights.
• Imposing a penalty rather than a genuine contractual charge.

7. £200 Charge Likely Unenforceable

• The amount does not align with other parking charges typically deemed enforceable in court (e.g., £50–£100 with a discount for early payment).
• In Beavis, the Supreme Court upheld an £85 charge, but only because it was part of a properly managed, ATA-approved, and clearly signposted scheme. Here, Thorpe & Co:

• Are not part of an ATA.
• Have no independent appeals process.
• Cannot rely on PoFA 2012 to hold the keeper liable.

8. Potential for Formal Complaints

• Complaint to the SRA: The firm could be reported for using their position as solicitors to make misleading legal threats.
• Complaint to the ICO: If they obtained keeper details from the DVLA without lawful reason, this may be a data protection breach.
• Complaint to Trading Standards: If the demand constitutes an unfair trading practice.

This charge is legally dubious on multiple fronts.

Now, let's consider that the vehicle is a council-owned fleet vehicle and that the PCN is addressed to the council as the registered keeper—the situation raises further serious legal and procedural concerns.

1. Wrongly Addressed "PCN" – Keeper Liability Cannot Apply

• The PCN was issued to the Council (fleet owner), not the driver.
• Thorpe & Co has no authority under PoFA 2012 to hold the keeper (Council) liable.
• The Council has no legal obligation to name the driver or pay the charge.
• Any claim must be against the actual driver, which they have no legal means of obtaining unless the Council voluntarily discloses it.

2. Late Issuance – Unreasonable Delay

• The alleged incident occurred in September 2024.
• The "PCN" was only received by the council's fleet manager on 30th January 2025 (over four months later).
• If this were a legitimate PCN under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), it would be invalid due to excessive delay. Even in a contractual claim, such a long delay weakens their case as it could be considered an abuse of process.

3.No Contractual Agreement or Consent

• The driver states they did not see the sign.
• To form a contract, there must be clear and prominent signage, and the driver must have had an opportunity to accept or reject the terms.
• The fact that the driver was only there for 6 minutes further undermines the claim, as they may not have had sufficient time to locate and read any signage.
• The £200 charge appears penal and disproportionate for such a short stay.

4. Potentially Unlawful Access to DVLA Data

• Since Thorpe & Co is not a member of an ATA (e.g., BPA or IPC), they are not authorised to request keeper data from the DVLA for parking enforcement.
• If they obtained the council’s keeper details without lawful reason, this could amount to a breach of data protection laws (UK GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018).
• The Council should formally challenge how Thorpe & Co obtained the registered keeper's details.

5. Council Vehicles on Official Business – Statutory Defence

• The vehicle was on official council business, dealing with an incident where no public parking was available.
• Public authorities have statutory rights to use the highway and access areas when performing essential duties.
• If the council has a parking exemption policy for its fleet vehicles, they may refuse to pay on this basis.

6. Trespass Argument Still Fails

• If Thorpe & Co is claiming trespass, they can only claim actual losses (which would be minimal).
• A £200 charge is punitive and would not hold up in court.
• Given the short duration (6 minutes) and the fact that the car park was not full, there is no measurable loss.

7. Misrepresentation and Potential Professional Misconduct

• As solicitors, Thorpe & Co are held to strict ethical standards under the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) Code of Conduct.
• The threats of legal costs in Small Claims Court are misleading, which could be reported to the SRA.

This what should have happened if you weren't managed by feckwits:

1. The Council’s Response to Thorpe & Co

The Council (as the keeper) should respond, not the driver. The response should:

•Refuse to name the driver, as there is no legal obligation to do so.
•Challenge how Thorpe & Co obtained the keeper's details and demand proof that they accessed DVLA records lawfully.
•Reject any liability, stating:

• The "PCN" is a non-compliant and unenforceable private demand.
• The charge is punitive and disproportionate.
• The vehicle was on official council business dealing with an incident.
• The driver was only present for 6 minutes, meaning there was no opportunity to read and accept any contract.
• No actual loss was suffered by Thorpe & Co.
• Warn them that a complaint will be made to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) if they continue with misleading demands.

2. Council Complaint to the DVLA

• The Council should formally complain to the DVLA that Thorpe & Co may have unlawfully obtained their data for parking enforcement purposes without being an ATA member.
• If Thorpe & Co misrepresented their request to the DVLA, this could be a serious data protection breach.

3. Complaint to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA)

• The SRA regulates solicitors and has strict rules about misleading or unethical behaviour.
• The threats of legal costs, the misleading use of trespass claims, and the questionable data access should be reported.
• If the SRA investigates and finds wrongdoing, Thorpe & Co could face disciplinary action.

4. Complaint to the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO)

• If the DVLA confirms that Thorpe & Co obtained the keeper’s details without proper authority, the Council should report a data protection breach to the ICO.

5. If Threatened with Court Action

• If Thorpe & Co persists in demanding payment, the Council should formally deny any debt and refuse to engage further.
• If court action is threatened, the Council should demand that Thorpe & Co provides strict proof of how a contract was formed.
• Given the short duration of parking, unclear signage, and lack of contract formation, a court would likely dismiss the claim.

The PCN is unenforceable. Thorpe & Co cannot hold the keeper liable, and their claim of a £200 charge for 6 minutes is excessive and punitive. The Council should reject the charge outright and demand proof of how their data was obtained. Thorpe & Co's conduct raises serious concerns about data protection, misleading legal threats, and professional misconduct, which should be escalated to the SRA, DVLA, and ICO.

However, given that you have now been left to deal with this, there are a few potential ways forward. Let’s break it down into what you can do now, how to push it back onto the council, and what to do if you must respond directly.

1. Try to Get the Council to Take Responsibility Again

a) Are you a Trade Union Member?

• If you are a member of a union (e.g., Unison, GMB, Unite), you should immediately contact your local rep and explain the situation.
• The union can argue that:

• This is a work-related matter and the driver should not personally be dealing with it.
• The council (as the vehicle keeper) received the notice and should handle it.
• The fleet manager is failing in their duty by offloading it onto an employee.

• Possible outcome: The union pressures the council to take back responsibility and handle the dispute on behalf of the driver.

b) If No Trade Union Membership

• You can still formally write to the fleet manager and your own line manager (with HR copied in, if possible), stating:

• The PCN is addressed to the Council, not you personally.
• You are not the vehicle owner, and council policy should determine how to handle fleet vehicle disputes.
• It is not your responsibility to deal with legal matters involving a council-owned vehicle.
• If the council wants to name you as the driver, they must do so formally and in writing.

• This creates a paper trail showing that the fleet manager’s decision was unreasonable.

2. If You Have to Handle it Personally

If you are forced to deal with it, you should:

a) Ignore it Until You Are Personally Contacted

• Right now, Thorpe & Co has only sent the notice to the council.
• Unless you personally receive a demand in your name, you have no legal obligation to respond.

b) Do Not Identify Yourself to Thorpe & Co

• If you contact Thorpe & Co, you must not confirm you were driving.
• Thorpe & Co has no legal way to force you to confirm that you were the driver.
• If the council has already handed over your details, Thorpe & Co may write to you directly—but even then, you can still challenge it.

c) Challenge the Demand on Multiple Grounds

If you receive a direct demand, you can write back, rejecting liability on the following bases:

1. No Contract was Formed

• The sign was small and not clearly visible.
• You were only there for 6 minutes, not enough time to read or accept any "contract".
• There was no opportunity to agree to any terms before leaving.

2. Charge is Punitive and Disproportionate

• A £200 charge for 6 minutes of parking is excessive and would likely be unenforceable in court.
• There is no evidence of any actual loss suffered by Thorpe & Co.

3. No Legal Authority to Issue PCNs

• Thorpe & Co is not an ATA-approved parking operator.
• They cannot access DVLA data for parking enforcement purposes, which raises serious data protection concerns.

4. The Vehicle was on Official Business

• The vehicle was a council fleet vehicle dealing with an incident.
• The driver parked legally to avoid obstructing a public road.
• If necessary, the driver can request a written statement from their manager confirming the reason for the stop.

3. What if Thorpe & Co Threatens Court Action?

•If they issue empty legal threats, you should not be intimidated.
•If they actually file a claim, you can robustly defend it, arguing:

• No contract was formed.
• The charge is excessive and punitive.
• The vehicle was in use for council business.
• Thorpe & Co has no legal authority to issue PCNs.

• Given the weakness of their case, it's unlikely they would pursue a claim, but if they did, the driver has a strong defence.

4. Final Recommendations

If you are a Union Member

1. Contact the union rep and push for the council to take back responsibility.
2. Escalate within the council if necessary.

If You Are Not in a Union

1. Formally refuse responsibility in writing to the fleet manager.
2. Refuse to engage with Thorpe & Co unless directly contacted.
3. If contacted, reject liability using the arguments above.

Let me know what you intend to do and I can provide some help with advice and draft letters etc.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 07:45:32 pm
They'll not be interested in most of that. We can help you draft something more robust.

In the meantime, have you got any photos showing the layout of the signage at the site, how prominent it is etc.?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 05:15:59 pm
They contacted the council fleet manager who then, via my boss confirmed it was me driving and have asked(and I’ve accepted) I was the driver therefore responsible. I was advised by a colleague to check on here for advice.
I think it’s going to be taken as a given that I will be responsible for the situation and sorting it out.

Should I contact them directly to solicitor’s company to address the situation around the fine/invoice?
Highlight the fact I parked for an exceedingly short period of time and as for a dismissal or at least reduction of the fee as I was acting in my council employee capacity but was wrong to park in their space?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 05:01:21 pm
There are a few angles on which this can potentially be challenged (the ridiculous amount of £200 for starters) but at present it seems the company haven't contacted you directly, is that the case?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 02:19:55 pm
I’m not sure.
Just that the fleet manager is aware I would be taking responsibility for this incident
I was in the vehicle and chose where it would be while it was in their property.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 02:17:07 pm
What exactly did the council say when passing on your details?

I'm not deliberately labouring the point but we need to know exactly what capacity you are being pursued in. At present all we've seen is a letter addressed to someone else (the council).
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 02:12:38 pm
They have passed my details to them and my address as I have accepted responsibility for this.
I accept I parked there for a matter of 5 to 6 mins whilst performing my duties.

I’m mainly enquiring if I should engage with them directly to appeal to their better nature and explain I was working and parked for the minimal amount of time.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 02:08:36 pm
I was in control of the car during the time period, I was working, and they have passed the responsibility to me to deal with it.
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 02:06:33 pm
Can you please confirm what you mean by the above?

Exactly what correspondence has been sent to the solicitors, and by whom?
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 01:58:32 pm
I have accepted responsibility for this incident.
I am now the liable party…
(Ps. Thanks for the rapid response)
Title: Re: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: DWMB2 on February 18, 2025, 01:42:42 pm
Quote
Is there anything I can do?
The letter you have showed us is addressed to the council (presumably your employer?). Do you have permission to act on their behalf?

At present if it is addressed to them it is for them to handle, which may present issues.
Title: Private parking charge Thorpe and Co solicitors, North Yorkshire
Post by: Gcdm on February 18, 2025, 12:58:45 pm
Whilst working in a branded works vehicle, council, I had to attend to an incident. There was no public parking available and not wanting to violate highways controlled traffic markings (double yellow lines/loading bans) I parked in a back street area  with five or six spaces. There was one other vehicle there and I was literally there for less than 6 minutes.
This happened in September 2024 and I have received, via the fleet manager, a notice on 30th January 2025 for a fine of £200.
The was a small sign I did not notice and I feel that prove is high for such a short duration visit.
Is there anything I can do?
Pictures of letter available if required…
Many thanks in advance.


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