Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: 8vaibhav on February 16, 2025, 10:10:00 pm
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Our normal advice is to pay ECNs at the lower level.
NSL have introduced an extra-procedural layer by referring to a NTO. As there's no provision for this in regulations we've no idea what it would demand, would it perhaps include a discount option? We simply don't know because it exists only in their world.
And they're not welcoming us to their world on request.
The choice is yours.
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Seems I would just need to pay £40 and move on, as I haven't received any response on email yet and the contact number isn't getting picked up...
14 days from the appeal rejection (26/2) are expiring tomorrow.
Any advice?
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Let's see how they respond.
Keep your eye on the clock.
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No-one's going to court at this stage.
But 'Therefore, my reading is that if NSL sends them an NTO, they will reply with my details (and inform me of the same with a copy of NTO they receive) and then I would likely be sent another NTO by NSL subsequently.' may or may not be correct in this case, we can't know because the legislation they state they're acting under makes no provision for NTOs so we've no way of knowing what one might state.
You might contact NSL and ask them ....
Perhaps..
ECN ******, you've unsuccessfully challenged this notice and been informed in writing (letter dated ****) that the next stage in the enforcement process would be for NSL to issue a Notice to Owner to the registered keeper. In this case, the vehicle is on long-term lease from **** who are the registered keeper. You would like to contact them to apprise them of the situation but are unsure what form the NTO would take and the options available to the keeper. Would NSL be able to supply you with a blank form of NTO which would not only assist your understanding but also ensure that the keeper is fully briefed and able to respond quickly when served.
Some thoughts.
Thanks much.
I take it that with their last letter I do have another 14 days to pay reduced £40 if needed. So I have emailed them asking for a blank form NTO as per your suggestion. Let's see what they come back with.
This is what I have written:
______________________________________________
Dean NSL Services,
ECN xxxxxxx, I have unsuccessfully challenged this notice but wish to find out better my options to dispute this further.
I have been informed in writing (letter dated 26th Feb, 2025) that the next stage in the enforcement process would be for NSL to issue a Notice to Owner to the registered keeper. In this case, the vehicle is on long-term lease from Octopus Electric Vehicle who are the registered keeper. I would like to contact them to apprise them of the situation but are unsure what form the NTO would take and the options available to the keeper.
May I request NSL to kindly supply me with a blank form of NTO which would not only assist me in understanding but also ensure that the keeper is fully briefed and able to respond quickly when served.
Please advise.
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No-one's going to court at this stage.
But 'Therefore, my reading is that if NSL sends them an NTO, they will reply with my details (and inform me of the same with a copy of NTO they receive) and then I would likely be sent another NTO by NSL subsequently.' may or may not be correct in this case, we can't know because the legislation they state they're acting under makes no provision for NTOs so we've no way of knowing what one might state.
You might contact NSL and ask them ....
Perhaps..
ECN ******, you've unsuccessfully challenged this notice and been informed in writing (letter dated ****) that the next stage in the enforcement process would be for NSL to issue a Notice to Owner to the registered keeper. In this case, the vehicle is on long-term lease from **** who are the registered keeper. You would like to contact them to apprise them of the situation but are unsure what form the NTO would take and the options available to the keeper. Would NSL be able to supply you with a blank form of NTO which would not only assist your understanding but also ensure that the keeper is fully briefed and able to respond quickly when served.
Some thoughts.
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Does this information change your suggestion?
No.
You are NEITHER dealing with a Parking Charge Notice(private parking) NOR a Penalty Charge Notice(enforcement authority), you are dealing with an Excess Charge Notice. A different beast.
Do not fall into the trap of mapping across experience of parking/penalty charge notices to this issue.
Yes, I understand that this is neither a Parking Charge Notice nor a Penalty Charge Notice, I was just mentioning PCNs as I don't expect different behavior from my leasing company. Of course, the behavior of NSL and the whole appeal process could be materially different but my leasing company is just going to pass on my details and NOT charge me an admin fee.
Therefore, my reading is that if NSL sends them an NTO, they will reply with my details (and inform me of the same with a copy of NTO they receive) and then I would likely be sent another NTO by NSL subsequently.
I do understand that without the actual NTO it's going to difficult for the kind people here to advise me. But even if that has a small chance of an actual appearance in the court to challenge, I would rather just pay £40 now than fight to save £80 then. Therefore, I am inclined to just pay £40 and settle this now, unless advised differently here.
Many thanks again.
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Does this information change your suggestion?
No.
You are NEITHER dealing with a Parking Charge Notice(private parking) NOR a Penalty Charge Notice(enforcement authority), you are dealing with an Excess Charge Notice. A different beast.
Do not fall into the trap of mapping across experience of parking/penalty charge notices to this issue.
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For previous Parking Charge Notices, the lease company DID NOT pay. They simply share my details with whoever issued the PCN and I would expect exactly the same for this ECN. And they didn't charge me any admin fee. Would expect the same this time as well.
Does this information change your suggestion?
I think we'd need to see the NTO and the options available to the keeper to be sure. If it's the same as a PCN then fine.
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Many thanks regarding Pofa explanation.
For previous Parking Charge Notices, the lease company DID NOT pay. They simply share my details with whoever issued the PCN and I would expect exactly the same for this ECN. And they didn't charge me any admin fee. Would expect the same this time as well.
Does this information change your suggestion?
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Ditto,
You've pre-empted my next question regarding who is likely to be the recipient.
It's a mess.
As for 'It seems the defense of "unknown" driver is lost in this case,', this is private parking charge-speak (presumably in the context of Protection of Freedoms Act) whose provisions regarding 'keeper liability' apply only to unregulated land, but this land is regulated (under statutory control) so it doesn't apply.
I've no idea what this so-called Notice to Owner would provide. You're rather presuming it'll take the form of a NTO under the Traffic Management Act, with all the niceties of representations and specified grounds which allow lease and vehicle-hire companies(these are separate legal entities and different arguments apply) to relieve themselves of liability by naming a hirer or lessee. But it can't be the same because there's no option to appeal to an adjudicator with an ECN.
If your lease company might charge you to administer a NTO then on balance I'd pay now.
I'd love to know where NSL are going with this but can't ask you/your lease company to be pathfinders at your expense.
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As it's a lease car I think it may be best to pay the discount and get rid of it.
Wait for Mr Anderson but the combination of ECN/lease is not conducive - they may well just pay it and bill it to you and I don't know if they can transfer it to you. They may also charge an admin fee.
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Found the £80....
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1194/contents/made
Reg. 4.
But cannot find anything which means anyone other than the person who parked the vehicle is liable, see the 1995 Regs:
7(2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the same.
(the 14 days has been amended by subsequent regs).
Thanks but since I did provide correct contact details and full address with my appeal, can they claim they know the driver's contact details and demand that the driver pay?
It seems the defense of "unknown" driver is lost in this case, correct? So when/if the NTO comes this defense won't work and liability would be £80. Does this involve court visit then? (May not be worth the hassle in such a case)
Also, I don't know if it matters but the car is on a lease but the "keeper" company will certainly share the details of "leaser" /me if asked. Thought I should share for completeness in case it's relevant.
Many thanks for your time and help.
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Found the £80....
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/1194/contents/made
Reg. 4.
But cannot find anything which means anyone other than the person who parked the vehicle is liable, see the 1995 Regs:
7(2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the same.
(the 14 days has been amended by subsequent regs).
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I've no idea what hymn sheet NSL are reading from but I cannot suggest the 'owner' risks the discount simply to find out. It's their choice.
Sorry don't think I understand. The driver's appeal has been rejected so will lose the discount after 14 days. Then as per them full liability (and no discount) could be shifted to owner via an NTO, so the owner never had a discount to begin with. Or maybe I am missing what you are saying.
In any case, you are tempting me to not pay £40 and see how it goes. For one I wasn't in the wrong and I have no option to appeal again as things stand without an NTO first issued.
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No idea.
There are no regulatory provisions to consult other than those to which I've referred and these don't refer to NTO or anything similar.
I've no idea what hymn sheet NSL are reading from but I cannot suggest the 'owner' risks the discount simply to find out. It's their choice.
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Depending on the wording of the so-called Notice to Owner, I cannot find any legal basis for NSL to request the registered keeper's data from DVLA.
Many thanks for your response.
I am not 100% sure the Helpline number wasn't stated anywhere but very likely it wasn't.
Can they use the contact details shared as part of my "appeal" as an identification of the driver rather than going via DVLA?
NTO (if served) would presumably be served after getting keeper's details either from my appeal or from DVLA, I am not sure how likely an NTO would be in this case.
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The next step in their procedure is a Notice to Owner.
But there's no provision for holding an 'owner' - whatever or whoever this is supposed to be- liable:
2) The excess charge shall be paid to the Secretary of State, or to a person authorised by the Secretary of State to receive such charge on his behalf, by the person who parked the vehicle in the Park within 14 days of the date of a written demand for the same.
Depending on the wording of the so-called Notice to Owner, I cannot find any legal basis for NSL to request the registered keeper's data from DVLA.
I don't know whether NSL would re-offer the lower rate of ECN even after unsuccessful 'reps' but if you/the person on whom the 'NTO' would be served want to chance your arm then as far as I can see the person who is asked to pay on the basis of the 'NTO' would have these arguments (but whether these directly map across to stated grounds of 'reps' in the 'NTO' who knows?):
They were not the driver and therefore the person deemed liable under the 1994 regulations;
There is no basis for an Excess Charge of £80, the most recent regulations enable a charge of £50;
Contrary to the statement in NSL's letter dated *** none of the *** unserviceable machines carried any information regarding phoning for assistance to report broken machines;
Up to whoever thinks they'd receive the 'NTO' as to whether to let matters run this far.
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Never possible? Well you were informed that another machine was also out of order. Customer helpline? Is there one - and chances of it being answered probably low.
I agree 100% but would it be worth it, can't appeal again and I would be risking paying £80 instead of £40.
No idea about Customer Helpline number, I didn't see any number written on the machine or the signage at least.
What should be my next step?
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I cannot find any reference to an ECN charge of £80 or that the owner may be held liable.
If anyone can, pl post a reference.
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I note from your correspondence that you were unable to make payment due to an issue with the Pay & Display machine. I acknowledge your comments, however, please be advised, the onus is on the driver to make payment for parking before leaving the vehicle, or alternative legal parking should be sought.
It is never possible for all ticket machines to be out of order in our parks. In every location we have at least two or three machines. If one machine is not working for any reason, the customer should call the help line number where they are advised to use the nearest machine which is usually 3-4 minutes away.
Never possible? Well you were informed that another machine was also out of order. Customer helpline? Is there one - and chances of it being answered probably low.
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Got a rejection response to my appeal. Not that it matters but it does appear that they reset the 14 day period with the response. Will pay in a couple of days, unless advised otherwise here.
Pasting the reply below:
______________________________________________
26/02/2025
Dear Mr xxxx,
Ticket Number RK2051xxxxx
Issued on 16/02/2025
Vehicle Registration XXXXXX
Location West Carriage Drive
I am in receipt of your correspondence regarding the above Excess Charge Notice.
The above vehicle was parked in a Pay & Display bay without displaying a valid Pay & Display ticket, therefore, the Excess Charge Notice has been issued correctly.
According to the evidence collected by the Parking Attendant, no Pay & Display ticket was seen. Please note a valid Pay & Display ticket is only valid for use for parking when displayed in accordance with regulations in the windscreen of a vehicle.
I note from your correspondence that you were unable to make payment due to an issue with the Pay & Display machine. I acknowledge your comments, however, please be advised, the onus is on the driver to make payment for parking before leaving the vehicle, or alternative legal parking should be sought.
It is never possible for all ticket machines to be out of order in our parks. In every location we have at least two or three machines. If one machine is not working for any reason, the customer should call the help line number where they are advised to use the nearest machine which is usually 3-4 minutes away.
I have carefully considered the points you have raised in your challenge but have decided not to cancel your Excess Charge Notice.
You are, therefore, requested to comply with the Excess Charge Notice. However, the reduced charge of £40.00 will still be accepted provided payment is received within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to make payment will result in the full Excess Charge Notice of £80.00 becoming due.
If you still wish to dispute this Excess Charge Notice, the DVLA registered keeper will be sent a Notice to Owner who may make formal representation against the Excess Charge Notice. Please note, the full charge of £80.00 will be applicable at the Notice to Owner stage.
Failure to make payment or submit a formal representation will result in the progression of the Excess Charge Notice resulting in the debt being passed to Trace Debt Recovery UK Ltd to recover the outstanding balance on behalf of Royal Parks. Once the debt has been passed to Trace Debt Recovery UK Ltd, we will not be able to accept any payments. You will need to contact them directly.
Payment Options
• Phone 03432082089.
• Online https://parkingservices.nsl.co.uk/royalparks/notices/default.asp
• Post Cheques are required to be made payable to ‘Royal Parks’; please include your Excess Charge Notice number, vehicle registration number, and address on the back; then send it to:
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As an update, I have appealed online and received an "acknowledgement" email.
It doesn't appear to freeze the 14 day discount window, so likely I would need to pay up in the next 12 days in case of no response or rejection. Will update here if it the appeal is somehow honoured.
Thanks all.
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I think there's a good chance they'll cancel given the machine faults.
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ECNs used to turn up on PePiPoo every so often. Including from the Royal Parks and Epping Forest. And a long case from Doncaster. The Doncaster case had very comprehensive information on the subject of ECNs. Alas we no longer have any access.
The standing advice with ECNs was to pay them especially if there was a discount option still available. That's because ultimately the case would progress with a summons to a Magistrate's Court with a charge of failing to pay the ECN. At that point the merits of the original PCN got lost and it's just not worth the hassle of trying to defend. Also it's the Registered Keeper that's ultimately liable if the driver is not identified or can't be traced.
That said, NSL might be new on the block. Last I recall the ECNs in the Royal Parks were issued by the Royal Parks Constabulary who are Police Officers. I think that the Constabulary were subsumed into the Met Police at some point.
I don't know if there is any requirement or standard practice to re-offer the discount when a challenge is submitted within 14 days. Probably not.
See what others have to say.
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@stamfordman @h c Anderson
Thanks for taking interest, it does appear to me appealing and hoping for best is my best bet. I am sure if I wait for NTO then the amount will jump to £80 while I can pay £40 right now and move on.
Will still give appealing a shot, just in case as there doesn't appear to be any driver Identity issues. Any precedents for dysfunctional machines as reasonable excuse to fight these?
Any other strong views to prevent me from appealing right now? (Have another 10+ days TBF)
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@stamfordman, this is the first section of the RTRA you cited:
107 Liability of vehicle owner in respect of excess parking charge.
(1)This section applies where—
(a)an excess charge has been incurred in pursuance of an order under sections 45 and 46 of this Act;
However, Royal Parks parking infringements aren't incurred under ss45 and 46.
But surely there is broader legislation which deals with ECN procedures?
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So it was at payment stage it failed and no money was taken?
Yes, that is right, no money was deducted. Didn't know what else could be done when the issue was clearly not limited to one machine and I didn't have any coins. Just decided to leave as is.
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Not an expert on ECNs but I think the same owner liability applies as per PCNs and the driver identity is irrelevant but I may be reading it wrong:
it shall be conclusively presumed (notwithstanding that that person may not be an individual) that he was the driver of the vehicle at that time and, accordingly, that acts or omissions of the driver of the vehicle at that time were his acts or omissions.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VIII/crossheading/enforcement-of-excess-parking-charges
So it was at payment stage it failed and no money was taken?
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Driver liability is irrelevant here I think as they'll serve an NTO on the keeper regardless.
Are you implying that they are very likely to reject my challenge as the driver and then will eventually send an NTO unless I have paid?
At what stage of the process did the machine give up the ghost?
The machine said "Please wait" when I used contactless payment, seemed like some network issues with machine. The other gentleman said exact same issue with another machine he tried.
Who knows coins would have worked but I didn't have any.
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Driver liability is irrelevant here I think as they'll serve an NTO on the keeper regardless.
At what stage of the process did the machine give up the ghost?
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They are following the same two step process as for a usual windscreen parking PCN - it's just that the final appeal stage of London Tribunals is not open to you.
I would politely challenge it with the picture evidence of the machine not responding and the the info about another machine you heard.
Many thanks, so should I "politely challenge" as the driver and hope for the best?
The whole "unknown driver" Vs. "known keeper" dynamic of Privately issued Parking Charge Notices is not relevant here at all? With no point of trying to not reveal who the driver was?
(Apologies if this is obvious, I got this wrong for private PCNs so want to be doubly sure)
Many thanks
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The regs themselves are pretty limited(you can peruse fairly quickly by logging on to this website https://www.legislation.gov.uk and inputting Hyde Park and Regents Park in the search field and selecting 'All secondary legislation' in the 'Type' field).
Look at the Explanatory Notes for each set of regs to give you a quick overview.
You won't find anything resembling the minute detail of process we see with decriminalised road traffic contraventions but simply 'a person' who fails to comply with regs, 'excess charge' and 'proceedings'. There must be other regs (not specific to Royal Parks) which deal with the issue of liability (for an excess charge) and how this may be pursued.
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They are following the same two step process as for a usual windscreen parking PCN - it's just that the final appeal stage of London Tribunals is not open to you.
I would politely challenge it with the picture evidence of the machine not responding and the the info about another machine you heard.
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"see what the score is" is the same as this: -
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/know%20the%20score
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Best if you go to their suggested website to see what the score is,
Many thanks for your reply. I did visit the website, it does have an option to "appeal", though first step was entering all contact details, which I didn't do. What do you mean by "the score"? Please elaborate, I don't think I understood one bit.
Anyway, I have had a quick look through the regulations, (what a pain !!), and nowhere in any of them is any reference made to "Notice to Owner". There is nothing at all about submitting representations or any formal structure for their receipt and assessment. So my conclusion is that enforcement is a matter for the magistrates courts but I may be wrong on this, so wait until others have contributed.
Thanks so much for digging these for me. As advised I will wait for others to respond. Thanks again
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That is a mess. Notice to Owner on an excess charge that requires the *driver* to pay it?
It's not a Notice to Owner as of now. The ECN was stuck on the windshield and addresses the driver directly to pay £40.
The back of the ECN states that if the charges aren't paid by the driver within 28 days they "may" issue a Notice to Owner by looking of DVLA details at that point.
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That is a mess. Notice to Owner on an excess charge that requires the *driver* to pay it?
I seem to remember there was some discussion a long time ago about whether the enforcement of excess charges could be outsourced to companies like NSL in the way penalty charge notices can. Not sure if that came to anything.
The main thing you need to know is that this is not a penalty charge notice. It is an excess charge notice. They are completely different. 99% of what you find online about parking tickets won’t apply to this.
Excess charge notices are very rare and you don’t have the same right to appeal, and you can potentially end up in court on a criminal charge for non-payment.
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Wow, we haven't seen this sort of thing for a long time !
It's an Excess Charge Notice, (ECN), and comes under the regulations they cite on the ECN. Best if you go to their suggested website to see what the score is, but normally these things are under the criminal law, not the civil law, but my knowledge of these peculiar regulations is almost non-existent, However, I do wonder at the reference to a "Notice to Owner" on the ECN, because this is a specific statutory document within the de-criminalised legislation for traffic and parking contraventions only.
Anyway, I have had a quick look through the regulations, (what a pain !!), and nowhere in any of them is any reference made to "Notice to Owner". There is nothing at all about submitting representations or any formal structure for their receipt and assessment. So my conclusion is that enforcement is a matter for the magistrates courts but I may be wrong on this, so wait until others have contributed.
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Driver tried paying for parking but the machine was stuck at "Please wait" message. Had another person walk by who said another machine was giving the same message when trying to pay by card.
Please see picture of the machine:
(https://i.imgur.com/0EH2Jsa.jpeg)
Driver concluded machines were likely not working and ended up not paying for parking. Sure enough was greeted by the below ECN on the windshield (inside a yellow sticker) when he came back to the vehicle.
Asks to pay £40 within 2 weeks or £80 if later!
What's the best approach here? Can the non-identification of the driver be used to get out of this like it can be from (PCN) Parking Charge Notices? I never heard of an ECN before and have no prior experience in dealing with this as the keeper. What are my options? Driver genuinely tried paying on the machine but it wasn't working!!
Please see relevant pictures:
ECN Redacted:
(https://i.imgur.com/KQneNmy.jpeg)
BACK:
(https://i.imgur.com/GJV2xJW.jpeg)
Venue Signage:
(https://i.imgur.com/oTEzMds.jpeg)