Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Goretechre on February 14, 2025, 11:02:50 am
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28th November is D Day.
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FWIW - I received a PCN for driving through this area last Saturday (May 31, 2025); to me, the signage was very unclear. Coming down Cornwall Road with Falmer Road on the right, it appeared that the sign on the left side of Falmer Road indicated that going that way was prohibited for vehicles.
I am not familiar with recent changes in this area, as I haven't been here for years.
I was already on a diversion due to restrictions on Rose Lane.
I presume it is fairly clear to locals? :(
Thanks in advance for any advice.
For advice with your case, please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and start your own thread (Forum rule is one case, one thread) . By all means include a link to this case in your opening post.
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FWIW - I received a PCN for driving through this area last Saturday (May 31, 2025); to me, the signage was very unclear. Coming down Cornwall Road with Falmer Road on the right, it appeared that the sign on the left side of Falmer Road indicated that going that way was prohibited for vehicles.
I am not familiar with recent changes in this area, as I haven't been here for years.
I was already on a diversion due to restrictions on Rose Lane.
I presume it is fairly clear to locals? :(
Thanks in advance for any advice.
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Hello @Goretechre and @Hippocrates
I have an identical PCN which I challenged with the same wording as per the advice shared earlier in this thread and I received the identical rejection from Haringey.
Did you have any updates on this?
I'm wondering the same, should I pay the reduced price or should I proceed further..?
Thanks a lot
Afroditi
I have replied vi PM. The NOR is a joke.
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Hi, I’m unsure of the outcome as my tribunal hasn’t happened yet
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Hello @Goretechre and @Hippocrates
I have an identical PCN which I challenged with the same wording as per the advice shared earlier in this thread and I received the identical rejection from Haringey.
Did you have any updates on this?
I'm wondering the same, should I pay the reduced price or should I proceed further..?
Thanks a lot
Afroditi
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Appeals filed.
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Got it.
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@Hippocrates. Morning, i PM'd you yesterday but nothing is in my sent messages. I've sent again just now, please let me know if you've not received anything
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@cp8759 I will, absolutely. It's just a hell of a lot of money that i don't have if i need to pay full price. This is quite a paradigm shift for me
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@Hippocrates appreciate that! Whats the next step? Seeing as theres 7 is this time consuming, and could be expensive if i lose - you dont think i should pay whilst still at £65?
The council count on that, over 90% of PCNs are paid at the 50% discounted rate. If Hippocrates is willing to represent you I'd take him up on that.
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The other 6 are disproportionate. PM me your details please and I will write to them to formally complain re their inconsistency and file the appeal.
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@Hippocrates appreciate that! Whats the next step? Seeing as theres 7 is this time consuming, and could be expensive if i lose - you dont think i should pay whilst still at £65?
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I suggest:
1. Tribunal.
2. Formal complaint to the council in terms of The Nolan Principles.
Happy to assist with both.
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@Hippocrates @cp8759 Hi there, they've rejected all 7 reps
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ohdho1mvd_6pE2Y_7eXy3GcXf6SaHSff/view?usp=sharing
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I have just registered a couple and have conclusive evidence that they allowed one before the Tribunal stage which means that the issue of fairness comes into play. I have intervened in another's case too just a few minutes ago to get it sorted. Used exactly the same submissions in all.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-from-haringey-code-52(m)-cornwall-road-n15-(gorleston-rdfalmer-rd-east-west-/msg65874/#msg65874
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All you can do is either wait, or call the council and ask what's going on.
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@Hippocrates @cp8759
Still no written response regarding my reps, one of the PCN's ZN15688510 VN05EKZ has gone up to £130 and under key events it reads "On Hold :Representation Received (26/05/2025 )"
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They never become void, but if they don't issue a response within 3 months you can appeal on the ground that the delay is excessive.
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I've sent the requested rep via Special Delivery post and email. The other 6 PCN reps were sent on the 21st feb, still zero response. At what point are they void?
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You could go online and reiterate it again. I will PM you an officer's e mail address.
I would re-submit it via the council website as well as sending it by email, take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.
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You could go online and reiterate it again. I will PM you an officer's e mail address.
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@Hippocrates Letter received from them on the 22nd and asks to challenge again by post even though we sent additional info stating she gives permission for myself to make a representation with signature and driving licence. Is this a tactic? Im guessing i should send the letter signed for, could still go missing? https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fzomzm_J4TRHifLqGLXkhPuuZbiTBEo0/view?usp=sharing
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Does this mean they've rejected the representation?
I have no idea, you'll have to wait for the letter to come in the post. Alternatively, you could call them and see if they can email you a copy.
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@cp8759 I wrongly ticked 'mitigating circumstances' for ZN15688510 and after advice from Hippocrates entered additional info amending to 'contravention did not occur' as the PCN is invalid. I then added written confirmation from my partner who is registered keeper of the vehicle stating permission for me to contest the PCN, with ID . Only ZN15688510 was done like this, the others were appealed in her name
Does this mean they've rejected the representation?
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The Key Events tab of the council website indicates something was issued for ZN15688510 today:
(https://i.imgur.com/HdYM9Z2.png)
For ZN15754400, ZN15760640, ZN15709461, ZN15795237, ZN15720759 & ZN15730118 representations are still in the queue for consideration. The longer they take, the better it is. If they go much over 90 days, that gives you an additional ground of appeal on the basis of Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RndFZ_r1JlVDGvo13wKLGpDCy3OBXqW/view).
In the meantime can you tell us what these further letters to & from the council for ZN15688510 might be?
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Don't superimpose your local knowledge over what's in the PCN pl.
The PCN states:
Cornwall Road -(Gorleston Road/Falmer Road - East/West).
Is the LTN you're alleged to have contravened in Cornwall Road or not?
No, the signs are situated in Falmer Road.
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Its known as Cornwall Road LTN. Traffic driving down Cornwall Road north to south is now directed onto Falmer Road. Traffic driving along Gorleston is directed onto Cornwall Road heading south. The LTN in the middle.
My PCN is from Gorleston through the LTN (over Cornwall) onto Falmer Road
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OP, I'm confused and would appreciate you walking me through the location.
As far as I can see from GSV(the light coloured building being my reference point), you were travelling along Gorleston Rd, ignored the left-turn arrow and with the light-coloured building on your right carried across (in effect turned right from) Gorleston into Falmer.
What's Cornwall vot to do with matters? This isn't a no right-turn contravention, even if you were in Cornwall for a millimetre, it's no motor vehicles in Falmer.
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@Hippocrates Hello just thought i'd update you...
The reps were made on 21st feb but still not had a response either on the Haringey portal or in the post
Thanks.
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Hi, yeah i checked theres been no movement for weeks. Odd
ZN15688510
ZN15709461
ZN15720759
ZN15730118
ZN15754400
ZN15760640
ZN15795237
VN05EKZ
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@Goretechre it's really easy to check the PCN history on the council website, if you give me the PCN number and number plate I can do this for you.
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@Hippocrates Hello just thought i'd update you...
The reps were made on 21st feb but still not had a response either on the Haringey portal or in the post
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@Hippocrates amended. I've just realised these are addressed to my partner, she is the keeper and im on the insurance and 99% the one driving, i also live at the address. Am i allowed to appeal? I've already sent the first
She must authorise you. Send another amendment with authorisation from her.
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@Hippocrates amended. I've just realised these are addressed to my partner, she is the keeper and im on the insurance and 99% the one driving, i also live at the address. Am i allowed to appeal? I've already sent the first
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Cancel "mitigating circumstances" and insert what I wrote in my last post via the portal link. Leave the other substantive text.
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@Hippocrates
I only ticked 'mitigating circumstances' and pasted what you told me to send, thats all:
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;
In light of the above, please cancel.
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What did you write. You can always amend.
https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/PCN/MakeRepresentationBarbourLogic
Add further information: contravention did not occur as the PCN is invalid.
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@Hippocrates
VN05EKZ
Dammit I’ve already put made a Rep for the first one ZN15688510 i didnt see your reply as it went to page 2
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Not mitigating circumstances. Please can we have the VRM so we can access their website and what it actually states at present? As far as I recall it is very general. Contravention did not occur will do for now.
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@Hippocrates Im pasting the text you said, nothing needs entering or amending, just paste in as is and tick "mitigating circumstances"?
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;
In light of the above, please cancel.
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@Hippocrates
Im pasting the text you said, nothing needs entering or amending, just paste in as is and tick "mitigating circumstances"?
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;
In light of the above, please cancel.
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As above, challenge all of the PCN and take a screenshot of the confirmation page, at the end you should have as many confirmation screenshots as you have PCNs.
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@Hippocrates hi sorry to keep pestering you! Should i appeal the first one and see what happens or should i just appeal them all?
You must make representations against all of them and individually. No worries.
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@Hippocrates hi sorry to keep pestering you! Should i appeal the first one and see what happens or should i just appeal them all?
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@Hippocrates Is their following text without proper spacing not enough in itself to void the PCN's?
"OR, if you believe you have good reason not to pay the penalty charge, you should write to us explaining why (seerepresentationssectionoverleaf).Althoughtherearespecificlegalgroundsformakingrepresentations,we will consider exercising or discreation..."
also 'may be' is spelled "maybe"?
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So i'll paste the following into the rep online for all 7 (theres a total of 7 listed online on the payment page).
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;
In light of the above, please cancel.
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So as advised: make formal reps. against each one.
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@cp8759 Much appreciated!
@Hippocrates Morning, i think this might be all of the PCN's - 6 in total!
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dFtYSn6Qn7v-zrc2fyYzog1E_MOn-Dzi?usp=sharing
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@Goretechre I'll leave you in Hippocrates's capable hands.
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Put in the same and explain that the issue of several PCNs is disproportionate for what is essentially a repeated alleged contravention. I am helping another member who has 8.
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@Hippocrates There's more at home also
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CL9WQGiEnlhegU3eiUnxwEYrFh7qq39S/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fbk5T5FxU7hgURGEkTkwXIqyqKtMn5j4/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CUP7HPJFRfWPqS3rbzQ99tjr_LA3oMM4/view?usp=sharing
Should i appeal the first PCN with the text you recommended to see what happens?
Thanks
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No worries: most laws are hard enough to understand but this one is an exception!
It should say that payment should be made by the date of the notice. The corollary is that they have also not stated that they may issue a charge certificate unless you make reps. from the date of service.
If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge during the 28 day period indicated, or to make representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £195 may be payable”.
Even better would be a full recital of the 2 different periods for payment and for making representations.
Let's deal with each one and cross each bridge at the appropriate time. The others would be classed as disproportionate most likely. But, you must make reps. against each one separately.
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@Hippocrates Thank you! What should it say for the PCN to be payable? Sorry im a total layman here. I need to make certain all of the PCN's that are sent read the same
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The PCN is invalid. Back in a moment. I won a case on this very recently:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mq9MAnLdByhCxR5IzpKhvDT7LKlTOHUJ/view
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378
Use this:
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:
1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;
In light of the above, please cancel.
*************
I am happy to represent you should they reject.
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@cp8759
After living with this in my street 3 years i stupidly thought id been reading the signage wrong and began driving through the LTN. Google began sending people through. Drove through possibly 10 times, the PCN's haven’t stopped arriving yet! I was going to be honest and plead leniency? Please help
My appeal draft:
Recently there was a broken water main on West Green Road with diversions in place within the area and some open LTN’s.
During this time I saw lots of cars driving through the Gorleston Rd/Falmer Rd LTN, this was confounded by Google Maps directing people through this LTN. I understand sat nav is an aid not permission to drive somewhere but at the time it added to my decision. This all made me think I had been misreading the sign incorrectly since the LTN was instated and I thought that you can actually drive through outside of these times ‘8am - 6.30pm mon - fri’. You’ll notice my contravention times all coincide with my confusion regarding these hours.
Often upon entering other LTN’s in the area the signage displaying any applicable entry hours is above head height. It is visible on the parking prohibited sign but in a separate section which I misinterpreted as pertaining to the LTN.
Historically I have not and would never have knowingly driven through otherwise.
Since August 2022 I’ve not driven through these, I didn’t all of a sudden begin driving through for no apparent reason. My mistake was an honest one and I drove through in good faith thinking I was adhering to the signage.
I now have multiple PCN’s for this same contravention during this week of confusion, could you please show some leniency and reduce the fine’s?
Ive attached screen grabs showing Google Maps sending people through the LTN’s in my street just so you can see.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1olzr_iAvks8fETeNxi6_I4--nJ8DJ4Iq/view?usp=sharing