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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: rr5329 on September 10, 2023, 09:22:31 am

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: cp8759 on February 12, 2024, 11:29:01 pm

Quote from: rr5329 on February 09, 2024, 01:36:39 pm

Hello,
I had submitted the case to the London tribunals. I got an email that my case will be heard on 6th Feb. I have not got any decision update yet.

Don't tell me you asked for a decision on the papers?!?

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: John U.K. on February 09, 2024, 04:07:20 pm

+1

Please show us the e-mail. You could also telephone the tribunal and ask for the status of your case.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: H C Andersen on February 09, 2024, 03:25:12 pm

?
Having registered you would have access to the online portal giving you process A-Z. You should also have received the council's Evidence pack.

Your account has more gaps than substance. Also, the hearing was not determined on 6 Feb.

??

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on February 09, 2024, 01:36:39 pm

Hello,
I had submitted the case to the London tribunals. I got an email that my case will be heard on 6th Feb. I have not got any decision update yet. The online portal of the London tribunals asks for appeal verification code. (its mentioned that it should be on the notice of rejection letter) but I can not find any appeal verification code. How to check the status of the decision of my case ?

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Incandescent on January 08, 2024, 09:46:56 am

My only doubt is that the location is a shopping centre, and one presumes has parking facilities.  The adjudicator may look askance at parking where you did if there were parking facilities there that you could have used.  15 minutes is a long time for assisted boarding. You may be OK, but it doesn't look a slam-dunk win to me, but see what the others say.

Of course if they haven't re-offered the discount it is a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on January 08, 2024, 04:42:07 am

This was my original representation - .

Dear London Borough of Harrow,

I challenge liability for PCN HR72522195 because the alleged contravention did not occur.

On this occasion I was picking up my son 5 year old son from a birthday venue called Puttstars, Harrow, (St Georges Shopping Centre, Harrow HA1 1AS). This shopping centre is adjacent to the the location where I stopped my car.

This venue is on the second floor so I had to wait for the lift and then go to the second floor, before returning with my son. All this would have taken about 15 minutes.

While I appreciate parking is not permitted at this location, there is an exemption for assisted boarding and alighting and a 5 year old child cannot be expected to make his way to the road on his own.

In light of the above the contravention did not occur and I invite you to cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully,

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Incandescent on January 08, 2024, 01:39:21 am

Quote from: rr5329 on January 07, 2024, 08:28:32 am

Thanks a lot for your reply.
For the appeal to the independent adjudicator should I submit the same content as in the appeal to the council ?
Can you please help me frame the reply.

Regards,

Have you posted your original representations here ? You can use these but the adjudicator won't be interested in the loss of discount.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on January 07, 2024, 08:28:32 am

Thanks a lot for your reply.
For the appeal to the independent adjudicator should I submit the same content as in the appeal to the council ?
Can you please help me frame the reply.

Regards,

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Incandescent on December 20, 2023, 08:01:11 pm

If they don't budge on the discount, it is a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, and anyway, you were undertaking assisted boarding, an exemption to yellow lines. Don't let their arrogant letter put you off, you are in a winning situation.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on December 20, 2023, 03:37:19 pm

Hello,
I received an email that my formal challenge to the PCN has been rejected. About my question on why I my fine was increased to £110 from £55 even though I submitted the first challenge within 14 days they have said that it may be because of postal or other reasons.

Should I appeal to the independent adjudicator now ? Is there a way I can get this at least reduced to £55 ?
The email that I received is attached.

Please help.

Regards

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Incandescent on November 18, 2023, 12:29:21 am

Quote from: rr5329 on November 17, 2023, 09:26:50 pm

Thanks a lot this clarifies. [img width=22.997684478759766 height=22.997684478759766]https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji120.png[/img]
I will submit the formal representation to the NTO

Also mention in your reps that by issuing the NtO, they have denied you the discount which is promised on the PCN for reps received within the discount period.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on November 17, 2023, 09:26:50 pm

Thanks a lot this clarifies. (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji120.png)
I will submit the formal representation to the NTO

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Incandescent on November 17, 2023, 08:45:43 pm

Have a read of your PCN.
Somewhere in it, it will say that representations against the PCN will be considered, but if, notwithstanding those representations,  the council serve a Notice to Owner anyway, the recipient must respond in the time and manner indicated on the NtO. Normally, in responding to a formal reps against the NtO, the council will re-offer the discount. But you have yet to submit formal reps.

Whatever you do, DO NOT ignore the NTO or you'll lose game, set, and match.

Councils issuing NtOs before they have responded to informal reps is commonplace, I'm afraid.  The legislation is as it is, so we must live with it.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on November 17, 2023, 05:29:35 pm

Thanks a lot for your reply.
But why is the representation that I made earlier considered informal ?

I had challenged the PCN through the council website. As per the details mentioned on the back of the PCN I should have got a response to that challenge , which I never got and I should have also gotten a 14 day period again to pay the reduced fine - £55 but now the NTO clearly says that the fine is £110.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: cp8759 on November 17, 2023, 05:12:02 pm

The council isn't legally required to answer informal representations, but they do have to answer a formal challenge to the notice to owner.

Therefore you should go to the council website and make exactly the same representation again.

Title: Re: Notice to Owner - Please help - Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on November 16, 2023, 10:09:38 pm

Hello,
I have got a new notice delivered by post.  (Notice to Owner)
The new notice has the fine amount as £110 and a time to submit as 28 days.

I never for a reply for the appeal that I had made. Also, the first PCN mentioned that even if my appeal is rejected. , I will again have 14 days to pay the fine amount as £55 but the new notice does not mention anything about that.

Please help me with the next steps.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: cp8759 on September 12, 2023, 12:27:33 am

Quote from: rr5329 on September 11, 2023, 11:08:29 pm

Thanks a lot for framing the reply.
Yes I have the birthday invite.

Upload the birthday invite with the representation, also keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on September 11, 2023, 11:08:29 pm

Thanks a lot for framing the reply.
Yes I have the birthday invite.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2023, 10:25:29 pm

Here you go:

Dear London Borough of Harrow,

I challenge liability for PCN HR72522195 because the alleged contravention did not occur.

On this occasion I was picking up my son 5 year old son from a birthday venue called Puttstars, Harrow, (St Georges Shopping Centre, Harrow HA1 1AS). This shopping centre is adjacent to the the location where I stopped my car.

This venue is on the second floor so I had to wait for the lift and then go to the second floor, before returning with my son. All this would have taken about 15 minutes.

While I appreciate parking is not permitted at this location, there is an exemption for assisted boarding and alighting and a 5 year old child cannot be expected to make his way to the road on his own.

In light of the above the contravention did not occur and I invite you to cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully,

Send that off for now, in the meantime do you have any supporting evidence, such as an invite to the birthday event?

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on September 11, 2023, 10:27:49 am

Thanks for your reply.
I was picking up my son from a venue called Puttstars, Harrow, (St Georges Shopping Centre, Harrow HA1 1AS). This shopping centre is exactly adjacent to the the location where I got the PCN.
This venue is on the second floor so I had to take the elevator which had some waiting and then go to the venue and come back, again take the elevator. All this would have taken about 15 minutes.

Thanks for sharing about assisting boarding and alighting.

Will be very grateful if you can help framing the challenge reply.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2023, 01:11:45 am

Don't worry about the discount, based on what you've told us you won't be paying anything. However it's important that we get all the facts, so please confirm exactly where you were picking up your son from, and how long it took you to walk there, pick him up and walk back.

The reason why I say you won't be paying this is that the law allows you to stop on double yellow lines to let people in or out of the car, this is called the boarding and alighting exemption. However the law also recognises that some people can't get in and out of a car without assistance, and reasonably require the help of an able-bodied adult to accompany them from nearby premises to a vehicle or vice-versa, this is called assisted boarding / alighting.

As you can't expect a 5 year old child to walk down the road and possibly cross the street unaided, you did not commit any contravention, we just need to get all the facts straight so that we can explain what's what in the representations.

For later reference:

The Harrow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) Traffic Order 2014 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1SxOwb9JjwA6EKp-2CW9s_1wUHLKECZPx)
Schedule 1 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1ZFAzLeBTtYxokldjcwlMS-KJTlwTdv4K)

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on September 10, 2023, 10:40:59 pm

Hello,
Can learned members please urgently help on this since tomorrow is the last day of the 14 day period for me.

Regards,

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on September 10, 2023, 12:57:28 pm

Thanks a lot for your reply.

1)My son is 5 years old.
2)I have added the back side of the PCN and the pictures added by the council here - https://flic.kr/ps/431A4o

The reason for me parking there -
  1)I was in a rush to pick up my son who was waiting since long.
  2)Other cars were parked there and it looked like a normal parking location and I got confused by the parking bay signs and the double yellow lines together.

Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/7djBuesjnpKvMhSr9 -

Its visible here that both double yellow lines and the parking bay indicator white lines are present on the same site. The pictures on the council site have hidden the parking bay indicators but they are present on that location.

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Pastmybest on September 10, 2023, 12:35:15 pm

how old is you son? Forget about the loading only mark it has nothing to do with the contravention charged.

Please answer my question and post all the PCN (both sides) also get and post all the council picks and a GSV

There is most likely a valid defense here but lets get the information before we speculate

Title: Re: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: Incandescent on September 10, 2023, 10:55:25 am

First thing to say is that how can there be a bay with double-yellow lines at the back ? However, if this is really lawful the main point is that picking up passengers is an exemption to the double-yellow lines, but must be completed as soon as possible. There is also "assisted boarding", where the driver has to collect a "vulnerable person" from a nearby location.
So please tell us more about why you had to leave the car parked. You have to explain 6 minutes.

Title: Harrow, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Greenhill Way
Post by: rr5329 on September 10, 2023, 09:22:31 am

Hello, I got a PCN stuck on my car. The 14 day reduced period is valid till Monday, 11 Sep for me.
Any help to decide and also draft the challenge to the PCN will be a great help for me as this is a significant amount for me.

PCN image - https://flic.kr/ps/431A4o

I had to pick up my son from the birthday venue , he was supposed to be picked up by a friend but at the last minute they got stuck so I had to rush as my son was waiting for about 30 mins after the party. In the rush, I parked along the roadside, the road has double yellow lines but it also has parking slots marked with white lines.
The duration mentioned on the ticket is 6 mins.

"Loading Only" mark on the road has almost vanished completely - Image - https://flic.kr/ps/431A4o

Location - https://goo.gl/maps/7djBuesjnpKvMhSr9

Kindly help me in suggesting next steps. Is there any hope that this charge can be waived off ?