Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: henryjago on February 11, 2025, 01:57:06 pm
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Dear D. Milton
I am sitting in the smallest room of my house.
At the moment, your letter is in front of me.
In a moment, it will be behind me.
After Max Reger, composer.
;D ;D ;D PMSL
Standing I hope, rather than in Mr Reger's position.
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Dear D. Milton
I am sitting in the smallest room of my house.
At the moment, your letter is in front of me.
In a moment, it will be behind me.
After Max Reger, composer.
;D ;D ;D PMSL
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Dear D. Milton
I am sitting in the smallest room of my house.
At the moment, your letter is in front of me.
In a moment, it will be behind me.
After Max Reger, composer.
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@Hippocrates @cp8759 Received the enclosed today. It's very magnanimous of them to apply discretion, but if they genuinely view the grounds on which I made my formal rep, I don't understand why. I am therefore working on the basis they knew it was likely to be cancelled at tribunal and would then have to either write "bus lane" on the road and/or change the lines on the road - or cancel any other PCNs taken since. Either way, I am now "On Notice"! I'm taking the win and thought you might like to see the letter. Thank you both for your help over the last few months. :-)
(https://imgur.kageurufu.net/OkerR6m.jpeg)
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No point in speculating, if it's cancelled it's cancelled. The notice of acceptance from TFL is likely in the post but it won't tell you why they cancelled it.
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https://ftla.createaforum.com/Smileys/smfnew/cheesy.gif
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;D
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Hello @cp8759 and @Hippocrates.
Hadn't heard a dickie bird about this for months, so just checked the PCN status. TfL cancelled the PCN last Friday! I have not received notification by post, or by email so have no idea why. Not that I am overly concerned about the reason, but it would be interesting. Obviously a good outcome for me, but I do wonder if they'd left it so long, they knew they'd have a hard time explaining the delay at Tribunal? Any ideas/thoughts?
(https://i.imgur.com/N53fOz6.jpeg)
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I appealed the Enforcement Notice which TfL received on the 28th March. It's been on hold since then.
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Hi, did TFL drop this? I've got the same ticket.
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Thanks both.
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Hi @Hippocrates and @cp8759.
I still have not heard back from TfL on this. They received my formal representation on 28th March and it still seems to be on hold. Is it usual to wait this long before hearing from them?
Yes, even in parking they're allowed up to 56 days to respond, in non-parking cases London authorities have no statutory time limit although the tribunal will usually say that if they take over three months, that's unfair and impermissible at common law.
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They are in a bit of a quandary at present I believe. Just be patient.
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Hi @Hippocrates and @cp8759.
I still have not heard back from TfL on this. They received my formal representation on 28th March and it still seems to be on hold. Is it usual to wait this long before hearing from them?
(https://i.imgur.com/aIjHBq0.jpeg)
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It does indeed - many thanks.
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I'll send through the post (tracked) tomorrow.
Normally, post 1st Class at any post office counter and obtain proof of posting is advised. The law the defines it as served 2 days later. Signed for post to large organisations is not reliable.
Thanks. I have gone for Special Delivery Guaranteed by 1pm. Do you think that should be okay?
As long as the certificate carries the destination address and you can print off the completed tracking record I don't see why not.
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I'll send through the post (tracked) tomorrow.
Normally, post 1st Class at any post office counter and obtain proof of posting is advised. The law the defines it as served 2 days later. Signed for post to large organisations is not reliable.
Thanks. I have gone for Special Delivery Guaranteed by 1pm. Do you think that should be okay?
(https://i.imgur.com/Ju2RTEl.jpg)
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I'll send through the post (tracked) tomorrow.
Normally, post 1st Class at any post office counter and obtain proof of posting is advised. The law the defines it as served 2 days later. Signed for post to large organisations is not reliable.
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Thanks - the formal representation is ready to go and I'll send through the post (tracked) tomorrow. Final version below (without images as they are included earlier in the thread). I will get back in touch @Hippocrates when the letter of rejection arrives - in the meantime, do let me know if you need anything ahead of the Tribunal stage. Thanks again for your help to date.
Formal Representation against Enforcement Notice (Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) GX2209961A)
I am writing to formally challenge the above Enforcement Notice regarding an alleged bus lane contravention for the reasons set out below.
1. Inadequate advance warning of the bus lane. A blue sign in Camden Road just before Lyme Street is obscured by a Congestion Charge sign. Please see Image 1. I stood in the inside lane of the road to take this photo. There should be adequate advance warning of the presence of a bus lane.
2. Confusing road markings at the junction with traffic lights at Camden Street. The inside lane becomes the bus lane immediately after the yellow box junction with traffic lights at Camden Street. The bus lane starts so close to the junction that the dotted white line of the bus lane meets the yellow line of the box junction – see Image 2. Therefore, motorists in the inside lane at the junction intending to drive straight on are not permitted to exit the junction in the same lane. However, the arrow marker on the road at the stop line indicates motorists may continue straight on – see Image 3 taken from Google Street, but doing so results in a fine. I believe there is a duty on TfL to ensure signs and road markings are clear and not misleading.
3. No BUS LANE legend. At no point does the bus lane have the words “Bus Lane” written on the tarmac from its commencement at Camden Street to the end. Other bus lanes in the Camden area do.
4. The notes on the Enforcement Notice incorrectly identify the Notice as a Penalty Charge Notice - see Image 4. This inaccuracy is misleading and confusing.
The PCN itself is unenforceable because:
5. The reference to The Interpretation Act is irrelevant and confusing as the legislation pertaining to Bus Lane enforcement refers to actions which may be taken by the authority and/or appellant from the date of the Notice.
6. The statement: "Any written correspondence before the issue of the Enforcement Notice will not be treated as a formal representation." fetters discretion and is contrary to the legislation in that it clearly implies that you will send an Enforcement Notice when the legislation states "may" at 4(3)(e)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
7. The statement: "It will not entitle you to the right of appeal." is absurd and flies in the face of the law and natural justice. Additionally, the following statement about consideration seems to contradict what has been previously stated.
8. The statement: "Failure to respond or contact us within 28 days of the service date of this notice will result in the Enforcement Notice automatically being sent to you after this period." similarly fetters discretion and mis-states the time period.
I therefore request the penalty be cancelled thereby avoiding further time and effort for both parties.
Yours sincerely,
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Yes. Write they have misidentified the En with the PCN.
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@henryjago I believe there is another page where at the top they state that the Enforcement Notice is a PCN? If so, please show the page and stick that argument in too.
Thanks @Hippocrates. This is at the top of the second page of the EN. I can include a further para in the representation that says "The notes on Page 2 of the Enforcement Notice incorrectly refers to the Notice as a Penalty Charge Notice and is both misleading and confusing".
Is this what you had in mind?
(https://i.imgur.com/pvZuyXl.jpg)
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@henryjago I believe there is another page where at the top they state that the Enforcement Notice is a PCN? If so, please show the page and stick that argument in too.
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Hi @cp8759. Just seen you post below. I am at formal rep stage following the receipt of an Enforcement Notice from TfL for being in a Bus Lane- @Hippocrates has been assisting. Reaching out to you as requested. Do I need to do/change anything in the light of your post before I fire off the representation?
No, an additional angle could have been used at the orignal PCN stage but for a bus lane case, it hardly matters.
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Thank you. Given your success rate, that would be great. Shall I come back to you when I receive a Notice of Rejection from TfL? If so should I do anything else in the meantime?
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Thanks, I will send tomorrow. Shall I come back to you when they reject? Presumably I will need to kick-off the tribunal process. Would you or someone else represent me? It seems you represent loads of people on here, so I have no desire to take anything for granted.
I will do so if you agree.
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Hi @cp8759. Just seen you post below. I am at formal rep stage following the receipt of an Enforcement Notice from TfL for being in a Bus Lane- @Hippocrates has been assisting. Reaching out to you as requested. Do I need to do/change anything in the light of your post before I fire off the representation?
This is a general announcement that all TFL's red route PCNs have another systemic flaw that renders them all open to challenge, but only if the motorist does not take any action without being given some specific instructions which I'd rather not ventilate publicly. If all such cases could be flagged to me I'll do my best to deal with them individually.
This is separate to the section 76(3) point which affects all their roadside PCNs, with the consequence that all TFL's parking PCNs are open to appeal one way or the other.
This issue might also affect bus lanes, moving traffic, ULEZ and congestion charge PCNs, I'll have to wait to see one before I can confirm.
If TFL are reading this, I promise you I'm really, really not trying to target you more than any other authority, it's just that your processes are $hit and have more holes than a sieve, that's not my fault.
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Thanks, I will send tomorrow. Shall I come back to you when they reject? Presumably I will need to kick-off the tribunal process. Would you or someone else represent me? It seems you represent loads of people on here, so I have no desire to take anything for granted.
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Fine by me.
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Many thanks @Hippocrates. Does this look okay? I've not included the images I refer to as they are posted earlier in the thread.
Formal Representation against Enforcement Notice, Penalty Charge Notice
I am writing to challenge the above PCN regarding an alleged bus lane contravention.
1. Inadequate advance warning of the bus lane. A blue sign in Camden Road just before Lyme Street is obscured by a Congestion Charge sign. Please see Image 1. I stood in the inside lane of the road to take this photo. There should be adequate advance warning of the presence of a bus lane.
2. Confusing road markings at the junction with traffic lights at Camden Street. The inside lane becomes the bus lane immediately after the yellow box junction with traffic lights at Camden Street. The bus lane commences so close to the exit of the junction that the dotted white line of the bus lane meets the yellow line of the box junction – see Image 2. Therefore, motorists in the inside lane driving straight on at the junction are not permitted to exit the junction in the same lane. However, the arrow marker on the tarmac at the stop line indicates motorists may continue straight on – see Image 3 taken from Google Street. The arrow indicates continuing straight on in the inside lane is permissible, but doing so results in a fine. I believe there is a duty on TfL to ensure signs and road markings are clear and not misleading.
3. No BUS LANE legend. At no point does the bus lane have the words “Bus Lane” written on the tarmac from its commencement at Camden Street to its end. Other bus lanes in the Camden area do.
The PCN itself its unenforceable because:
4. The reference to The Interpretation Act is both irrelevant and confusing as the legislation pertaining to Bus Lane enforcement refers to actions which may be taken by the authority and/or appellant from the date of the notice.
5. The statement: "Any written correspondence before the issue of the Enforcement Notice will not be treated as a formal representation." fetters discretion and is contrary to the legislation in that it clearly implies that you will send an Enforcement Notice when the legislation states "may" at 4(3)(e)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
6. The statement: "It will not entitle you to the right of appeal." is both absurd and flies in the face of the law and natural justice. Further, the next statement about consideration seems to contradict what has been previously stated.
7. The statement: "Failure to respond or contact us within 28 days of the service date of this notice will result in the Enforcement Notice automatically being sent to you after this period." similarly fetters discretion and also misstates the time period.
I therefore request the PCN be cancelled thereby avoiding further time and effort for both parties.
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Okay. You can tweak this draft from another case and include the obscured signage. And edit to say this is a formal representation against the EN. I would not make any comment re their initial letter of rejection.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-bus-lane-pcn-a406-green-lanes/msg63310/#msg63310
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Thanks @Hippocrates. Coming back to you as requested! I received the Enforcement Notice yesterday.
(https://i.imgur.com/1cWG5BO.jpg)
My plans were to repeat the points I used in the prelim informal rep (wording above) given TfL's response did not address two of the three points I made, and included a factual inaccuracy regarding the last. You suggested there were some anomalies with the PCN - should I refer to them at this stage too? I am assuming regardless of what I include, the likelihood is that TfL will reject out of hand regardless?
Very many thanks for your support!
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Yes, wait for the EN and I will be back as promised.
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Hello @Hippocrates. Coming back to you on this as requested. I heard back from TfL this morning, the response came by post. As expected, my informal rep has been rejected out of hand. They have ignored two of my grounds and made an error about the third - they state that the legend BUS LANE is marked on the road when it isn't.
Letter is here:
https://imgur.com/a/q7kzVtH
https://imgur.com/quoFH3U
https://imgur.com/0jFeqmL
I also received the video on CD separately:
https://imgur.com/hFBOsjy
The letter suggests the next step is to wait for the Enforcement Notice, then make a formal representation within 28 days from the date on which it is served?
Many thanks.
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I will indeed @Hippocrates, thanks very much. I am working on the basis they reject pretty much every initial representation.
Absolutely spot on, and also >95% of people then cough-up as well.
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I will indeed @Hippocrates, thanks very much. I am working on the basis they reject pretty much every initial representation.
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If and when they reject, come back and I will draft issues re the PCN too.
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Received a PCN from TfL for being in a bus lane on 25th Jan. (https://i.imgur.com/aWkGjTh.jpeg)
TfL's images available online are here and I have requested the video.
(https://i.imgur.com/ETjjieb.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lqdaS00.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XDOukUI.jpeg)
I did not realise there was a bus lane at all until I crossed the junction with Camden Street.
I submitted a representation yesterday morning before I found this site - my wording was as follows
I am writing to challenge PCN GX2209961A. I wish to contest it for the following reasons:
1) Advance warning of the bus lane – a blue sign in Camden Road just before Lyme Street is obscured by a Congestion Charge sign. Please see Image 1. I stood in the inside lane of the road to take this photo. I believe there should be adequate advance warning of the presence of a bus lane.
2) The inside lane becomes the bus lane immediately after the yellow box junction with traffic lights at Camden Street. The bus lane is so close to the exit of the junction that the dotted white line of the bus lane meets the yellow line of the box junction – please see Image 2. Therefore, motorists driving straight on at the junction are not permitted to exit the junction in the inside lane. However the arrow marker on the tarmac at the stop line at the junction indicates motorists may continue straight on – see Image 3 taken from Google Street. This is extremely confusing for motorists. The arrow indicates continuing straight on in the inside lane is permissible, but doing so results in a fine. I expect this catches out many motorists. I think it is reasonable to expect authorities to ensure signs and road markings are clear, unambiguous and not misleading.
3) At no point does the bus lane have the words “Bus Lane” written on the tarmac. Other bus lanes in the Camden area do.
I would therefore request the PCN be cancelled thereby avoiding further time and effort for both parties. If you do not cancel it, please send me a form so that I may refer the matter to London Tribunals.
Thank you.
The three images I refer to are:
Image 1 (https://i.imgur.com/swaP8ro.jpeg) - I took this one
Image 2 https://maps.app.goo.gl/SQW4aN6A3JcsdHCx7 from Google street, although I took a similar photo. The lines are still the same
Image 3 https://maps.app.goo.gl/DPf1zY8sKxUfWfRW6 - Google Street in Oct 2024 - the arrow I refer to is obscured by a vehicle in the latest Google map. The arrow is still there now
Other points I intend to raise at the formal rep/Tribunal stage when TfL knock the informal challenge back are:
1) The van in the images TfL made it hard to move out of the bus lane once I realised I'd entered it.
2) I had an operation on the 30th Jan - the day the notice was served (I have the admission/discharge letter). I did not go through my mail until last week. This left a very short period to put the informal representation together.
Thoughts/insights very welcome - wish I'd found the forum before I sent in my informal challenge.
Thanks to all.