Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Nik on February 10, 2025, 12:11:17 pm
-
Skeleton argument re 2250187549: basic nitty-gritty stuff.
1. In Evidence B the council states: The Council is satisfied that we have followed procedures for dealing with appeasl as set down in Schedule I of the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended)…..
2. The NOR states: The signage is lit from dusk till dawn and vehicle headlights further illuminate the signs and road markings. This statement is not corroborated by the video. Further, I put the council to strict proof that the sign to diagram 953 was illuminated on the day in question.
3. The photographs provided at Evidence H are of little evidential value.
4. I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the PCN as it is missing mandatory information as provided at Para. 4 (8 ) (v) of https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased
charge may be payable.
Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):
(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning
with the date of the notice;
Therefore, it follows that the statement: If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £195 may be payable. adds to the lack of clarity by its omission. Even on its own, whether the required information was included or not, it is also arguable that it conflates the two periods using the word "or" which many would view as being conjunctive. Furthermore, even if the statement were to be interpreted disjunctively, there is still no clarity due to the missing information.
In light of the above, I ask that the appeal be allowed.
-
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16p2guo-QH1bEAbcPNGoD0KbiQeBFW5hh/view).
-
Case won. ;D 2250187549 @Nik Well done for staying the course.
-
Appeal filed.
-
Not many contributors on here are so heroic as Mr Hippocrates, but two others need mentioning that do offer to act as representatives, Mr Mustard, and, of course, our esteemed administrator, CP8759. All of these charge no fees, so act as the lawyers say, pro bono, but may well ask for a charitable contribution after a win, or some travel expenses. However, you'd have to ask them. As most adjudications nowadays are phone or (at the TPT) videos as well, there is no travel.
Basically, like me, they are all completely fed up with the venality and rapacity of councils and Transport for London who are ruthlessly enforcing things that really have no traffic management benefit whatsoever, but they get the money rolling in. No doubt the heads of departments involved get substantial bonuses every year too. It's been like this since 1991, so I doubt it's going to be reformed any time soon.
The video hearings cost me a fortune in Nivea. :D
-
I'll PM you j
-
Hi @Hippocrates and @Incandescent. Hope you’re well. In case you hadn’t had a chance to see my update re my appeal rejection, I wondered if you could please give me your quick thoughts on this today, as I have until today to decide to pay the lesser amount or appeal further to take this to a hearing. Thank you in advance!!
-
Hi. Hope you’re well!
They rejected the appeal saying the signs were lit up and there are no legal obligations to have advanced warnings. See link below for letter sent:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Agp91Qu4dZz6keUYorjMzYFMIpuiOw
Firstly, the signs aren’t clear, as so many people obviously get caught out. Secondly, how do they expect you to reverse with following traffic without advance warning. Finally, it’s completely unreasonable to have to pay the higher amount if you appeal again and it is still rejected.
Please can you advise on this, and if I appeal, how best to complete the form re grounds of appeal - and what the chances of success are. Surely, if others have won appeals on this ground it sets legal precedent and they can’t simply uphold some appeals and reject others?
Many thanks in advance!
-
I had already filed the appeal on their website before seeing your reply, and so just selected I’m not the owner and gave my details which it accepted without asking further details. Incase they do ask, I have power of attorney for my dad.
-
Sounds like you enjoy it, good luck! Re your petition, there are quite few other examples of unfair situations. For example, motorists can receive a minimum of six points just for briefly touching their phones while stationary at traffic lights, and not even using it - based on loose camera evidence from passers by - while driving under the influence of drink/drugs and causing injury to another person carries a minimum of only three points, and police and truck drivers are still allowed to touch their radio controlled call devices. Seems like there’s a real lack of consistency and balance.
-
Today is my last day when I attend two hearings in person. The other two Musketeers are far more knowledgeable than I - even though I am the oldest! They give me the easy cases. :D
Won the first and the second has been reserved. Had a most pleasant chat with the Chief Adjudicator and one other afterwards. I may take the violin on Wednesday and play Auld Lang Syne, together with a doctor's note so I can attend all future hearings in person. A staggered cure for my agoraphobia.
Attended with the flyer re my petition printed on my T shirt and back of my jacket.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899
Plus the hat with the camera sign on it.
Poor mrmustard on Wednesday. His round.
-
The reg. keeper is liable so would need to authorise you to make reps. on his behalf. A simple pdf will do. Contravention did not occur.
parking.enforcement@harrow.gov.uk
-
Sounds like you’re being modest. Older the wiser I believe! I passed my car ownership to my dad, though he doesn’t drive now and no longer has a license. Does it matter if I say I’m appealing as the driver or as my dad (the owner and registered keeper)? For the reason of appeal, should I select the alleged contravention did not occur, or another option?
-
Today is my last day when I attend two hearings in person. The other two Musketeers are far more knowledgeable than I - even though I am the oldest! They give me the easy cases. :D
-
Sorry, my mistake, as I thought you referred to a file @Hippocrates. Sounds like a great purpose, and you’re doing a great job, so happy to sign any petition haha. I couldn’t agree with your points more @Incandescent. Thank you again to you both and keep up the great work!
-
Not many contributors on here are so heroic as Mr Hippocrates, but two others need mentioning that do offer to act as representatives, Mr Mustard, and, of course, our esteemed administrator, CP8759. All of these charge no fees, so act as the lawyers say, pro bono, but may well ask for a charitable contribution after a win, or some travel expenses. However, you'd have to ask them. As most adjudications nowadays are phone or (at the TPT) videos as well, there is no travel.
Basically, like me, they are all completely fed up with the venality and rapacity of councils and Transport for London who are ruthlessly enforcing things that really have no traffic management benefit whatsoever, but they get the money rolling in. No doubt the heads of departments involved get substantial bonuses every year too. It's been like this since 1991, so I doubt it's going to be reformed any time soon.
-
Okay, thanks. Is this your job and do you charge for this, or are you just a very nice person experienced with this and passionate about appealing PCNs? 😂 Presumably I don’t need you to represent me unless it goes to a hearing? It looks like you’re referring to an attachment but I can’t see this?
This is my purpose in life. Most people agree I am a nice person save for councils. Que attachment?
All I ask is for you to sign my petition. ;D
-
Okay, thanks. Is this your job and do you charge for this, or are you just a very nice person experienced with this and passionate about appealing PCNs? 😂 Presumably I don’t need you to represent me unless it goes to a hearing? It looks like you’re referring to an attachment but I can’t see this?
-
@Nik Better if I represent you as the appeal will be fairly technical, mostly to do with photographic evidence I suspect. In the last three cases their evidence in this respect was antediluvian and/or illegible to determine the dates. BTW: it is a bus gate not a bus lane.
I would not elaborate upon anything else: keep it short and simple and admit to nothing. My last client admitted he knew the restriction and had done it before and was very fortunate to win! I forgot the zip!
-
Thanks so much @Hippocrates!! I’ve read those cases and don’t completely understand all the points the adjudicator has written, but I’ll write your points in my appeal. Given some successful appeals have been allowed where drivers have said the signs were noticed too late to manoeuvre into the correct lane, is there any harm saying this or should I stick to the statement that the signs weren’t seen at all by me? That’s very kind of you to offer representing me. Please let me know the process for this, otherwise I’ll pursue this myself with your advice.
-
Thanks so much @Incandescent!! Your images show the advanced sign just highlights a width restriction and not a bus lane. The bus lane itself is so small that by the time you see it (if you see it) it’s too late to avoid it. Recent appeals allowed include it being dark and not adequate lit.
-
Dear Harrow
I make these formal representations against PCN....
1. I did not see any signage as it was inclement weather.
2. The video does not show any upright sign allegedly passed and does not prove the alleged cntravention.
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN
***********
We have won 3 out of 3 in the last 18 months. Be prepared for the long game and I am happy to represent you.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tvfF0CgEGSzUL-UFu-h7LDFgjL4R0-k6/view
And: 2240515018
And: https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1aXzA3M8jCbefIkv2Jfkbpbr6KYUV9vH5
-
Ah, yes, that notorious "hardy annual", Camrose Avenue !
Advance sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YwaLfLDF2H4q3WUz7
The lane allocations through this obstruction are not the usual ones, where the wide lane is in the middle and the narrow lanes are to left and right of it. So this may be the cause of confusion. The signs are all there and seem to be correct. However, this restriction has been here since 2008 (see GSV view), and I don't think there have been many wins over the years.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uGuCeRJmLQTPS3AL8
You could try looking at the London Tribunals statutory register to see what successful appeals there have been.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
A total of 153 successful appeals since 1st Jan 2008. This one, 2100022073, wins on bad weather and inadequate camera evidence.
-
Hi, I recently got a PCN after picking up my disabled father from family in an unfamiliar area. Apparently this road has been flagged by the BBC as being a hotspot for PCNs (£1.8m per year just from this road!) and the signage must be very unclear since lots of drivers in front and behind me were using the bus lane too and hadn’t realised. Looking at the google images, the signs are so close to the actual bus lane, that by the time you see it it’s likely too late to spot it, hence why the BBC article says some drivers have resorted to reverse traffic when they have realised, which is obviously dangerous. Also, on the night in question when the weather was bad, unless the sign is adequately lit it’s almost impossible to notice this. Can you please help to avoid this PCN. Thanks in advance!! Please see evidence below, and let me know if you need any further information.
PCN: https://share.icloud.com/photos/025lS7Cj06WdOVn8T80EnPdDg
PCN video:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b0WVM1nWTmunkKpgyYLw-7bQ
Location:
51.60185 -0.28791
Photo:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b1ui0jePnTsjvE4Nh_U67pmQ