Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Anaf326 on February 10, 2025, 10:59:25 am
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They have re-offered the discount.
I cannot see a defence against the contravention worth risking the discount, perhaps others might find there's a procedural error which would make the risk worthwhile?
The warning sign isn't a regulatory requirement and in these circumstances is of limited effect because even if you had seen it it would simply have brought to your attention a PZ an indeterminate distance ahead regarding which you would have had to be alert..but no more alert than a motorist should be anyway to regulatory signs. Yes, it's on the RHS of the road, but it's in clear view from some distance away. Yes, it would have been inconvenient to have to have stopped before the sign and turned round, but inconvenience is not a defence.
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@Anaf326 I have merged the threads, please do not start new threads for the same case.
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Normal protocol for this forum is that you keep to a single thread. Why have you started another one ? Please ask a moderator to get this moved to your other thread.
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Well, as expected, I received a rejection of representation from Medway Council.
No comment about the poor visibility of the warning signal when turning left onto the road, and they admit the information about the school streets scheme is on their website, though they don't comment on the fact that the info is partially incorrect (maps shows 2 signs, in reality there is only one).
Feels like they didn't really read my response.
Any way, think I have any chance on the tribunal or should I just pay it?
See previous post here: 53J - restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone - Medway council (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/medway-code-53j-restriction-on-vehicles-entering-a-pedestrian-zone-richmond-road/msg59821/#msg59821)
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Deemed date of service: third working day? Que?
I assume they mean I have 28 days to pay after the PCN has been "served" (3 working days after the date on the letter) unless I can prove I didn't receive it in time; but how do you prove a negative!?
Anyway, any ideas? My draft representations are as follows:
Dear Council
I make this formal representation against PCN :
The contravention did not occur as you have failed to carry out your responsibilities under LATOR Regulation 18 to erect adequate the signage to convey restrictions in a Traffic Regulation Order as:
1. The warning sign is not clearly visible when turning left from Saunders street into Richmond Road;
2.The restricted zone sign on Richmond Road is only present on the right hand side of the street when driving northbound and at very high level, despite all other sign on this road being either on both sides of the road or only on the side of ongoing traffic(left side), including the two signs when entering the restricted area while traveling southbound;
3. The signage for the restriction also directly contradicts the councils plan for the scheme where it it shows this area as having two signs, one on each side of the road, when entering southbound and northbound.
In light of the above, please cancel the said PCN.
Yours faithfully
Reg. keeper
Address
Also different dates for the 50% discount on the website? they say 14 days but my letter says 21 days, and they when following the links to appeal they again ask for payment with a smaller link at the bottom to continue o to the appeal page.
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Deemed date of service: third working day? Que?
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Thanks for the photo of the restriction sign.
Essentially, it is now a matter of submitting representations on the basis of inadequate signage under their LATOR Regulation 18 duty and also point out the sign provision does not even match their plan, plus the very poor positioning of the advance warning sign and also the single sign at the restriction point, (very high up and on the right). They will refuse of course, as they know >95% of PCN recipients then cough-up. You then have to decide whether to take them to London Tribunals on the basis of inadequate signage. Of course this means you have to risk paying the full PCN penalty, (or pay nothing if you win, of course).
This is one of those cases that could go either way, it is not a slam-dunk win for you in my opinion, but see what the others say.
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Hi, I managed to go back and get some more pictures, including the a clear image of the restricted area sign (because it was earlier in the day and sunny it looks like there is light shinning on it, which doesn't help...).
I also checked on google maps and at the other end of the road, coming from the opposite direction, there are 2 signs as indicated in the councils original plan.
google maps (https://maps.app.goo.gl/6KEyBPgkVw9YaqeB7)
more images (https://imgur.com/a/more-richmond-road-ly6DoAg)
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We need a closer photo of the restriction signs, but I zoomed in on the long view, and it is not just a single sign. but has been placed on the offside of the road, which is bad practice. The council plan shows two signs, which therefore indicates what they considered as adequate under their LATOR Regulation 18 duty. So you can argue that the signage is not adequate. Of course they will reject this argument, so if you wanted to take them all the way, you would have to take them to London Tribunals once they have rejected your reps. Your reps therefore need to include the actual signs installed against their plans to demonstrate inadequate signage. This plus the poor placement of the advance sign.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
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No reason, I don't have children or even live nearby, I genuinely didn't see the "Flying motorbike" sign and I was in an unfamiliar area for a meeting (the GPS made do it >:( ).
I think you are right on the advanced sign visibility and the impossibility of turning around without incurring another PCN for driving on to a no entry road. I think even if I had seen the sign I wouldn't have been able to turn around properly.
Do you happen to have any legalese on the wording to appeal the PCN?
I also found this information on the medway website and I think they were planning to have 2 signs, one on each side of the road but only put up one?
(https://www.medway.gov.uk/images/Burnt_Oak_Primary_School__Gillingham____School_Street_route.jpg)
thanks
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The advance warning sign is not very well placed, but not as badly as to win an adjudication, in my view : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/THsK7ixEQz4zHBgo6
The problem you have is that your approach to the actual restriction signs is head on, so they are visible as you approach. So any reason for passing them ? These "Flying Motorbike" signs are in use all over London to control street restrictions near schools and also for Low Traffic Neighbourhoods.
If you see the signs and want to turn round, the obvious place to turn into is the No Entry street where they would no doubt wallop you for passing the signs !
I think your reps need to focus on two things, (1) the advance sign placement, and (2) the almost impossibility of turning round with the obvious street to use being No Entry.
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Good morning everyone, I received a PCN from Medway for driving on a pedestrian zone (new school streets scheme) during the designated hours.
On Thursday, the 29th, I was traveling down Saunders street and made a left turn into Richmond road, Gillingham, further down Richmond road there is a school zone restriction in place during school drop off times.
My only warning sign prior to the restriction area was behind the give way sign on Saunders street/Richmond road intersection, after this the sign where the zone starts is on the right side of the road on the two way street just after the intersection with another road with a no entry sign.
I entered the restricted area at 15h41 and the restriction was in place until 15h45.
Can I appeal this based on poor signage (warning hidden behind give way sign at junction, restricted area sign on right side of road only), no way to avoid restricted zone unless turning back ( no entry sign on chatsworth road) or clock malfuction /being close to end of restriction times?
I know these might be a stretch but I don't drive around this area and didn't see the sign, the school street scheme is fairly recent as well and the signs could probably be made more visible with flashing amber lights during restriction hours like the school signs.
Any help is appreciated.
PCN
PCN1 (https://imgur.com/qJft9Xu)
PCN2 (https://imgur.com/fqPnh6U)
PCN3 (https://imgur.com/p9OdPWU)
PCN4 (https://imgur.com/bdHlU4c)
Evidence
EV 1 (https://imgur.com/38K9tGX)
EV 2 (https://imgur.com/CT8ZEpT)
EV 3 (https://imgur.com/rlnSgIy)
EV 4 (https://imgur.com/9RbGP9U)
Left turn onto richmond road
Left turn richmond road (https://imgur.com/vHQx79M)
Richmond road where pedestrian zone starts
richmond road (https://imgur.com/7KfR2zs)
richmond road 2 (https://imgur.com/ZNxsj0j)
GSV Links (the street view is outdated, new signs went up in 2024)
google maps left turn (https://maps.app.goo.gl/8EfgRdshFSGMJUY67)
google maps richmond road (https://maps.app.goo.gl/f2qmwUJFr8tJRc2f7)
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