Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Raz on September 07, 2023, 08:20:43 pm
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The council has finally confirmed that the camera at this location is a Roadflow Fusion device, and according to https://www.sea.co.uk/news/sea-to-launch-roadflow-fusion-at-parkex-2019 this type of camera was only launched in 2019.
Problem is, the council's only approval certificates date from 2014 and before...
Also for future reference, here's the Walsall Metropolitan (Bridge Street (Upper), Walsall) (Experimental Bus Only Street) Order, Amendment 1, 2022 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1Zy6_-LcNuz7PnFkOveHrTRqKH3_LIkpl).
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They have acted reasonably and not forced you to adjudication.
Well done !
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If you could show us your representations and the council's response, that could help others in the future.
Hi All
Sorry was away for a while.
My response was as follows:
"I am well aware of the restrictions in place at this location.
The street signs at this location state the restrictions are in force from 11pm-5am.
The time on my car clock at the time you say I contravened was 10.59pm.
Therefore, I believe this contravention did not occur.
However, after reviewing the video evidence I can see the clock on the CCTV states I contravened at 23:01.
I do not know the accuracy of the clock on the CCTV but would imagine is precise.
I feel that this PCN is a little unfair on the basis that not everyone's clock is accurate and calibrated to the exact second. Given that this contravention is within 60 odd seconds after being live, I am appealing this PCN for reconsideration.
Thank you"
Councils response:
Thank you for writing to us and explaining the circumstances.
Although your Penalty Charge Notice was correctly given, we have cancelled it on this occasion.
We sent you a Penalty Charge Notice because our camera evidence shows your vehicle was seen travelling through a bus lane which is restricted during the hours of 11:00pm- 5:00am allowing bicycles, buses and taxis only during these hours. The restriction runs from its junction with Lichfield Street to its junction with Goodall Street in both directions.
There are signs in place on the approach to the Bus Lane which are in place to make the driver aware that they are approaching a Bus Lane.
If you receive any further Penalty Charge Notices in similar circumstances, we may not be able to cancel it.
Hope this helps you guys out if you ever fall in a similar situation
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If you could show us your representations and the council's response, that could help others in the future.
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Morning All.
Just to let you know i contacted the council and appealed the contravention.
I sent them an email based on timing and stated my clock showed 10.59.
And that the contravention based on their cctv timing is within 60 odd seconds of the bus gate being live and not everyones clocks are calibrated within seconds.
Thankfully they have contacted me that they have decided not to charge me on this occasion!!
I thank you all for you advice and assistance on this matter
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The bus gate is here (https://goo.gl/maps/my1pV4ztLNWZpj5n8).
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcx_rE5Rps
Your car appears in the footage at 11:01:02.786 so depending on the extent of the bus gate, you might have been in the bus gate at 11:00 but not at 11:01, in which case the contravention alleged did not occur. I am also not convinced the bus gate is on Bridge End at all, it might well be on Lichfield Street, so I'll get the traffic regulation order.
Lastly I'll confirm the make and model of the CCTV camera, as they might not have a certificate for it.
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Nowt up with your age, i too remember one for a bus lane. but my files are all to ****. My age you know
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got this one re timing 218015398A...........
That says much the same...ta
The one I was thinking of was a bus lane but similr wording...or it could be my memory...my age ya know.
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Thank you very much for your response guys. Much appreciated.
I have appealed to the council. lets see what they come back with, most likely they will not retract and will need to appeal to an adjudicator.
Will update you guys on the process
thanks
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got this one re timing 218015398A
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm on 8 March 2018.
I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary School. They also show that there is a sign at the location warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.
Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.
I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention did not occur. There must be some application of common sense. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time calculated to the exact second.
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Thanks for the extra pages.
They do fail in the wording of how to view the video by saying they will provide a place and time while the regulations say that you can stipulate.
TBH, I'm not sure that alone is enough as many adjudicators accept that putting the video online is sufficient to honour that clause.
At the moment I reckon that a challenge based on de minimus (too trivial to bother with) considering the intrusion was right on the dot and according to your clock, you entered when legal to do so.
There is at least one bus lane case (which someone will have a copy of) in similar circumstances where the adjudicator basically said that there is no expectation that the average driver will use a clock that is accurate to the nth degree
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Hi
Sorry about that. Have now attached picture of sign below.
Also i am not sure if this holds any value at all.
But i found the following page describing that this section of bus lane was setup as an experimental Excersice.
https://go.walsall.gov.uk/newsroom/experimental-traffic-restriction-bridge-street-walsall
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Cant see the picture of the sign please repost
https://parking.walsall.gov.uk/penaltychargenotice/GetVideo.aspx?000114rNZE%2b63MdhFA3UivDo6qOfKhqO%2fYrQ7hnk4n8YD6%2bqMjfnRlTk8GBeKJvlGoOe%2fmy9YEbKHNUOt3MoctqN0SsQ%3d%3d.mp4
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Have a read here : -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-enforcement-outside-london/traffic-management-act-2004-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities-outside-london-on-civil-enforcement-of-bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-contravention
From
Challenges, representations and appeals
Local authorities should formulate their policies on discretion with advice from their legal department and should publish them. They should apply these policies flexibly and judge each case on its merits. A local authority should be ready to depart from its policies if the particular circumstances of the case warrant it.
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Last page
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Hi. Thanks for your reply.
I viewed the pcn evidence here:
https://parking.walsall.gov.uk/penaltychargenotice/
Sorry there were 2 more pages with the pcn. Have now attached
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Is that all the PCN?
Two sides?
How did you view the CCTV, where did you find the info on the PCN?
I'm looking for wording to this effect but not seeing it?
"(3) The recipient (“R”) of an approved device notice may, by notice in writing, request that the enforcement authority—
(a)makes available, at one of its offices specified by R, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by R or R’s representative the record of the alleged relevant road traffic contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed, or
(b)provides R, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the alleged relevant road traffic contravention.
(4) The enforcement authority must comply with any request under paragraph (3) within a reasonable time."
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Reverse
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Hi All
I have recently received a fine from Walsall council.
Location: Bridge street
Contravention: 34J being in a bus lane
According to street signs the bus lane is active from 11pm - 5am (have attached a picture)
The time they have me going through the lane is @ 23:01.
To be precise, after reviewing the cctv footage, i entered the lane and come into the cctv view at 23:01:03 and exit the cctv view at 23:01:08
I am pretty certain my clock was before 11 but obviously cannot be sure as i have no dashcam etc.
Do i have a leg to stand on here to appeal this due to possible difference in timing?
Thanks in advance
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