Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Andu_Alex on February 06, 2025, 01:02:50 pm
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According to the Authority ‘Alnwick Road is part of the Custom House (CMH) Residential parking zone and the time plate states: Monday – Saturday 8am-6:30pm Permit holders CMH parking only.’
This is simply not true - the zone is a CPZ and the entry signs say controlled zone with the code CMH. I don't understand why they took out the PPA mini-zones for this estate as Newham is very fond of PPAs but they did and the result is a failure to sign the CPZ in all locations. Maybe someone in Newham thinks the PPA signs are still there.
The adjudicator is Martin Hoare who I think didn't fully appreciate what is going on here - Jack Walsh's decision in the other case is to the point.
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Case 2250106627
Mr Dishman represented Mr Stupu at this appeal hearing. The Authority did not attend and was not represented.
Mr Dishman relied on his written grounds which included:
‘The TMO does not create a parking restriction at the location in question, whether for residents or at all. The TMO does not create a Restricted Parking Zone / past this point zone. The PCN is for the wrong alleged contravention.’
The alleged contravention is ‘12 - Parked resident/shared use without a valid permit’ on Alnwick Road.
The civil enforcement officer’s photographs establish that on 14 January 2025, this car was parked in a bay, before being removed by its agent’s vehicle.
According to the Authority ‘Alnwick Road is part of the Custom House (CMH) Residential parking zone and the time plate states: Monday – Saturday 8am-6:30pm Permit holders CMH parking only.’
The Authority provided no contemporaneous photographic evidence to establish the presence of signage near the vehicle. Although the Authority has submitted that the vehicle was parked within a parking zone whereby adequate entry point signs might obviate the need for additional signs within the zone, it provided no photographic evidence that there was any such signage was in place.
The Authority evidence does not establish that the signage was adequate, so as to indicate and thus lawfully enforce this restriction.
The Authority did not provide a plan which plots the location within the area indicated in the Order. Schedule 1 of the Order provides that certain parts of Alnwick Road fall within the zone, though neither the officer’s notes nor any other evidence, establishes that the car was in a location within Alnwick Road which was subject to the Order.
The appeal is allowed.
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Hearing took about 10 minutes. My skeleton argument was praised for bringing clarity to the situation. The council failed to prove the restriction and signage and a full refund will be ordered.
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If you send me an email (mrmustard@zoho.com) I will ask for the OP's permission to send you a copy of the pack.
I no longer apply for costs because the Appellant doesn't incur any when represented by me for a charity donation alone.
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What is Newham's evidence - if it's the same as the case above I posted a costs award must surely be made.
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Alex - please look at the email I sent you with a draft witness statement.
For the update of followers: Appeal started 28 Feb, councikl evidence dated 10 April, video hearing 7 May. Skeleton and witness statement prepared for signing and filing.
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Here's a tow case that is very similar.
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Case reference 2240575122
Appellant Razwan Razaq
Authority London Borough of Newham
VRM WM66MRY
PCN Details
PCN PN21061442
Contravention date 20 Nov 2024
Contravention time 09:56:00
Contravention location First Avenue
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Parked resident/shared use without a valid permit
Referral date -
Decision Date 29 Mar 2025
Adjudicator Jack Walsh
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund forthwith the penalty charge and the release fees paid.
Reasons The PCN in this case was not issued for parking on a restricted street during the prescribed hours. Rather, it was issued for parking in a residents' or shared use bay without a valid permit. That is because the vehicle was not parked on part of the road marked with a single or double yellow line but was, instead, parked in a parking bay.
Mr. Razaq makes the point that there were no signs in the vicinity of the parking bay indicating what, if any, restrictions applied in that bay. The enforcement authority (EA) has provided no evidence of any signage indicating that the bay in question was indeed a residents'/shared use parking place.
Instead, the EA has provided a single photograph of what is known as a controlled parking zone (CPZ) entrance sign, which is to be found at item 1 of the Part 3 sign table in Schedule 5 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. The sign appears to be on a street called Balaam Street, which is a street not shown in the map provided by the EA. This photograph does not assist the EA's case one bit, however. A CPZ entrance sign informs motorists of the prescribed hours of the restricted streets, marked with single yellow lines, within the CPZ to which it applies. It is not the appropriate sign to inform motorists of parking restrictions in parking bays. Indeed, the sign shown in the photograph says nothing about any requirement to possess or display a parking permit when parking in bays.
If the EA wished to create a permit parking area (and not a CPZ) the appropriate sign is that at item 5 of the Part 3 sign table. But that is not the sign that was used. The EA's case summary and notice of rejection indicate a confusion on its part between a CPZ and a permit parking area. They are in fact quite distinct and require different signage. It is surprising that the EA seems to be confused about such a fundamental distinction in terms of parking restrictions.
Mr. Razaq is correct to say there is no evidence of any signage informing motorists of the restrictions, if any, applicable to the parking bay in which his vehicle was parked. He made that point very clearly in his representations against the PCN and the fee for the removal and recovery of his vehicle. Those representations should have been accepted. The contravention is not proved and the appeal is allowed.
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The OP and are are now in touch.
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@mrmustard , the email can't be sent to the email adress you sent me, it said is invalid email adress.
My email adress is ina_tonita@yahoo.co.uk
Could you kindly send me a line so i can reach you please.
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There was a rogue space in the email address
mrmustard@zoho.com is correct
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@mrmustard ,
Thank you so much sir, I've just emailed you the letter.
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@stamfordman , nothing surprises me with newham council anymore. It is by far number one in given fines. :(
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@Neil B , thank you so much for all your help and best of luck with surgery. Hope you will be fine really soon.
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The signs aren't vandalised - they turned these parts of the estate into a CPZ from PPAs and failed to put in yellow lines, bays and bay signs in keeping with a CPZ. They've victimised the OP as though it is all in order.
Both rejections are tantamount to public malfeasance in my view. I'll be surprised if they dare to contest this.
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Here I am. I have history with Newham and vandalised signs. Please email the complete Notice of Rejection letter ( nothing hidden, I don't need the form) to mrmustard@ zoho.com
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I'll help you prepare the appeal but hopefully someone will offer to represent you.
Current thinking is that you only need to register an appeal (do it online as it helps you keep track of it) Always ask for a peronal hearing, NOT a postal decision.
Just say 'I rely on my formal representations and any other matters that may arise'.
Then we just sit back and wait to see if they contest. If they do their case summary normally provides some extra ammunition.
If they contest and you don't feel prepared you can always ask for a postponement.
It's very unlikely I'll be available as I have imminent major surgery coming up.
You might message cp8759 or Mr Mustard to see if either have space to help.
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what they mean by 'important information about the case cannot be retrieved' looks like nonsense.
We've seen it before, recently, for another case they couldn't possibly win.
It raises questions that indeed should be asked.
I've just seen it again, in a thread by 'never paying', first page on here.
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I'll help you prepare the appeal but hopefully someone will offer to represent you.
Seems to me by accepting one the other falls anyway although what they mean by 'important information about the case cannot be retrieved' looks like nonsense. But the rejection of the tow PCN opens them up to costs in my view.
(https://i.ibb.co/cSBSPLMx/Messenger-creation-F1159559-E579-4-B91-9564-15-D7-D06055-F4.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xq52hSh/Messenger-creation-54347147-4-C97-452-C-BFF0-4-C9-E01-D37-E1-D.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/MD5003Gy/Messenger-creation-0-F205-C15-CD7-C-47-E6-8-FAC-1-C9-B9287486-B.jpg)
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@stamfordman , at the moment I park at my mother in law, there are no signs even today, and never where since I've moved there.
But anyway, I was able to make resident resident parking, I'm guessing that I will be fined again most certainly.
They didn't warn me, even the cancelled PCN I didn't find it on my car, just recived the letter in post. I was unaware of that.
I live in a council estate next to a school and I suspect maybe children played a joke and removed it from the car. They have a gathering spot very near the parking lots.
Dare to ask, please, anyone aviable to help me further with the outstanding tow tribunal hearing thing?
Thank you.
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Those letters are a joke and deserving of a complaint. Hard to believe they are admitting to acting before putting up signage. They say they warned you about missing/vandalised signs (did they?) - fair enough but they've not put the signs up!
The accepted one makes no sense.
First you'll need to register a tribunal hearing for the outstanding PCN and tow.
Where are you parking now - they will put signs up and tow you again if you're not careful. Are they offering permits?
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Hello everyone! Here I'm again with the response from the council. As someone here suspected one PCN was cancelled and the other one not. The one with car impounded was not. I will attach their response.
Really grateful for any suggestions for next steps.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thank you all so much for your help, I will make the representation today and fingers crossed I will avoid court and waste time.
As per your advice will make separate representations.
All the best!
The tribunal, if we have to go that far, is NOT a court and certainly not something to be feared.
If you get rejections then just make sure to show them here before taking any action. If anyone here offers to represent you they may prefer to register the case(s) at tribunal themselves.
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Thank you all so much for your help, I will make the representation today and fingers crossed I will avoid court and waste time.
As per your advice will make separate representations.
All the best!
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Looks OK to me.
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1) Making reps online presumably has to be done against each PCN? Cross reference the responses or wait till Tribunal?
2) Save the references to Newham's own website guidance (see my Reply#12 on page 1 above) for the Tribunal?
I would make reps for each to be on the safe side.
There are parking bays and signs on the main part of Alynwick Road as per the CPZ (Newham calls them resident parking zones but they are CPZs).
What's happened is that the estate parts of the road were covered by permit parking areas and then they took these out leaving only patchy or no signage and now seem to think they are properly covered by the CPZ.
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1) Making reps online presumably has to be done against each PCN? Cross reference the responses or wait till Tribunal?
2) Save the references to Newham's own website guidance (see my Reply#12 on page 1 above) for the Tribunal?
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I've just been looking at this. Reps can be made for the PCN resulting in the tow using the informal challenge page on Newham's site so doesn't need a web code.
Newham will probably reject both and I can't at this stage think of much to say in reps.
Anyone else?
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PCN/tow PN21618804
I am making representations against the PCN on two grounds.
1. The contravention did not occur. There are no parking signs in the area of the estate where I regularly park. There is nothing indicating anything other than unrestricted parking.
2. Procedural impropriety. On release of my car at the pound I was not given information about my right to make representations to the enforcement authority under section 11 (2) of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
On either of these grounds the PCN must be cancelled and the money paid for the PCN and removal refunded.
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NTO PN21437184
The contravention did not occur. There are no parking signs in the area of the estate where I regularly park. There is nothing indicating anything other than unrestricted parking.
I look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation of this PCN.
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I've not read back to see the date of the other one with an NtO
@Neil B
NtO issued 20th Jan.
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John has correctly identified you deadline for reps for the removed vehicle, 11th Feb, so we have the weekend to play with.
I've not read back to see the date of the other one with an NtO
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The relevant regulation re what I'm referring to is 11 (2) of the reps and appeals regs, here >
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/part/4
Do you understand? You have told us that you have not been so advised by Newham.
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Ok.
It wasn't immediately clear that you needed someone to help with it but I see now.
I'm at hospital today so I hope Stamfordman or others can help you
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@Neil B , i have previously had my car removed by them and I've recived exactly the same papers, no any other information either. But at that time they where right becouse i didn't pay for my parking in time ( stopped to drop off my wife at maternity ward for admission ) been in rush and forgot to make parking . So i didn't make any representations, accepted my fault.
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@Neil B , I'm not familiar with proper terms and thought that are the same, appeal and the other one.
They didn't give me any kind of information, I've asked them but they didn't seem to be cooperative or willing to help, dismissive is proper word for their behaviour.
They have cameras there in the office and certainly they can look at recordings to confirm.
The only thing that holds me at the moment in order to send my email to newham is that I don't know haw to make it properly and don't whant to blow my chances away.
Last night @stamfordman told me that he will try to do something for me today. If he will have some time maybe he will send me.
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Indeed there is little time left to submit the appeal.
You are at representations stage, not 'appeal' and you need to get those reps done. What is the hold up?
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@Neil B
Irrespective of other valid matters raised there is a majpr issue regarding the removed vehicle >
That is, that they appear to have failed to advise you of your right to make representations and the period in which you may do so.
This wins on that point alone.
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@Incandescent, hopefully i will get my money back. With Newham Council one never knows.
Indeed there is little time left to submit the appeal.
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Havinng paid the removal fee etc, it is a total no-brainer to take the council to London Tribunals where I would expect the appeal to succeed. This is totally risk free, because all the money to be paid has been paid and there are no additional costs to pay at London Tribunals.
However first the OP has to submit reps to the council and get rejected before an appeal to LT can even be registered, and there is a time limit for this. So this needs to be top of one's mind when considering the content of the representations.
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@John U.K here is the PCN back.
Thank you as well for your time
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@Andu_Alex And the back of the PCN?
@stamfordman
He will be making reps against (1) the first PCN/NtO and (2) the second PCN and against the subsequent removal. A question arises in my mind as to whether (the reps against the PCN being substantially the same) he should ask for the 2 PCNs to be considered together, or submit separately in the hope they may be dealt with by different minions who reach different conclusions about identical reps.
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@stamfordman on the back of one of the paper there is some info about data protection act and the other one is empty.
This is all front and back recived from the office when I've collected my car.
I was told that i have to pay in full in order to collect my car. I've also asked where I can complain and was told to try council.
Nothing else recived in hand or thru post
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@Neil B
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@Neil B , please see attached picture
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Yes check all sides of everything given at pound.
I'll try and do something for you tomorrow.
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That is all I've recived at the time I've colected my car. No other correspondence or any other papers.
Nothing on the back of those then?
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@stamfordman , there are no signs on Alnwick Road. Definitely there are signs on the neighbourhood streets, but none on Alnwick.
I'm in great need of help with my appeal letter draft/ template propper wording for this PCN s , and your help in greatly appreciated.
I'm sure that by myself I don't stand any chance.
Plese help me.
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Yes I posted that pic but a PPA entrance needs only one sign.
They seem to have some signs in other parts of the estate:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5121044,0.0365266,3a,48.9y,48.19h,84.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shAzClSLEX6bznjGvmoGqmg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.972492209095279%26panoid%3DhAzClSLEX6bznjGvmoGqmg%26yaw%3D48.190130831701936!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
But if there's nothing in your bit we can help you challenge both PCNs and get your money back.
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Here is a immage from the council, if the post with the signs where present there was the exact spot. Just behind the red car . But there is nothing.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@stamfordman , finally figured out how to respond directly to you.
No, absolutely sure, there are NO signs at the entrance of the road, or anywhere on the road.
The picture attached to your response is the actual road entrance and it was taken yesterday. I've just arrived home and it is exactly like yesterday and exactly like it always was . At the moment there is not even the metal posts, you can see the markings on the pavement, i belive it was there but long, long time ago probably.
Plese see the picture, and of course thank you for your time.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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So to be certain there isn't one of these signs at the start of your section of road:
https://i.imgur.com/OjcrSjb.png
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Yes, it is right. No parking signs anywhere on that street. That's why i don't understand the matter and I'm asking here maybe there is something that I'm missing.
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Pics from the other PCN. Again no parking signs.
(https://i.ibb.co/sd9Dp0fz/n2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/qMWtCrqj/n1.jpg)
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No other paper, advice given given at then ,,try council " after asking couple of times.
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Have you posted everything you were given at the pound?
The other PCN is at NTO stage and in time for representations.
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I didn't notice anything in the post to be honest. The house was under refurbishment for couple of months and before me there lived an elderly lady that was bed bound. This in this attais not payed yet.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Date of release from pound 15th January - I make deadline for reps 11th Feb?
@Andu_Alex you should have received from the pound a guide to making reps. If you didn't, that's another thing against the Council
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It's Newham. Nuff said !
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My guess is they abandoned the PPAs and wanted to make it all a CPZ, but to do that all kerbsides must be marked with yellow lines and signed parking bays. If there are no signed parking bays where the OP got a code 12 then I can't see a contravention occurred. Either that or it's a signless PPA.
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I think the case here is very strong, and as the OP has already paid all there is to pay, having had the car towed away, he can take them all the way to London Tribunals with no risk whatsoever, and should get all the money back.
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Before you leave your car parked, please check the parking signs on the road in which you parked to ensure that there is no change in the status of the parking bay. (my underline)
That is from
https://www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits/resident-parking-zones/1
where it says that the restricted hours for Custom House are 'Monday to Saturday, 8am - 6.30pm'
This site
https://www.newham.gov.uk/homepage/109/resident-parking-zones-rpz
says
The controlled parking restrictions and times of operation will clearly be stated on signs within the zone. Please ensure you check these before you park. Please also make sure that you are not parked in a specific bay i.e. car club bay, doctors bay, disabled bay, or on single/double yellow lines.
(my bold and underline)
I may have missed something, but the signs at the border say CPZ, not RPZ.
There are, as the OP says, no signs where he parked and no relevant signs on the main length of Alnwick Road, thus he has complied with the necessary checks given on the website.
I feel that he has a strong case - what do others think?
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EDIT
Any appeal suggestion or anything please?
You say you've lived threr for two years - anything though letterbox about change to RPZ?
just recived letter through post and it was too late for discount fee
IMPORTANT - if you have not paid this please show us the letter through the post (only redact yr name and address) - it should be called Notice to Owner (NtO)
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There are no signs on the street since I've moved there, that's way I'm confused.
Obviously at the moment I'm not parking there anymore, but is there anything that I can do in regards of this? Any appeal suggestion or anything please?
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@stamfordman
At this entrance to the estate there are two poles
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6CvSxSC79QGntk7P6
Perhaps the Council think they carry signs?
Yes I noticed those - they've been there for a while with no signs. I think they're going to lose this if signs still not there.
There were as I suspected PPA signs:
(https://i.imgur.com/OjcrSjb.png)
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The posts are no there anymore.
This picture is taken yesterday exactly the same place.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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100% pozitive that there is absolutely no sign on the street.
Just to be fair, i have recived in the past PCN gir other reasons and becouse it was clear that was my fault I've payed them.
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@stamfordman
At this entrance to the estate there are two poles
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6CvSxSC79QGntk7P6
Perhaps the Council think they carry signs?
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The sign is couple of streets away, could that be reasonable?
I've seen it, but was thinking that doesn't apply to my street as well becouse is too far, the street has another name.
What sign?
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The sign is couple of streets away, could that be reasonable?
I've seen it, but was thinking that doesn't apply to my street as well becouse is too far, the street has another name.
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It's in a controlled zone but Newham also uses permit parking areas where there is a sign at the entrance of a short dead end saying no parking beyond this point. Nothing in the pics.
Are you sure there isn't a sign at the entrance to the road? No parking signs at all in the road? No signed bays?
(https://i.ibb.co/R4MG6N4H/new1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/01BskKL/new2.jpg)
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Here is one sign on the A112 driving from the north.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FYojcFVvkx3kiz1s5
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That is all I've recived at the time I've colected my car. No other correspondence or any other papers.
Zone is CMH , no road signs anywhere on the street, left -right , begging or end.
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Hello everyone,
I'm in need of help and advice from someone with more knowledge than myself please, if possible.
Short story so i don't waste your time, moved on Alnwick Road 2 years ago, all good till recently when I've recived 2 PCN . For the first one i was not aware, didn't see the ticket on car window ( honestly) just recived letter through post and it was too late for discount fee.
Please show us this letter (only redact yr name & address).
Days before reciving the letter for PCN I've parked again on the same street, this time I've recived a PCN and my car was impounded as well.
On the street there are no trafic signs in regards of parking and even on council evidence there are none.
Do I have any grounds for an appeal as i was not aware of the restrictions? Even today, still no sign whatsoever.
I had to take my car out and pay the fees because is my work car and my work tools where inside (no money to buy new ones) .
There are any regulations that I'm missing and the PCN are rightfully recived, English is not my first language and I'm considering this probability as well.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aXxVpx2i6SwLMcMu9?g_st=afm
Thank you so much for reading my post.
Please post all the docs you received at the pound.
You seem to be in this zone
https://lbnewham.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=6c213298647e4283a537266c72c1d086
not entirely clear if this is a CPZ or RPZ
There will be signs like this at wherever you crossed the line into the zone.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mQccZpFJMSArY7kq9
But there seem to be no single yellow line where you parked - are there any Council photos online?
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Hello everyone,
I'm in need of help and advice from someone with more knowledge than myself please, if possible.
Short story so i don't waste your time, moved on Alnwick Road 2 years ago, all good till recently when I've recived 2 PCN . For the first one i was not aware, didn't see the ticket on car window ( honestly) just recived letter through post and it was too late for discount fee.
Days before reciving the letter for PCN I've parked again on the same street, this time I've recived a PCN and my car was impounded as well.
On the street there are no trafic signs in regards of parking and even on council evidence there are none.
Do I have any grounds for an appeal as i was not aware of the restrictions? Even today, still no sign whatsoever.
I had to take my car out and pay the fees because is my work car and my work tools where inside (no money to buy new ones) .
There are any regulations that I'm missing and the PCN are rightfully recived, English is not my first language and I'm considering this probability as well.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aXxVpx2i6SwLMcMu9?g_st=afm
Thank you so much for reading my post.
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