Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Wajeh63 on February 05, 2025, 04:36:31 pm
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So, Best option for me here is to wait untill 13th day and If no response came from Council(as it's likely).
I'll simply pay the Discounted fine and get rid of issue. Otherwise, it's gonna be long wait and argument with Council and Tribunal and in the end if they Reject my appeal. Still need to pay double fine.
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my two peneth,
collating the council pic with the gsv
I would suggest that unless the OP urned around the idland and subsequently reversed back up the road, he clearly did pass the sign and likely performed a 3 point/u in the entrances directly in front of the cameras.
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Whether by mistake or not is not the issue. You entered the CAZ, this is strict liability and they may hold you liable. As shown in the photos you fully passed the signs which are situated at the start of the road. Unless the authority's video shows that you turned immediately after entering the CAZ then you have no objective evidence to support your claim.
They might exercise discretion, but if not then IMO you should think whether to risk the discount by going to tribunal on this point.
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I accidentally took the wrong exit and turned into Frank Street, by mistake. Realizing it's CAZ , I didn’t drive further into the zone. Instead, I immediately made a U-turn at the triangular island and rejoined my original route.
Do you think this is a strong argument to appeal on a de minimis basis?
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So the photos contradict what the OP has told us. So OP can you please clarify how you turned round have turned into the road by mistake.
As Bham seem now to be offering the discount, I think it is worthwhile submitting reps on a de minimis basis.
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Actually, looking at this thread, https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/birmingham-caz-pcn/
It appears Birmingham are now offering a discount in their rejections.
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If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.
?? The picture shows the OP leaving the zone having presumably passed the entrance signs.
No it doesn't. Look at the Google Street View of the location. OP says he turned into the street, saw the sign, and then turned round using the triangular traffic island, so at no time did he pass the sign on the left. The sign on the right cannot be seen by drivers turning left into the street.
That's not true. Look at the council picture provided, the OP's car is adjacent to the pedestrian dropped kerb, and, from Google Street View it shows that the sign is before the crossing when entering the road, so therefore they must have passed the sign. That's not to say they may have a de minimus case though, but, as Birmingham don't reoffer the discount, it's a gamble.
OP, don't expect a quick reply to your appeal. In my experience it takes at least a month to receive a response.
Indeed there seems to be a bit of magical thinking here.
One update though - in this other current case Brum has reoffered the discount on rejection:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/birmingham-caz-pcn/
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If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.
?? The picture shows the OP leaving the zone having presumably passed the entrance signs.
No it doesn't. Look at the Google Street View of the location. OP says he turned into the street, saw the sign, and then turned round using the triangular traffic island, so at no time did he pass the sign on the left. The sign on the right cannot be seen by drivers turning left into the street.
That's not true. Look at the council picture provided, the OP's car is adjacent to the pedestrian dropped kerb, and, from Google Street View it shows that the sign is before the crossing when entering the road, so therefore they must have passed the sign. That's not to say they may have a de minimus case though, but, as Birmingham don't reoffer the discount, it's a gamble.
OP, don't expect a quick reply to your appeal. In my experience it takes at least a month to receive a response.
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Thanks for the clarification! Since I never actually entered the CAZ, this should be a strong case for the Tribunal. Have there been similar cases where people won? Also, do I need to request any additional evidence from the council, like video footage, to strengthen my argument? I have submitted representation what else I can do on my behalf.
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I think the case is bit complex. So I have no choice rather to pay them fine before the discount period is over. Otherwise it's gonna affect my credit history.
So what makes this case complex ? It is easy; you mistakenly turned left, saw the CAZ sign, stopped then U-turned using the triangular traffic island and rejoined your original route. At no time did you enter the CAZ.
There is no possibility of any affect on your credit history; put that out of your mind now. Of course councils will browbeat you and intimidate you by saying they will take the matter to the county court if you don't pay, but they are bluffing. There is only ONE "court" that they HAVE to use called the Traffic Enforcement Centre that is there to register PCN debts. It has no court rooms or judges, and no CCJs result. A council can, once a PCN debt is registered, instruct bailiffs to collect the debt.
If you now take Birmingham to the adjudicators, as is your absolute right in law, the PCN penalty is the maximum you are liable to pay if you lose. If you do lose, and then fail to pay after that, then the council can register the debt as above and get bailiffs to collect it.
But it's your money so pay-up if you want to.
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I think the case is bit complex. So I have no choice rather to pay them fine before the discount period is over. Otherwise it's gonna affect my credit history.
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Is there no video?
Nope. I don't think videos are taken for CAZ zones. The photos they have are appalling, IMHO
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Is there no video?
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Well Birmingham's evidence does not support this. I can't see how you can look at the picture and come up with not passing the sign if you did a U-turn in that road.
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Thanks for explaining! Since I didn’t pass the sign on the left and the right-side sign isn’t visible when turning, does this mean the PCN was wrongly issued? If the council rejects my appeal, would this argument be strong enough to win at the Tribunal? Also, is there any other evidence I should collect to strengthen my case?
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If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.
?? The picture shows the OP leaving the zone having presumably passed the entrance signs.
No it doesn't. Look at the Google Street View of the location. OP says he turned into the street, saw the sign, and then turned round using the triangular traffic island, so at no time did he pass the sign on the left. The sign on the right cannot be seen by drivers turning left into the street.
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If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.
?? The picture shows the OP leaving the zone having presumably passed the entrance signs.
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I've submitted the representation Online to Birmingham council. I will wait until 13th day for their response. Otherwise, I'll accept the fate and Pay them 60£. I'll be more careful next time. What do u think?
If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.
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I've submitted the representation Online to Birmingham council. I will wait until 13th day for their response. Otherwise, I'll accept the fate and Pay them 60£. I'll be more careful next time. What do u think?
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Their evidence just shows you exiting the zone. I don't know if they provide the video - where did you turn - partly in the camera view maybe.
They must consider discretion if you explain what happened and add what you were trying to do on your trip.
But the danger is if they reject the discount is gone but you can appeal to the tribunal and they don't contest some cases. But the tribunal if it does get heard can't consider mitigation.
(https://i.imgur.com/Yc5WPwh.jpeg)
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Thank you for your detailed response! I really appreciate it. I made a U-turn at Frank Street, Triangular Island which I believe was before entering the actual CAZ. If that’s correct, does this mean there was no contravention at all? Also, since the signs were not lit at night, does that strengthen my appeal?"
(I accidentally turned into frank street and suddenly I realised That CAZ I made U turn and turn exited the same way without driving further or stopping anywhere.)
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It all depends on whether you are prepared to risk the full PCN penalty or not. If you are, then you have the absolute right in law to submit representations to Birmingham, and then, if rejected, to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
Here is the advance warning sign of the CAZ (Frank St)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/18jH6xHEEdWKTeSd8
Here are the signs at entry into Frank St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/sT87FnURBQhwrdD69
The right-hand sign is badly placed, (or has been turned round after installation), because the only way to enter Frank St is with a left turn, so the signage can be considered inadequate.
This view also shows inadequacy of signage on this very busy ring road. You'd easily miss the advance sign, and turn in and it would be dangerous to stop at the sign.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uH2PPAqxoxqQS8D38
And it all happened at night and the signs are not lit.
You say you turned round at the roundabout, but I see no roundabout and there is no video of your car passing any sign. So did you really mean you turned at the triangular island as I show here ? If so then there is no contravention at all.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/mWdvyQWYK7BqJYrs5
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Birmingham doesn't offer the discount on rejection so you need to think carefully about challenging this.
Are you from out of town - what was the purpose of journey?
Hi
I was just passing through and I'm not from Birmingham. I didn't realize I had entered the CAZ and made a U-turn immediately to exit. I didn't drive further into the zone. Given that it was an honest mistake, do you think I have a strong case for appeal?" Or
Shal I just accept the fate and Pay PCN.
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Birmingham doesn't offer the discount on rejection so you need to think carefully about challenging this.
Are you from out of town - what was the purpose of journey?
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Hi everyone,
I recently received a Clean Air Zone (CAZ) PCN from Birmingham City Council, and I need advice on whether I can appeal.
PCN Number: KW34911563
Date of Offence: 12/01/2025
Location: Frank Street, Birmingham
Vehicle: Peugeot KU58 ZTG
What Happened:
I accidentally turned into Frank Street, but I immediately made a U-turn at the roundabout and exited the same way. I did not continue deeper into the CAZ, yet I still received a fine.
My Evidence:
Google Timeline Screenshot showing my U-turn at the roundabout.
I did not stop, park, or drive further into the CAZ.
My Questions:
1. Does my situation qualify for an appeal?
2. Does my PCN have any legal errors that could help me challenge it?
3. Should I argue for leniency, or do I have a strong case for cancellation?
I've already asked on Reddit, and they suggested I check with FTLA for potential errors in the PCN. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Thankyou
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