Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 03:10:39 pm

Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on June 26, 2025, 11:12:32 pm
EIR response from the council:

We received notification to for the suspension on the 20th January 2025, 3 signs were displayed on the 24th January 2025 and removed on the 1st February 2025. The suspension was requested by Marlborough Highways who are the council contractors for Highways works. We do not keep a log of the VRMs that were parked when the suspension boards were displayed nor in the subsequent days. We do not keep photo evidence of when the signs were displayed or when removed. No additional signage was installed for the day that the signage was installed

(https://i.imgur.com/V7SpUIN.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/RFJz1dk.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZWBwSwr.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/91Tk5ik.png)

@ixo I see the PCN balance is zero so I infer that either it was cancelled, or you've given up and paid, or the hire company paid it for you and recharged you.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on April 29, 2025, 06:59:58 pm
Quote from: ixo on April 29, 2025, 03:25:47 pm
I was concerned that the letter from Havering Council to the hire (leasing) company says they (as vehicle owner) are legally responsible and shouldn't pass on the PCN to the person driving the vehicle, and at the same time the amount payable is being increased as time goes on.
That wording is intended to avoid situations where someone has lent a car to their friend and hands the NTO to their friend to deal with, for hire companies the situation is legally different.

Quote from: ixo on April 29, 2025, 03:25:47 pm
If the Penalty notification to the leasing company is cancelled and a new one issued in my name presumably that will mean the whole process is reset to start and I will need to resubmit an initial appeal to HAvering?
That's exactly right, once you have a new Notice to Owner in your own name you can submit your own representations.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on April 29, 2025, 03:25:47 pm
I was concerned that the letter from Havering Council to the hire (leasing) company says they (as vehicle owner) are legally responsible and shouldn't pass on the PCN to the person driving the vehicle, and at the same time the amount payable is being increased as time goes on.

I was also worried I had perhaps interfered with the correct process since I submitted an appeal directly to Havering at the start of the process before any Penalty notification was transferred to my name.

If the Penalty notification to the leasing company is cancelled and a new one issued in my name presumably that will mean the whole process is reset to start and I will need to resubmit an initial appeal to HAvering?

Thanks again for all guidance on this.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on April 27, 2025, 12:26:46 pm
The hire company has challenged the NTO on the ground that they're a hire company and you had hired the vehicle, so now you just need to wait for the council to cancel the NTO to the hire company and issue a new one in your own name. You will then have 28 days from the date of service of that new Notice to Owner to make representations.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: stamfordman on April 26, 2025, 07:28:06 pm
You can't do anything until you have a notice to owner in your name. You need to ensure the lease firm gave the correct name and address to Havering.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on April 26, 2025, 04:20:58 pm
Has been a little while since any communication to report. I did contact the leasing company a while back to ask for transfer of liability but got no response.

Have just received an email from leasing company with two attachments uploaded at the following links (I have removed personal info and references from the uploads):

Havering Letter:
https://imgur.com/a/h93deRj [page 01]
https://imgur.com/a/2v41rl7 [page 02]
https://imgur.com/a/1aedjQa [page 03]
https://imgur.com/a/PY9mO7y [page 04]

Leasing Company letter:
https://imgur.com/a/5tZZ7Sw [page 01]
https://imgur.com/a/rIrqmhn [page 02]

The letter from Havering to the leasing company is dated 14/04/2025 and the letter from the leasing company to me is dated 26/04/2025, so the 28 day deadline to respond has been eaten into a little.

The letter from the leasing company states the following:

"We have given your details to the relevant issuer transferring liability of this parking charge notice to you. The issuer will now contact you directly."

Although the leasing company letter states that they "have attached a Third Party Authorisation letter", they did not include any such authorisation letter in their email.

There doesn't seem to be much time remaining to appeal, but am slightly confused if I am able to do so without a third party authorisation letter.

I would be very grateful for further advice on how to proceed from here.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on March 12, 2025, 10:34:03 pm
Contact the hire company, warn them that the Notice to Owner will be coming, and ask them to make a representation requesting a transfer of liability. The council will then reissue the Notice to Owner to whoever has leased the vehicle, either you or your wife.

As the discount is off the table, there's no point in paying now.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on March 12, 2025, 09:44:06 pm
Slight senior moment on my part, my wife is not the registered keeper of the car which I indicated in a previous post. The car is leased so the registered keeper is the leasing company. When I submitted the appeal to the council on 04 Feb 2025 I did so in my own name.
I have just had an email from the council rejecting my initial appeal. The rejection letter is at the following links:

https://imgur.com/a/K2jXda9
https://imgur.com/a/zZIE9dx

Would appreciate advice on how to proceed from here.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on February 05, 2025, 06:39:44 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on February 05, 2025, 03:17:05 pm
If you want to continue to pursue the matter, then you wait for the Notice to Owner. You will need to get a letter of authority from your wife for you to act on her behalf at that stage and onwards to adjudication if you get that far
If you're making representations online then as long as you have her consent, you can just put her name in the relevant boxes on the council website, there's no way they could even know.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: Incandescent on February 05, 2025, 03:17:05 pm
Quote from: ixo on February 05, 2025, 02:37:31 pm
My wife is the registered keeper of the vehicle.
Does this affect how things proceed from here?
From earlier posts on this thread I had expected that the initial appeal would be rejected routinely by the council. Should this happen then should further appeals be in her name?
If you want to continue to pursue the matter, then you wait for the Notice to Owner. You will need to get a letter of authority from your wife for you to act on her behalf at that stage and onwards to adjudication if you get that far
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 05, 2025, 02:37:31 pm
My wife is the registered keeper of the vehicle.
Does this affect how things proceed from here?
From earlier posts on this thread I had expected that the initial appeal would be rejected routinely by the council. Should this happen then should further appeals be in her name?
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: H C Andersen on February 05, 2025, 02:11:49 pm
Are you the registered keeper of the car? I ask because history suggests that the authority will reject your informal reps and therefore the registered keeper - on whom a NTO would be served- comes into play.

Current DVLA keeper details?
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 04, 2025, 09:25:58 pm
Appeal submitted.

Many thanks to all that have provided guidance to prepare the appeal, much appreciated.


Informal Challenge Form
Thank you for your correspondence, your reference number is: W20768396

Please keep this for your records, you will receive a response to your correspondence by post or email, within 56 working days.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 04, 2025, 07:21:00 pm
In the first image the suspension sign is attached to a lamp post (can identify it and from comparison to Google street view as the post is white colour) which has a "no loading" sign. So this suspension notice is not attached to the regulatory "disabled bay" sign. Not sure if this weakens the appeal at all. Certainly as noted above, the first disabled bay sign (which is in front of the vehicle) does not have a suspension sign attached.

Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on February 04, 2025, 06:43:57 pm
The CEO's photos are now online:

(https://i.imgur.com/QWvGKoK.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/i5XHbIi.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3kuMCMY.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TcngAM6.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KDygSyA.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QcbAutZ.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mzNVvBl.jpeg)

The last photo helpfully confirms that there was no suspension sign on the regulatory sign just ahead of your car, so you were entitled to rely on that sign. Here's a simple challenge:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I challenge this PCN on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because when I got out of my car I did not see any suspension signs, the regulatory sign just in front of my car was not in fact carrying any suspension sign and this is confirmed by the last CEO photo taken from behind my car. I saw the regulatory sign and I was entitled to rely on it, once I found the PCN I determined that there was another regulatory sign further along that did have a suspension sign, but that suspension sign was obscured by the roadworks signs, see the attached images. In light of the inadequate signage the contravention did not occur, and the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page, also upload at least the first three photos that you've taken yourself (if the council website only lets you upload three it doesn't matter if you can't upload the fourth one).
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 04, 2025, 05:04:06 pm
Ok, thanks. I have submitted the following query:

"photographs taken by the CEO when issuing the PCN have not been made available. Please provide copies of these photographs."

Received an email confirming receipt of query with the following message:

"Your reference number is F684723584.

Thank you for submitting LBH Parking PCN Online enquiry form."

I'll update post once I receive a reply
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: stamfordman on February 04, 2025, 04:46:45 pm
I mean the pics the CEO took when issuing the PCN. They will probably show the suspension sign they rely on which won't be by your car.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 04, 2025, 04:44:07 pm
Is that pictures of the signage that were put in place during the suspension, or pictures taken by the warden related to the specific PCN?
Do they need to publish the pictures on a specific web page?
I just want to make sure I'm asking them the right question. Do I need to refer to the PCN number in my request?
Would they typically respond quickly to such requests?

Thanks all

Also a bit of a concern that
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: stamfordman on February 04, 2025, 04:36:07 pm
Havering has not put its pics up so contact them and ask for them to be made available.

https://havering-self.achieveservice.com/service/lbh-Parking-PCN-Online-enquiry-form
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 11:43:30 pm
Thanks all for your responses, much appreciated.
Copy of the rear of the PCN is at the following link:

https://imgur.com/a/pQBouVI

Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: Incandescent on February 03, 2025, 11:13:27 pm
To put it simply, as a motorist, you are required to look for the sign for the bay in which you parked your car to make sure you have adhered to the conditions put on it. If the sign for your car had no suspension sign on it, then the alleged contravention did not occur.

Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on February 03, 2025, 10:11:44 pm
@ixo I think there is a viable case but obviously you must assume the council will reject, so this will have to be taken to the tribunal.

Can you also post the back of the PCN?
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 09:53:08 pm
Definitely wasn't a suspension notice on the post adjacent to bay number 2. (Annotated photo shows this post close to a square brown manhole cover in pavement).
https://imgur.com/a/tiIPbMg
Can see same manhole cover on Google street view to confirm that this is definitely the post adjacent to bay number 2
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: H C Andersen on February 03, 2025, 09:44:44 pm
Your obligation upon parking is to look for the nearest applicable traffic sign. That you might have to skirt a ground-mounted sign to do so is not the issue, neither is that you couldn't see from X metres away.

Did the traffic sign mounted in bay 2 carry a suspension notice?

If yes, then your problems are significant IMO.

But if not, then you should be in the clear.

Not bothering to look and/or not seeing from where your car was parked are not solid defences IMO. The sign in evidence suspends all bays, but was this the one in bay no. 2?
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 09:35:37 pm
My argument, which is the one that I put to the warden at the time, is that where suspension signs had been fitted, they were obscured from view by the roadworks signs. They simply were not clearly visible.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: H C Andersen on February 03, 2025, 09:23:29 pm
On the street there are five disabled parking bays. Adjacent to these bays there are a total of four posts with regulatory signs fitted.

The photo (yours or the council's?) shows you were parked in the first in a line of 5 bays within a single parking place. There is no legal requirement for the council to place individual parking signs because as all the bays are within the same parking place and only a SINGLE restriction may apply and only one sign is required.

And therein lies the issue IMO. That there isn't a traffic sign in the first bay is not key except that each other bay has one. It's as if the council treat each bay as being a separate parking place. But the restrictions are the same i.e. 24/7 reserved to BB holders.

So what's your argument? In practice, as traffic signs aren't required but may be provided then your obligation was to look for the nearest applicable traffic sign, not 'turn left''. As a matter of fact, did this sign (the traffic sign immediately ahead in bay no.2) carry a suspension notice?
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 09:09:16 pm
I often park in the disabled bay when I visit M&S. I hadn’t been for a week, I didn’t notice the suspension notice because I was watching oncoming traffic as I approached the parking space.
I have trouble walking. So, I get out of the car and turn left, away from the suspension notice. It is a shorter walk and there is a customer lift.
I was only in the shop for a short time (I would estimate less than 20 minutes), and when I returned to my car, I saw the ticket and the warden and asked him why I had been ticketed. He told me about the suspension and said it was clearly displayed. I disagreed with him because of the traffic signs obscuring it.
He refused to rescind the ticket.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on February 03, 2025, 08:22:30 pm
It would have been better to have a photo taken from further back, as a suspicious adjudicator could wonder whether there's a suspension sign on the first post further up that just isn't visible in the photo, but I'll get hold of the photos from when the signs were put up to deal with that point.

In the meantime it would be helpful to have a short narrative about who parked (was it you), for how long, what the driver was there for and so on.
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 08:03:14 pm
Thanks for your reply.

On the street there are five disabled parking bays. Adjacent to these bays there are a total of four posts with regulatory signs fitted.
From the following (annotated) photo taken on the date in question, it can be seen that there is no suspension notice fitted to the post nearest to the bay in which my vehicle was parked. The next post has a suspension notice but it is almost completely hidden by the "single file traffic" roadworks sign. The next post has no suspension notice, and the final post may have a suspension notice but is certainly not visible from the position of the parking bay used.

Annotated photos of signage: https://imgur.com/a/tiIPbMg 

As far as I'm aware the signs are all gone now, the restrictions appear to have only been in place for one day
Title: Re: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: cp8759 on February 03, 2025, 06:21:19 pm
@ixo I'll get the suspension logs, but the key question is whether there was any suspension signs on the actual regulatory signs for the bays, which are these ones: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wioZhwcUj9sdcevG7

I take it all the signs are now gone?
Title: Havering, Parking in a suspended bay - Branfill Road, Upminster
Post by: ixo on February 03, 2025, 03:10:39 pm
Penalty Charge Notice: HG20808110
Served on: 31/01/2025 09:18
Location: Branfill Road, Upminster
Council: London Borough of Havering
Contravention: Parking in a suspended bay
Vehicle Reg: FD24ZLZ

Vehicle was parked within disabled parking bay.
Blue badge was displayed (can be seen in image of car windscreen below).
As can be seen from the various images at below weblinks, notices of parking suspension were completely obscured by roadworks signs.
The parking suspension signs could not be seen from the parking space that was used.

@cp8759 Would appreciate advice on likelihood of success in appealing this penalty.

PCN_Image https://imgur.com/a/BGF9tMB
SuspensionSign_Obscured_01 https://imgur.com/a/cESNiue
SuspensionSign_Obscured_02 https://imgur.com/a/J9JZhEg
SuspensionSign_Obscured_03 https://imgur.com/a/eEmc3JD
SuspensionSign_Obscured_04 https://imgur.com/a/uer6TIw
View_of_car https://imgur.com/a/ghyDo3W
View_from_car https://imgur.com/a/gV57MA9

Google streetview link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RNdnvESHfog4Bzac9