Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Sander333 on January 31, 2025, 01:21:30 pm
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Just ignore all the DRA letters and come back when you receive the LoC. The photos are beneficial but the chances of this actually getting as far as a hearing in court are less than 1%. Any claim will either be struck out or discontinued.
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I have returned to the retail/Industrial park and have taken additional photos which I anticipate will corroborate how badly the signs are placed. They are placed amongst advertisement signs hopefully they will be beneficial in the event of any court case
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Can someone explain why the PCN states As the PCN has not been paid in full the parking charge remains outstanding.
It seems like the cart is put before the horse how can you pay a PCN when you do not know about it until you receive it.
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Private parking sector single Code of Practice (https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf)
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Just one question what does PPS cop mean I understand that cop is code of practice.Thanks
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Thanks for the advice will await what comes next.
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In this appeals process, you are playing against a stacked deck. UKCPM were never going to accept any appeal. The IAS are this independent:
UKCPM belong to the International Parking Community (IPC) is the trading name of United Trade and Industry Ltd. The IPCs director are Will Hurley and John Davies (John Llewellyn Gladstone Davies). The Independent Appeals Service Ltd (IAS), has the following directors... Will Hurley. Which firm of bottom dwelling solicitors do you think they use for their bulk litigation? Yes, Gladstones, and who do you think the MD of Gladstones is? Yes, John Davies.
If you want to waste your time on a futile IAS appeal, be my guest. However, I would advise waiting out all the useless debt crawler letters that are going to come your way and when they issue a claim, that is when you will win. The debt collectors are powerless and can be safely ignored. Do not ever, ever, communicate with a useless debt collector.
Come back when you receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) and we will advise you through the inevitable strike out or discontinuation.
You have a very strong defence as you cannot be liable as the Keeper because their NtK is not fully compliant with PoFA, 9(2)(b) and 9(2)(e)(i). Also, they are in breach of the PPSCoP sections 3.1.1 and 3.1.3.
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I have copied the rejection reply which I assume is the usual general rejection letter sent out.
Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge Notice.
At UK CPM we consider all appeals on a case-by-case basis. We take each appeal very seriously and thoroughly investigate any evidence that has been provided. We appreciate your circumstances and understand this is not a situation anyone would like to find themselves in; however, these parking conditions have been put in place to ensure fair usage for all motorists and support the needs of our client. After careful consideration, it is unfortunate that I am writing to you today to advise that on this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful.
The decision to uphold your parking charge notice has been made on the following basis.
Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, as per our photographic evidence, the vehicle was parked in contravention of the advertised terms and conditions. As the vehicle was not parked fully within a bay, we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.
You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; either pay or appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) - you cannot do both.
To make payment of the total amount due as shown above, please use one of the following payment options;
Online: www.paymyticket.co.uk
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I have had my appeal to the Private Parking Company rejected which comes as no surprise. Is it worth putting the rejection letter up for viewing.
I would like assistance in forming an appeal to I A S given all the circumstances especially in relation to signage
Section 3.1.1
An entrance sign must be displayed and maintained at the entrance to the controlled land to inform drivers as appropriate whether parking is permitted subject to terms and conditions including payment or is prohibited unless
The nature of the premises makes this unnecessary such that drivers would not reasonably assume parking was permissible gives an example of a small shop forecourt or private driveway.
As one can see there are no signs at all at the entrance of the Industrial/ Retail Park on one of the two entrances.The one that does have one states P Welcome in blue on the offside of the road when driving into the estate this sign is not conspicuous and is placed on the side of the road where there are yellow lines.
The other sub section relates to where signs are not practicable e.g where local planning restrictions prohibit such signs.
I feel that as the driver entered the estate at an entrance where no signs were displayed this needs to be considered.
Further subsection 3.1.3 states that signs placed on the controlled land drivers have the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving the vehicle it adds that the signs must be clearly visible to the driver from a distance and legible on approach.
Given the fact that the signs were placed on the ground behind parking bays whereby they are obstructed to the view of a driver when a vehicle is parked in a parking bay where they are sited this in itself must hold credence.
These signs could have been placed strategically on the building alongside the signs indicating that customers only should park in the parking bays. It Wouk’s make sense to have the relative signs places at every parking bay.
I look forward to your valuable advice in formulating my appeal.It will be very interesting what the outcome from IAS will be.
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A classic example of officious waste of public money. In other words, they have taken it upon themselves to nanny motorists by putting up speed limit signs at the entrance to private property where no such legal obligation exists.
Utter waste of public funds and inexcusable. If what they are claiming were necessary, they should put up such signs at the entrance to every driveway in their borough. Equally, they would be required to put a sign on the other side of it indicating the speed limit of the public highway that the driveway leads onto.
Doesn't really affect the case but you should get your local media interested in this nanny state waste of public taxes.
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I have had a reply from the local authority regarding the placing of speed limit signs on Private Land I also asked in my initial e mail who was paying for the privelige of these signs.
I have also written to Landowner regarding the PCN yet to hear back.
Any observations would be appreciated
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I have submitted an e mail to the Landowner as per advice and will wait for their reply if any.
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Plan A, a complaint to the landowner is always worthwhile. We take it for granted that the recipient of what they consider and unfair PCN would try Plan A.
Let us know what the LA come back with.
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I have received acknowledgement of my appeal which was advised and had automated reply.
Is there any point at this stage making a complaint to the land owner. I have also asked the LA why they have placed speed limit signs on private land in order to establish whether the council tax payer has had to foot the bill or Welsh Government. Will be interesting reply.
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Apologies for the above repeat was looking at how to copy and sate for filing
No appeal to the operator is ever going to be accepted, no matter how blatantly absurd their claim is. No money in it for them.
Whilst I personally wouldn't bother with a subsequent IAS secondary appeal, as that kangaroo court only serves its paymasters, and that ain't you. Others would advise you give it a shot anyway. So, save those details for any secondary appeal and, more likely, a Witness Statement should the inevitable county court claim progress as far as a hearing, which it won't.
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did you send the appeal @b789 posted for you?
or did you change it to the above?
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Apologies for the above repeat was looking at how to copy and sate for filing
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The Registered keeper has received a Parking charge notice issued to the driver of a motor vehicle for parking not wholly in parking bay in an Industrial Estate. Upon entering the estate there are no signs to indicate that the Estate is private land.The driver wanted to visit Toolstation and upon driving into the parking bay noticed a parking sign left the vehicle not wholly parked in the bay in order to read the sign which indicated that the vehicle must be parked within the bay. The driver returned to vehicle and decided to move it. They did not see or was approached by any person. The parking charge notice received just provides a time of incident i.e. 1402 there are no times provided for observation of the vehicle parked. As I understand it there should be a grace period to be observed in order to ensure that the terms have been read and agreed to.
I will post up PCN and signs asap
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It's not really relevant at this stage. Just send the appeal as advised and then we can deal with anything else if or when necessary.
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I have requested from the local authority whether the road leading to the industrial estate is an adopted road. They sent me a map of all adopted roads any idea why the LA would place 20:MPH on a private road.
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Yes that is correct it is the post where the 20mph sign is on
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I think it's the 20mph sign visible in one of the other pics
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(https://i.imgur.com/uvku9bw.jpeg)
Just keep alll the photos, just in case they're ever needed. (unlikely)
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Thanks in anticipation
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There are some additional photos
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Appeal submitted the Registered Keeper has re visited the Industrial Estate to gather further information. There are two entrances to enter the estate one entrance has a very small sign on the offside of the road when entering which is difficult to read or notice when driving. The other entrance has no signs at all except a small sign on the wall saying the road is private under section 31 of the Highways Act 1980 and to use it with consent of the owner. There are also 20mph speed limit signs at the entrance. This is totally confusing to say the least. There are a number of photographs taken for your information and any observations.
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Yes will take some additional photos as above within the next day or so.
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If you can get a phot of the entrance to the parking area showing no signs, that is worth keeping handy. However, I doubt that these will ever be needed.
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Thanks for advice will submit appeal tomorrow morning. Just for clarification there are no information/warning signs when entering Industrial Estate to indicate that the area subject to private parking restrictions.
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It is a joke. There is no way UKCPM can ever hope to recover anything for this "invoice" they have sent the Keeper. However, as they are IPC members, you will probably have to drag this out all the pay to a county court claim.
That is a good thing because the county court is the ultimate dispute resolution service and if they were to take this all the way, they would receive a thorough spanking in court. They won't though. They will try litigation in the hope the you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will cave in and pay up once litigation starts, out of ignorance and fear.
For now, simply appeal with the following as the Keeper only (They have no idea who the driver is unless you tell them and you are under no legal obligation to do so):
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012 or the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), you are unable to hold the Keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. UKCPM may be relying on the kangaroo court that is the IAS to back them up over this sham PCN, but the Keeper is quite prepared to go straight to litigation if it isn’t cancelled and will be more than happy to see UKCPM humiliated in court should they be so stupid as to push this that far.
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The Registered Keeper has return to the area and has taken photographs of the area.
What is of particular concern is that the signs which are interspersed over the area are adjacent to the ground. They are not fixed and upon inspection can be rotated around the metal barrier pole so they can be difficult to see especially when there are vehicles particularly vans which frequent tool station are parked directly in front of them. If all the parking spaces were used where the signers are placed you would not see them. as all vehicles would obstruct the signs being on the floor. If they were placed higher on the building for example like the sings for customer only parking then they would probably more visible. These signs could easily be removed and replaced in a few seconds. Any views on these observations. As one can see this sign and others are not in the Welsh language.
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There's no strategic advantage to be gained from timing your appeal one way or the other.
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As it happens I am a Welsh Speaker and a number of private car parks have bilingual signs. I will return to the site shortly over the next day or so but from my recollection the signs are not bilingual. Thank you for the advice so far.When is the best time to send off an appeal is it sooner rather than later.
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A close up of the sign is not enough. It also needs to show the general layout of the parking area and how the signs appear on approach. As this is in Wales, are you a Welsh speaker? Are the signs also in Welch?
The Notice to Keeper (NtK) is not PoFA compliant. The Keeper cannot be liable as long as the unknown driver's identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.
Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. UKCPM have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
Come back when PCMUK reject the appeal for further advice.
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The Registered keeper has received a Parking charge notice issued to the driver of a motor vehicle for parking not wholly in parking bay in an Industrial Estate. Upon entering the estate there are no signs to indicate that the Estate is private land.The driver wanted to visit Toolstation and upon driving into the parking bay noticed a parking sign left the vehicle not wholly parked in the bay in order to read the sign which indicated that the vehicle must be parked within the bay. The driver returned to vehicle and decided to move it. They did not see or was approached by any person. The parking charge notice received just provides a time of incident i.e. 1402 there are no times provided for observation of the vehicle parked. As I understand it there should be a grace period to be observed in order to ensure that the terms have been read and agreed to.
I will post up PCN and signs asap
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