Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Dave-barrie on September 06, 2023, 09:47:30 am
-
Has the CC been revoked, if this is not dealt with then you risk bailiffs at the door
-
Good point: inexact locus.
-
Something else that has just come to mind - there are TWO box junctions in Plumstead Common Road approximately 100yds apart. The CC only says Plumstead Common Road - it doesn't give a specific location.
-
I was issued a PCN at this box junction in July. I was following a bus and it stopped at its stop, just like there is one in this case that is blocking the carriageway.
I took it to adjudication, but Greenwich failed to submit any evidence so I didn't get a ruling...however, I believe that with the road markings in their current layout, the design and implementation of this box junction mean it is unenforceable. I have FOI'd various info about the junction, the box and the number of PCNs issued, but Greenwich have failed miserably to answer my simple questions and the matter is now with the ICO.
Anyway, to the point...
Here is the pertinant piece of research that I submitted to the adjudicator:
Per the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 5, Road Markings, 2018
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/773421/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-05.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/773421/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-05.pdf)
Sect.8.3 - Suitability
8.3.4. ….. A survey will also reveal what further measures might be needed, e.g. imposition of waiting and loading restrictions or re location of bus stops
8.3.5. Factors which influence a decision to provide box markings shown in Figure 8-1 and Figure 8-2 include the following:
e) the carriageway beyond the junction should be free from obstruction (this may necessitate the imposition of waiting or loading restrictions, or the adjustment of bus stops on the lengths concerned);
f) where a succession of junctions gives rise to blocking back, the establishment of a series of boxes should be considered, provided at least 20 m storage space can be maintained between successive boxes;
There is insufficient time in the appeal process to obtain a copy of the Suitability Survey and Traffic Order via the FOI process, but even without it there is clear evidence that the layout of the box junction does not meet the suitability criteria. There is a clear obstruction immediately after the box junction with the presence of a 20 metre long bus stop and the recommendation of a 20 metre storage space between successive boxes can surely only mean that the first obstruction (of any type) after a box must be a minimum of 20 metres ahead. The gap between the box and the bus stop is 2.4 metres. (I physically mesured the gap and the bus stop)
Does this all make sense?
This may allow you a further option to challenge the PCN.
I'm currently putting together a document to take to my local councillors as I believe Greenwich are illegally fining people due to this.
-
With respect, while the preamble in the CC might not be consistent with events, it is just that, a preamble. It is a red herring in terms of process - the only matters which a CC must contain are:
Charge certificates
5(1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
And it does.
Furthermore, it correctly advises what might happen next even though there is no regulatory or legislative requirement to do so.
If their struggle with dates and periods is systemic there might be a procedural silver bullet 'going forward' but only when the PCN is received and this won't happen until the procedure mentioned previously is followed.
OP, I suggest you just wait pl.
thank you for your explanation relating to dates and events, i will await the next stage as mentioned above.
-
With respect, while the preamble in the CC might not be consistent with events, it is just that, a preamble. It is a red herring in terms of process - the only matters which a CC must contain are:
Charge certificates
5(1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
And it does.
Furthermore, it correctly advises what might happen next even though there is no regulatory or legislative requirement to do so.
If their struggle with dates and periods is systemic there might be a procedural silver bullet 'going forward' but only when the PCN is received and this won't happen until the procedure mentioned previously is followed.
OP, I suggest you just wait pl.
-
Fascinating confusion of date of notice to pay and date of service to make representations.
not sure what i am looking at, can you explain please.
-
Fascinating confusion of date of notice to pay and date of service to make representations.
-
Post up what you have received along with the date of receipt if no PCN was served then this can be reset to the original penalty which you can then pay or challenge. But lets see the docs to be sure of the timelines
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Post up what you have received along with the date of receipt if no PCN was served then this can be reset to the original penalty which you can then pay or challenge. But lets see the docs to be sure of the timelines
i will post up the CC i have, she never received the original PCN notice, thank you.
-
Their video shows the car stopping because of a stationary vehicle ahead.
https://pcn.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/viewVideo.aspx?000361LEp2agM40gghvXAqtlz/+48x4k0jKvXcVyQ2PdgYlhVpKG9c3xJyf/gPdxLq0Bswjmz9bD925lvXG5cdVJYbGg==
That there was a conga line of stopped vehicles - the bus, a car immediately behind and then hers - and alighted passengers taking the opportunity to cross while this train was motionless is not the issue, IMO the video shows clearly that her car stopped due to a stationary vehicle while part of it was in the markings. The contravention therefore seems established.
But something's gone wrong with the post and she will have the opportunity to put this right by following the advice here.
She cannot do anything with the CC, so it's a case of waiting until the period for payment has elapsed and then follow the prescribed procedure, see Registration of Debt and Statutory Declaration(ominous sounding but routine):
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
But what if the Order for Recovery goes missing? Don't worry, come back here in 3-4 weeks and we can pick it up from there. She has 21 days in which to submit a SD after receipt, so effectively nothing's in jeopardy until the start of October at the earliest.
thank you for the information and i have viewed the evidence, this is totally different to the wife's encounter lol, so if i wait until the debt is registered i can then file a PE3 form, thank you for your time.
-
Post up what you have received along with the date of receipt if no PCN was served then this can be reset to the original penalty which you can then pay or challenge. But lets see the docs to be sure of the timelines
-
Their video shows the car stopping because of a stationary vehicle ahead.
https://pcn.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/viewVideo.aspx?000361LEp2agM40gghvXAqtlz/+48x4k0jKvXcVyQ2PdgYlhVpKG9c3xJyf/gPdxLq0Bswjmz9bD925lvXG5cdVJYbGg==
That there was a conga line of stopped vehicles - the bus, a car immediately behind and then hers - and alighted passengers taking the opportunity to cross while this train was motionless is not the issue, IMO the video shows clearly that the car stopped due to a stationary vehicle while part of it was in the markings. The contravention therefore seems established.
But something's gone wrong with the post and the keeper will have the opportunity to put this right by following the advice here.
The keeper cannot do anything with the CC, so it's a case of waiting until the period for payment has elapsed and then follow the prescribed procedure, see Registration of Debt and Statutory Declaration(ominous sounding but routine):
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
But what if the Order for Recovery goes missing? Don't worry, come back here in 3-4 weeks and we can pick it up from there. The keeper has 21 days in which to submit a SD after receipt, so effectively nothing's in jeopardy until the start of October at the earliest.
-
Hi looking for advice on a PCN Charge certificate which my partner received on the 29/8/23, My partner entered a yellow box but was stopped by kids running out from in front of a bus, she knows she stopped but we didn't get the first notification with the reduced amount and only got the increased one a few of days ago. any help and advice would be much appreciated, Thank you.
contravention 31j
location plumstead common road
pcn number gr21962589
vrm kp12 amx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyzzTaVHm-c