Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: helpmeout25 on January 26, 2025, 10:07:55 pm
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The OP disappeared but this case for another Hackney location was won at the tribunal yesterday with the same sign issue.
(https://i.imgur.com/bJSzgKg.jpeg)
Case reference 2250202096
Appellant xxxxxx
Authority London Borough of Hackney
VRM LV61 YEG
PCN Details
PCN QZ20469461
Contravention date 11 Jan 2025
Contravention time 14:16:00
Contravention location Dunston Street
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Parked - place not designated for class of vehicle
Referral date -
Decision Date 21 Aug 2025
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons The contravention alleged in these proceedings is that this vehicle was parked in a parking place not designated for that class of vehicle: on the council's case it, not being a motorcycle, was parked in a parking place for the use of motorcycles only.
On the appellant's case the sign was unclear. I agree with him. It may well be compliant, but it seems to me that it can be read as allowing both motorcyclists and, separately, J permit holders to park in this bay. I am not satisfied that the sign makes it clear that only motorcycles covered by a J permit can park on it. The appellant as a J permit holder in my view was entitled to conclude that he could park on the bay. I am not satisfied against this background as to the clarity of signage, and I accordingly find that the contravention did not occur.
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I agree with stamfordman about the sign
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Did you hear back from council on this?
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The traffic order will reveal!
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?
The sign is unfathomable IMO.
If what's in the lower panel is supposed to apply to solo m/c only then there shouldn't be a separating black line and there isn't a restriction on a Sunday.
But if the bay is restricted on Sundays then the sign means solo m/c only 24/7 but then what's the purpose of the hours in the lower panel?
What's option three? Solo m/c 24/7 but shared use as per the lower panel?
IMO, it is not solo m/c with permits otherwise what's intended ..solo m/c permit holders or P&D for the hours stated and then any old m/c outside these hours and Sundays???
Can't wait to see the traffic order.
Well, sorry to disagree, but the LH panels are as follows: -
top panel - M/C parking only at any time
bottom panel - Mon-Fri and Sat, at the times given, only permit holder or those paying to park their M/cs can park. So Sunday is all free for any M/c to park
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?
The sign is unfathomable IMO.
If what's in the lower panel is supposed to apply to solo m/c only then there shouldn't be a separating black line and there isn't a restriction on a Sunday.
But if the bay is restricted on Sundays then the sign means solo m/c only 24/7 but then what's the purpose of the hours in the lower panel?
What's option three? Solo m/c 24/7 but shared use as per the lower panel?
IMO, it is not solo m/c with permits otherwise what's intended ..solo m/c permit holders or P&D for the hours stated and then any old m/c outside these hours and Sundays???
Can't wait to see the traffic order.
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What was your challenge? You should have posted a draft here first.
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Thanks All, I appreciate the support here and have submitted an appeal. Will let you know how I get on!
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I'm going to repeat that it should be one plate with one arrow and should have a road legend to be clear it is a shared use bay only for m/cs.
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I must say I still don't get the signage - Mr I what do you think the two plates pointing to the left convey?
First plate restricts parking to motorcycles-only at all times
Second plate gives days and times when m/cs parking there must have a permit, or pay to park.
Forgive me for asking what is probably a very stupid question, but are you saying that only motorcycles can park to the left of that sign?
So do you think the car parked in front of the OP's car is in the motorcycle bay too?*
I ask because the notice in the London Gazette only refers to a length of 5m - pretty much all of which will have been taken up by the OP's Volvo.
If the motorcycle bay only extends for 5m to the left of that pole, I don't think the sign conveys that very clearly. But maybe I'm completely misunderstanding the situation?
*Of course you might say "Yes it is - and it probably got a ticket too"...
The sign pointing to the left applies to the single marked bay. Note the double lines perpendicular to the kerb That is a bay boundary line. So M/C parking is only for that single bay.
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I must say I still don't get the signage - Mr I what do you think the two plates pointing to the left convey?
First plate restricts parking to motorcycles-only at all times
Second plate gives days and times when m/cs parking there must have a permit, or pay to park.
Forgive me for asking what is probably a very stupid question, but are you saying that only motorcycles can park to the left of that sign?
So do you think the car parked in front of the OP's car is in the motorcycle bay too?*
I ask because the notice in the London Gazette only refers to a length of 5m - pretty much all of which will have been taken up by the OP's Volvo.
If the motorcycle bay only extends for 5m to the left of that pole, I don't think the sign conveys that very clearly. But maybe I'm completely misunderstanding the situation?
*Of course you might say "Yes it is - and it probably got a ticket too"...
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I still think it's not good as should be an integral plate with one arrow and they can't really pick and choose where to put a road legend if they want to be consistent.
It came into force 21 June 2024.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4646676
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Yes, of course. I just think that an appeal based on the sign being vague/misleading would fail, and the OP needs something else to go on.
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There's also this:
The PCN is vague as to the alleged contravention. Tribunal case 2170522445 is typical and the decision says
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle. The alleged contravention occurred in The Broadway at 1.12pm on 5 September 2017.
The Schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 sets out the contents required by the Regulations for a valid PCN served under Regulation 10.
Among other things, the PCN is required to state the grounds on which the enforcement authority believes that the penalty charge is payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of the PCN to properly understand the nature of the alleged contravention.
The Council say that the place in which Mrs Baltrusch De Gois' car was parked was a goods vehicle only loading bay. In other words, the bay was designated for goods vehicles only. This is not, however, clear on the face of the PCN which states simply that the vehicle was parked in a place not designated for that class of vehicle.
A motorist reading the PCN would not understand from the wording the nature of the alleged contravention because there is nothing to explain the class of vehicle for which the parking place was designated. The PCN needs to identify, whether by wording or images, that the class of vehicle for which the bay is designated is goods vehicles only.
I therefore find that the PCN was invalid and the appeal is allowed for that reason.
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Well, of course the OP has the absolute right in law to take the matter to London Tribunals, but my view is that the sign is clear enough. Obviously others like yourself differ.
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Yes I know that's what it means but I'm not happy withy the division into two plates with two arrows and also the lack of a road legend. The OP has been misled into thinking the bay is only timed at the times of the bottom plate.
Hackney has been turning its m/c bays into shared use permit/pay bays and I think they should look like the below. I expect a legend will appear in the OP's bay.
(https://i.imgur.com/SbgOJmT.png)
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I must say I still don't get the signage - Mr I what do you think the two plates pointing to the left convey?
First plate restricts parking to motorcycles-only at all times
Second plate gives days and times when m/cs parking there must have a permit, or pay to park.
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I must say I still don't get the signage - Mr I what do you think the two plates pointing to the left convey?
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Hi Both,
Thanks for the responses so far, I'll attach the image from the back of the ticket below. Please let me know if anything else is needed at all!
I don't think all my images came through so trying to re-upload these. The double dividers have always been there so this isn't a new addition which is why it's confusing for people when parking. The main issue I feel is that the bays aren't marked on the floor like the other exclusive one's which is weirdly inconsistent. The council have implemented this very recently and seemed to give the attendant instructions to circle on a Sunday since 3 people including myself by 12 pm had tickets. Not sure if it helps the case at all but wanted to add that extra bit of info, the bay in question is just at the end and a couple of cars down from the images below:
(https://i.imgur.com/ijcUkLr.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Qf0RhL1.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fY4A5ww.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xyE0CPB.jpeg)
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Signage does look confusing but the bay does have double dividers.But how are you supposed to tell which sign applies apart from the m/c being on top.
It doesn't look confusing to me, but then, I've been giving advice for some time on this forum and the now closed Pepipoo forums, so am reasonably up-to-speed on bays and signs.
The signs are placed on a pole at the dividing point between two separate bays that have, (incredibly !!!), actually been marked correctly. The signs are side by side with arrows pointing to their applicability. To the left motorcycles, to the right, other vehicles.
I think the key to your problem is your statement "As it was a Sunday I didn't fully check the signs as there are no parking restrictions on this road". Yet these bays and signs demonstrates that there are parking restrictions. In addition, a quick look at Barbauld Road using GSV shows virtually the whole street with parking bays and restrictions on their use.
Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear; new restrictions do seem to catch out people who have parked regularly in a location over a long period, but it won't convince an adjudicator, I'm afraid.
There may be a 'technical' appeal based on Hackney mismanagement of the enforcement process, so wait a bit to see what the others say. Also please post the back of the PCN so we can assess the 'small print' for fatal errors.
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Signage does look confusing but the bay does have double dividers.But how are you supposed to tell which sign applies apart from the m/c being on top.
The PCN doesn't say what class is supposed to be there.
(https://i.ibb.co/5RXCw9Z/h3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/j3LDLVv/h2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/q1Yb94r/h1.jpg)
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Hello All,
I parked today in Hackney on a road I always park on however within 30 minutes I came back out to my car and had a parking ticket for 'Parked in parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle'.
As it was a Sunday I didn't fully check the signs as there are no parking restrictions on this road and this new restriction/bay looks brand new and not fully finished. There are 2 other restriction bays on the road, one is for 'Car Club' and the other in 'EV Vehicle's', both of these are marked with signs and a painted floor tag designating the bays which are affected.
The new motorcycle bay that I parked in doesn't have this so you have to go off of an unclear sign which doesn't properly label the correct bay making it all very inconsistent and confusing to the unsure.
First time posting here and I have read the thread beforehand but do please let me know if I need to share any other info. I have 2 weeks to respond to the council (09/02/25)
(https://i.imgur.com/IlmpXTH.jpeg)