Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Leedsgirl94 on January 26, 2025, 03:50:35 pm
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Well you're not in a CPZ, to get to where you parked from Marlborough Road you have to go past these "end of CPZ" signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/SnNzmeQEsPey6De56
Obviously the rejection template they've used is so generic they don't even bother checking if you were in a CPZ, you weren't so their answer is doubly drivel.
We can tweak your draft once the Notice to Owner turns up and and I think you have all the photos you need as far as the signage goes, but what about the sinks?
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Hello
Apologies for the delayed follow up- please see attached photo of item, street view and the toolstation order showing collection time. The council also rejected my appeal as expected and I have attached that herein, notably they acknowledge there may be no signage nearby but state it is at the entry to a controlled zone which I am unaware of. I do have pictures of all the other items but these are not affixed due to the 4 item limitation
Please see my writeup as requested:
'On Jan 25 I received a PCN which I believe was incorrectly issued. I own the property I was parked outside, for many months now there have been significant works ongoing and electricians were present on site on the day in question. As I live elsewhere I order all items to my personal address and then drive them to the property, the electricians were on site to complete the second-fix works which includes affixing sockets, light fittings etc. I had previously ordered lights for the majority of the fittings which included 8 boxes of items, I then placed an order at Toolstation for 20 bulbs for the lights which I then collected at 12.23. I also had received a delivery of three sinks which had been loaded into my vehicle. I drove to the property and moved the boxes from the vehicle into the hallway then moved the boxes into their respective rooms, there are three stories in the property and a significant number of stairs. Once I had done this I immediately exited the property and found the inspector administering a ticket.'
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@Leedsgirl94 well it seems to me that you have a winning appeal on the signage (obviously the more grounds the better, as you only need to win on one point).
To make sure our case is watertight, would you be able to take the 2nd photo again when there are no vehicles / pedestrians / other obstacles in the way? Hopefully it will show that the sign attached to the street light is far too small to be noticable.
If you can give us the short narrative I've asked for and photos of the items you were unloading, I'll be able to draft a formal representation for when you get the notice to owner.
Thank you for your response, I will redo the photos and hopefully third time lucky on getting them right! I'll also take the other photos and write something up as requested, really appreciate your help
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@Leedsgirl94 well it seems to me that you have a winning appeal on the signage (obviously the more grounds the better, as you only need to win on one point).
To make sure our case is watertight, would you be able to take the 2nd photo again when there are no vehicles / pedestrians / other obstacles in the way? Hopefully it will show that the sign attached to the street light is far too small to be noticable.
If you can give us the short narrative I've asked for and photos of the items you were unloading, I'll be able to draft a formal representation for when you get the notice to owner.
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I can provide photos but the lights have all been affixed in their respective rooms now
It doesn't matter, they should still look brand new so the fact that they've been fitted shouldn't make any difference.
with regards to where I unloaded to it was multiple rooms across three floors as with the lights I put them in their intended destination and the bulbs, bollards and gas supplies are still in boxes in the downstairs living area so I can photograph them
Excellent so you'll just have to provide a short narrative about what went in which room.
Thank you, neither of those is an issue whatsoever- most of them still don't even have bulbs in them so it's clear they've just been installed. Please see attached retaken photos as requested on the edge of the curb
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I can provide photos but the lights have all been affixed in their respective rooms now
It doesn't matter, they should still look brand new so the fact that they've been fitted shouldn't make any difference.
with regards to where I unloaded to it was multiple rooms across three floors as with the lights I put them in their intended destination and the bulbs, bollards and gas supplies are still in boxes in the downstairs living area so I can photograph them
Excellent so you'll just have to provide a short narrative about what went in which room.
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After Micks and StamfordMan's responses I interpreted it as a lost hope so have already submitted a cobbled brief appeal based on what I've written in this thread so I'm not sure if it's irredeemable or worth exploring still
Well please shows us what you sent. DIY representations often cause more trouble than anything else, but we are where we are and the damage is seldom irremediable. The next step if they reject will be the Notice to Owner which you can challenge by making a formal representation, if that is rejected you can appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It's only at the TPT that you get a fair decision.
Also the photos you have taken are helpful but please could you please take two more from the edge of the kerb? We don't want to risk any accusation at the tribunal that you took photos from a "convenient" angle, as that could destroy your credibility.
Also could you provide photos of all the items you unloaded? It sounds like you had quite a bit of stuff and a couple of photos could illustrate this better than a description (you will also need receipts for all the items). It would also be helpful to know where you were unloading it to, for instance just by the door or upstairs or up to the loft?
I just wrote it in the 'contact us box' online and unfortunately didn't save a copy, I've just gone back in to see if it's there but it's not although allows me to 'contact' again.
I will retake the photos tomorrow and send again, apologies I interpreted your previous message to 'get a photo taken from where you car was' as meaning literally where I would've been sat.
I can provide photos but the lights have all been affixed in their respective rooms now, with regards to where I unloaded to it was multiple rooms across three floors as with the lights I put them in their intended destination and the bulbs, bollards and gas supplies are still in boxes in the downstairs living area so I can photograph them
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After Micks and StamfordMan's responses I interpreted it as a lost hope so have already submitted a cobbled brief appeal based on what I've written in this thread so I'm not sure if it's irredeemable or worth exploring still
Well please shows us what you sent. DIY representations often cause more trouble than anything else, but we are where we are and the damage is seldom irremediable. The next step if they reject will be the Notice to Owner which you can challenge by making a formal representation, if that is rejected you can appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It's only at the TPT that you get a fair decision.
Also the photos you have taken are helpful but please could you please take two more from the edge of the kerb? We don't want to risk any accusation at the tribunal that you took photos from a "convenient" angle, as that could destroy your credibility.
Also could you provide photos of all the items you unloaded? It sounds like you had quite a bit of stuff and a couple of photos could illustrate this better than a description (you will also need receipts for all the items). It would also be helpful to know where you were unloading it to, for instance just by the door or upstairs or up to the loft?
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Thank you for all your responses.
@cp8759 please see attached photos of left and right from where the car was parked
@HCAndersen I do have receipts and can get a statement from the workmen if required, I had numerous items to drop off including three sinks, 10 ceiling lights and a two boxes of parking bollards all of which I have receipts for. I've just checked and also have an invoice from the Toolstation app which shows I placed an order at 12.12 and collected it at 12.23 for some bulbs to go with the lights and some gas cooker appliances.
There are two different groups of people working so I took the boxes inside then explained what each one was/for where.
After Micks and StamfordMan's responses I interpreted it as a lost hope so immediately after those submitted a cobbled brief appeal based on what I've written in this thread so I'm not sure if it's irredeemable or worth exploring still as I understand from previous posts that they will likely always reject an appeal and then it can be taken further.
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and had been to drop items off for the workmen on site. I understand I was overhanging the footpath but was careful not to enter the road whilst unloading which is evident in the photos, to my mind I have not committed a contravention as I was parked largely on my own property and did not cross the yellow line whatsoever.
At least you're better informed now about yellow lines, their meaning and extent of their restrictions e.g. physically being on the yellow line is not necessary for the contravention to occur.
IMO,
The law is that 'unloading*' is an exemption i.e. the restriction does not apply. But if a motorist claims this exemption then the burden of proof falls to them i.e. they have to prove** that their activities qualify for the exemption.
'had been to drop items off for the workmen on site' is insufficient. You have to establish that the goods were such that it was necessary to use a vehicle for their carriage, not just that it was convenient. In addition, that the vehicle was parked for no longer than necessary to unload* the items.
That the obs period was so short plays to your advantage. Had they observed for 15 minutes then you would be hard pushed to argue that you were parked for no longer than necessary given that the property was adjacent and didn't comprise 20 floors.
So, what were you unloading* and how could you prove this e.g. receipts, statements from the workmen etc?
*- unloading includes delivering which is actually whatyou were doing.
**- the standard of proof for an adjudicator is balance of probabilities. For some authorities it's that it was witnessed by God, and even then they'd probably want further corroboration!
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The first two answers seemed conclusive that I was in the wrong
apologies if I gave you the impression not to fight this. my comment was to merely point out the law so you were aware. when I said you were in definitley in contravention it was from the point of the extent of yellow line.
this doesn't mean there aren't exemptions or signage or TMO issues which are in your favor.
it appears there are.
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To answer your q's 1) I have no idea, I have never read the signage and don't recognise the photo location
@Leedsgirl94 the location is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/LUEMPGvqomyj2mLe8 and the sign would seem to be here https://maps.app.goo.gl/gBTSdjG1LwX1Sw6s5 and there's another sign here https://maps.app.goo.gl/R2TwJFQcSrP7S5Yj9
The distance between the two signs is thus 250 feet or thereabouts:
(https://i.imgur.com/9zS7fmI.png)
It would be helpful to get a photo taken from where you car was facing the direction of each of the signs.
A challenge based on the signage seems at least arguable. Whether you're "in the wrong" is largely irrelevant, the purpose of this forum is to help you determine if you are legally liable or whether you can mount a successful appeal.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "The first two answers seemed conclusive that I was in the wrong", either you were loading or you weren't and if you were, then we just need to substantive that. Even if you weren't loading, you could still have a winning appeal based on the signage, but it makes it easier for us to help you if you tell us whether you really were or not. If you were you need to articulate what took so long.
The council has committed itself to reoffering the discount if you make a representation by midnight on 7 February, so it would be a bit silly to give up and pay now. The real issue now seems to be whether you are actually interested in fighting the PCN or not?
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@Leedsgirl94 also is the location on the PCN correct? The CEO has put down "North Park Road, Harrogate" which would be somewhere along here https://maps.app.goo.gl/BjJHBYoFP6kQEQBJA but I can't see any single yellow line along that road, if he put the wrong road name then you have a winning appeal regardless of anything else.
As per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), you really should give us a link to the location on Google street view and the PCN number.
Apologies I have not used this forum before and wasn't aware of the rules, the road name is correct but the road is split into two locations which probably doesn't make sense unless you know it. I am unsure of how to add a google maps link but equally don't feel comfortable doing so given it would be directly on my property, apologies and appreciate if this makes it more difficult to advise; as seen in the photos I added there is a single yellow line on the street.
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@Leedsgirl94 no we are not going to delete your thread, we follow a long-standing principle not to allow people to delete their threads just because they don't like the advice being given.
That being said there are two obvious questions that come to mind:
1) How far is the sign from your car? I can't see any photos where the sign and the car are in the same photo, so there may be an issue around inadequate signage
2) The observation period is irrelevant: how long did it actually take you to unload?
I can also check if the traffic order creates a restriction at this location, but please answer the above first. If you're lucky, the traffic order might turn out not to exist.
Requesting deletion has nothing to do with 'not liking advice.' The first two answers seemed conclusive that I was in the wrong so I didn't feel there was anything else required if I'm in the wrong then I'm wrong and that's the end of it I have to pay for my error, additionally the pictures are identifying and I did not redact the street name or consider my privacy when making the request.
To answer your q's 1) I have no idea, I have never read or noticed the signage and don't recognise the photo location 2) I didn't set a timer but it wasn't more than 10 minutes I took the boxes inside and explained what each was then left
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@Leedsgirl94 also is the location on the PCN correct? The CEO has put down "North Park Road, Harrogate" which would be somewhere along here https://maps.app.goo.gl/BjJHBYoFP6kQEQBJA but I can't see any single yellow line along that road, if he put the wrong road name then you have a winning appeal regardless of anything else.
As per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), you really should give us a link to the location on Google street view and the PCN number.
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@Leedsgirl94 no we are not going to delete your thread, we follow a long-standing principle not to allow people to delete their threads just because they don't like the advice being given.
That being said there are two obvious questions that come to mind:
1) How far is the sign from your car? I can't see any photos where the sign and the car are in the same photo, so there may be an issue around inadequate signage
2) The observation period is irrelevant: how long did it actually take you to unload?
I can also check if the traffic order creates a restriction at this location, but please answer the above first. If you're lucky, the traffic order might turn out not to exist.
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Can you account for the 7 mins - that is rather long to be just dropping things off.
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Hi John,
Thank you for your response, yes I do have receipts including an order placed to collect at a DIY shop less than an hour before the alleged contravention.
Please see attached, unfortunately I've just seen he lists an observation period of 7 minutes on the ticket- I was genuinely dropping items off and as mentioned the officer knows I returned and stood waiting for him to issue the ticket which I took by hand
Best Wishes
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AS has been pointed out, as there appear to be no kerb blips, you should be able to claim exemption for unloading.
It would be helpful if you could post both sides of the unredacted PCN - ther are often mistakes in the 'small print'.
I intend to appeal but would appreciate any further specialist assistance which may be of use for me
It sounds as if you have a case, and you have time to wait for others to contribute - people are often off-line at weekends.
Before you can appeal you need to challenge the PCN, then if challenge rejected, wait for the NtO (Notice to Owner) and make reps against it - if those are rejected you can appeal to the Tribunal. Most Councils in rejecting the initial challenge (if made within the discount period) re-offer the discount as bait for people to throw in the towel.
Have you the receipt for the electrical goods?
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just to expand on what @stamf said.
the yellow line covers the road AND footway (pavement) upto the edge of your property so your car was very much in contravention.
I genuinely wasn't aware of that, thank you for the reply
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just to expand on what @stamf said.
the yellow line covers the road AND footway (pavement) upto the edge of your property so your car was very much in contravention.
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I don't live there so order materials to my personal residence and had taken these to unload, it was a range of lights, sockets and other electrical items
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The PCN is for waiting on a yellow line, which controls the entire road up to property boundaries.
Observation is just guidance for CEOs to check for exempt activity, and loading/unloading is an exemption.
Can you produce proof of what you unloaded? It being your house obviously helps here too.
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Hello
I have received a PCN from Harrogate Borough Council for the contravention of being 'parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.'
I have attached a photo of the online PCN details as well as three of the five uploaded photos. Firstly from research I believe that there should be a five minute observation period, the first photo was taken at 12.38 and the ticket issued at 12.41 which is less than 3 minutes, the ticket was handed to my hands as I left the property whilst he was issuing it.
For background I own the property I was parked at, there is a driveway to the side and parking to the front where you can see the van in one of the photos on the councils website, I have works on going and had been to drop items off for the workmen on site. I understand I was overhanging the footpath but was careful not to enter the road whilst unloading which is evident in the photos, to my mind I have not committed a contravention as I was parked largely on my own property and did not cross the yellow line whatsoever.
Two of the photos are nonsense close up angles of my car, I've uploaded one to show an example but not sure what the point in those being included on the PCN were.
I intend to appeal but would appreciate any further specialist assistance which may be of use for me
Thank you in advance!
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