Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: samosa on January 23, 2025, 05:31:05 pm
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NTO addressed to 'CEP Fleet, c/o BMW, Paddock Lane....'
The 'Redacted E Correspondence' ..reps from Jade Saunders, LCH Ltd, Centennial Park....
What the hell?
OP, Pl do the legwork with this evidence:
To whom was the NTO issued;
Who made the so-called representations;
Even the council's evidence states the 'Hirer' was 'BMW ix(D)?
'hirer': a person or company that pays to use something, such as a car or equipment, for a short time:[/i]
The representation grounds:
(d)the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—
(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement, and
(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging their liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any relevant road traffic contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement;
IMO, you might have signed a form, but IMO you DID NOT 'hire' the vehicle. You might be liable to the hire company UNDER CONTRACT LAW but not parking law.
Is my view.
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Any suggestions what I should do now (see my post below - reference Southwark council uploading their evidence)?
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Comments anyone?
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Hey everyone
Southwark council uploaded their evidence to the Tribunal portal (and served it to me by email) on 6th June 2025.
Here's the redacted version of everything:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TpO0hGVMrfJ187UO6RXbZ8KgwoGi8VpY?usp=sharing
The key points in summary are:
- I had a replacement vehicle provided to me by BMW whilst the company pool car was in the dealership for maintenance
- The replacement vehicle was hired by BMW through a specialist hire company. They delivered the vehicle to me and noted my details (name, address, drivers license copy etc) as the person the vehicle was released to.
- The car received a ticket issued by Southwark. Their photographic evidence shows the ticket attached to the vehicle. However, the PCN was not attached to the car when we returned to it. The first we knew a ticket had been issued was when the hire company notified us.
- I provided Southwark with details of my company who are legally responsible for the fine and who are willing to pay the PCN. However the LA demanded I provide a hire agreement. They refused to reissue the NTO and this is why we are now at this stage.
What do you suggest I do from here?
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@samosa Have you kept a record of all screenshots re status* of prices and dates? In my experience. this council say they serve evidence when they haven't so I would check the portal. Make up a reason and click continue which takes you to the page.
*It says this:
The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 very soon. Please pay £130.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Fri, 7 Mar 2025. You cannot make representations twice
This is an unlawful demand for money. Do you want me to represent you?
Case here
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/southwark-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-of-certain-types-of-vehicle/msg66338/#msg66338
***
This thread shows how aggrieved I am by all this:
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/attention-all-recipients-of-pcns-from-lambeth-lewisham-andor-southwark-proposed-/
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No unless the tribunal ask you anything wait until the council upload their evidence. If they don,t you win
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What does your NOA contain? You can check the Tribunal portal to view their evidence.
That doesn't appear to be any submission from the council. Below is a screenshot of everything I can see. It looks like only my initial submission is shown.
Is there something I should do at this stage?
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/JPms4N9DwQ13vRsbA)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JPms4N9DwQ13vRsbA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/JPms4N9DwQ13vRsbA)
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What does your NOA contain? You can check the Tribunal portal to view their evidence.
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The appeals process requires you to register an appeal at which stage you can submit skeleton grounds, as here.
The authority are then notified and required to submit their evidence.
At which point you may make what's known as 'further representations', in effect the substantive appeal.
You're at the first stage.
Come back when you've received confirmation that it's been registered.
Ok folks, the Tribunal Date has been set for 02/07/2025. I've not heard anything from Southwark council since the letter from the tribunal service (dated 23/04/2025).
What happens in the interim? Am I supposed to do anything, lodge any further supporting information?
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Please please screenshot the website page as if to challenge. Before you lodge the appeal.
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The appeals process requires you to register an appeal at which stage you can submit skeleton grounds, as here.
The authority are then notified and required to submit their evidence.
At which point you may make what's known as 'further representations', in effect the substantive appeal.
You're at the first stage.
Come back when you've received confirmation that it's been registered.
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Register an appeal:
Grounds:
b)the recipient—
(i)never was the owner of the vehicle in question,
and,
Procedural impropriety.
Just get it done pl. Elect for personal hearing(it'll be by video or phone).
You can make 'further representations' AKA supplementary points later to support/add to those in your original reps.
Let us know when your appeal is registered pl.
To be clear on the substantive legal point, it is the COUNCIL's burden to prove and not yours to rebut that you may be considered to be the keeper for the purposes of the Traffic Management Act.
Can't wait to see their evidence which they should upload to the tribunal website at least 7 days prior to the hearing and copy separately to you!
Many thanks for your reply. For the avoidance of doubt, I am submitting the following on the Notice of Appeal:
Section 5
- I was not the owner of the vehicle at the relevant time
and
There has been an procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority
Section 6 - Details of Appeal
I will explain that "I have provided the LA with the details of the Ltd company (my employer) who are responsible for any parking fines, but the council has been uncooperative and continued to pursue me"
Is that all correct or have I missed something?
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Register an appeal:
Grounds:
b)the recipient—
(i)never was the owner of the vehicle in question,
and,
Procedural impropriety.
Just get it done pl. Elect for personal hearing(it'll be by video or phone).
You can make 'further representations' AKA supplementary points later to support/add to those in your original reps.
Let us know when your appeal is registered pl.
To be clear on the substantive legal point, it is the COUNCIL's burden to prove and not yours to rebut that you may be considered to be the keeper for the purposes of the Traffic Management Act.
Can't wait to see their evidence which they should upload to the tribunal website at least 7 days prior to the hearing and copy separately to you!
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1. Take a screenshot of their payment status and report back.
2. You now have a NOR so you must decide to appeal or not.
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Any thoughts anyone?
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OP, for some reason I can't access the docs through the link in your first post.
Anyway, the council's letter states: 'if you do nothing..we will send you a Notice of Rejection..'
So, do nothing as regards Southwark and wait for the NOR.
This NTO is a total nonsense IMO.
As I see the key issues regarding procedure:
Your company leases a vehicle from BMW for the company's use subject to the Ts and Cs of the lease agreement between the parties, namely your company and BMW;
Within your company, this is allocated to you to drive subject to your company's terms and conditions;
I presume that BMW arrange for servicing;
The BMW/company Ts and Cs provide for a replacement vehicle when the lease vehicle is not available;
The vehicle went in for service, pursuant to BMW's arrangements and BMW hired a vehicle from wherever pursuant to the lease agreement Ts and Cs;
Question: did you collect this vehicle when you took the lease vehicle in to the nominated garage or was it delivered to you?
In either case, what documents did you personally sign? In the alternative, what
was signed by BMW and do you have copies of either?
You received a NTO dated *** with you named as addressee. Was this your name and personal address or name and company address?
OP, over to you.
Many thanks for replying. What you have assumed is broadly correct,
As you were unable to access the links provided originally, here a summary of everything to date together with fresh links to the relevant documents:
1. 22-11-2024
Here is the agreement I signed for the “Temporary Hire Car”. The document states that I (my personal name) am the "authorised driver”. It does not reference my Ltd company anywhere on the document.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w5u2YrMqf8teCP9RdzBP0mI2PnENPLn-/view?usp=sharing
Fortunately this document does make reference to “Customer Reg Number”. I have an invoice from the leasing company which matches the registration number shown in this document. But is that sufficient evidence to prove that the hire car was a temporary replacement for my leased car?
2. 24-11-24
The PCN is issued to the “Temporary Hire Car”. Whilst the photos provided by Southwark show the PCN attached to the windscreen, when I returned the ticket was nowhere to be seen. It was certainly NOT attached to the car.
3. 17-01-2025
Here's the 1st NTO issued to the company who owns the "Temporary Hire Car” which received the PCN :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WPka0mM-JbgWGNnDnCK-S4piIVWS2v4m/view?usp=sharing
4. 07-02-2025
The NTO was reissued to me (my personal name) - I presume this is because the hire company provided my name as the “driver of the vehicle”.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vqLfzKSPRXd28Mpd3xyBZoWRFJjBLe5n/view?usp=sharing
Whilst I acknowledge I was the driver of the vehicle, any parking fines were the responsibility of my LTD company:
5. 10-03-25
Southwark requested a copy of the “hire agreement” with my LTD company. However I have no such document. The only written correspondence I have is the agreement dated 22/11/2024 (see no. 1 above) which does not reference my LTD company (only reference my personal name as the driver of the vehicle)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wBN-8tUgCFLAW_cPHhS6GaXC9XolvlVi/view?usp=sharing
6. 24-03-2025
Notice of Rejection addressed to me (my personal name):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vpLVJKxFSxG17MQ9ueuogSwzie0QMJcX/view?usp=sharing
Where do I stand now? What action should I take now?
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OP, for some reason I can't access the docs through the link in your first post.
Anyway, the council's letter states: 'if you do nothing..we will send you a Notice of Rejection..'
So, do nothing as regards Southwark and wait for the NOR.
This NTO is a total nonsense IMO.
As I see the key issues regarding procedure:
Your company leases a vehicle from BMW for the company's use subject to the Ts and Cs of the lease agreement between the parties, namely your company and BMW;
Within your company, this is allocated to you to drive subject to your company's terms and conditions;
I presume that BMW arrange for servicing;
The BMW/company Ts and Cs provide for a replacement vehicle when the lease vehicle is not available;
The vehicle went in for service, pursuant to BMW's arrangements and BMW hired a vehicle from wherever pursuant to the lease agreement Ts and Cs;
Question: did you collect this vehicle when you took the lease vehicle in to the nominated garage or was it delivered to you?
In either case, what documents did you personally sign? In the alternative, what
was signed by BMW and do you have copies of either?
You received a NTO dated *** with you named as addressee. Was this your name and personal address or name and company address?
OP, over to you.
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Any suggestions anyone?
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Has a Notice to Owner been issued and received?
The NTO addressed to me (in my personal name was received in Feb 2025. I made the representation that I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time on their website and I provided my LTD company details as the party they should be addressing the PCN to. Southwark replied to me on 20/02/2025 requesting an hire agreement (suggesting they will not readdress the NTO without this) which I am unable to provide for the reasons explained in my previous post. I have yet to receive the NTO in my company name.
What should I do?
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Has a Notice to Owner been issued and received?
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Any suggestions anyone? :-\
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Excellent: a threat which will go against them! Stick it in the file. More than happy to deal with this one at the fifth set if necessary.
They are one of three with similar issues! Just won one v Lambeth today.
So here's the latest update.....
On 20/02/2025 I responded to Southwark with the following response:
"I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the contravention occurred
Reason: This vehicle has never been owned by me. I am not the owner of the vehicle. It is a hire car rented to XXXX Ltd, of XXXX address"
The "reason" option was a pre-populated option and could not be amended - hence I was unable to remove the "hire car rented to" part of the line. In place of the "XXXX" above I provided the details of my Ltd company.
On 10/03/2025 Southwark replied by email with the following letter:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing
I am unable to provide a hire agreement they have requested because the vehicle in question was a courtesy car provided by my BMW dealership whilst my company car went in for a recall/maintenance issue. However by the look of it, Southwark wont change the name on the PCN unless I give them what they want.
What shall I do now?
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So here's the latest update.....
On 20/02/2025 I responded to Southwark with the following response:
"I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the contravention occurred
Reason: This vehicle has never been owned by me. I am not the owner of the vehicle. It is a hire car rented to XXXX Ltd, of XXXX address"
The "reason" option was a pre-populated option and could not be amended - hence I was unable to remove the "hire car rented to" part of the line. In place of the "XXXX" above I provided the details of my Ltd company.
On 10/03/2025 Southwark replied by email with the following letter:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qipll7lAD_8Ovrj0H7aPUwzFgnaWSITc/view?usp=sharing)
I am unable to provide a hire agreement they have requested because the vehicle in question was a courtesy car provided by my BMW dealership whilst my company car went in for a recall/maintenance issue. However by the look of it, Southwark wont change the name on the PCN unless I give them what they want.
What shall I do now?
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Do I proceed as I suggested it should I be doing something different? Apologies for the naive question, how should I be responding to the local story authority?
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Excellent: a threat which will go against them! Stick it in the file. More than happy to deal with this one at the fifth set if necessary.
They are one of three with similar issues! Just won one v Lambeth today.
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Go tom their website and screenshot the payment status and report back please.
Here is a link to the screenshot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgTJ7LnlDwO68R_rFNFeYpMoFQNBK6JH/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgTJ7LnlDwO68R_rFNFeYpMoFQNBK6JH/view?usp=sharing)
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Go tom their website and screenshot the payment status and report back please.
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Ok here's the latest (interesting) update.....
I have (in the past few days) received the following PCN:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1llZvNfZjxA6xYO7dgfaJYFdm-X_OFaPk/view?usp=sharing
It appears that BMW/the hire company have provided my personal name & address - I presume because this is the only information they had on file. However, the car is, in fact, leased by my Ltd Company (of which I am a company director).
Since it is my LTD company which was the user of the vehicle at that time, I intend to submit a Representation that "I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention" together with my LTD company's details. Is this the right thing to do?
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OP, you wrote:
My car went in for a service near the end of November 2024. BMW issued me with a hire/courtesy car.
So whether you may be considered to be the 'owner' for the purposes of enforcement (in other words liable for the penalty) is a matter of fact and law.
You can only be liable if you are the 'hirer' and only then if there is a 'hiring agreement'. Sorry for all the quotation marks but these are terms defined in law.
From a quick scan of your post, I would say that you cannot be liable as regards parking legislation because you did not hire the car. The 'hiring agreement' was between the registered keeper and BMW(possibly even an insurance company). The car was simply allocated to you to drive as a courtesy.
So, what paperwork do you have regarding 'BMW issued me with a hire/courtesy car'?
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First of all you need an NtO in your company's name; only then can you submit representations. I suggest you mention that no PCN was found on the car, so you lost the opportunity to pay the discounted amount.
Don't forget that it they are very late serving the NtO, you may have the argument for Out-of-Time.
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In terms of timescales, the original PCN was served by a CEO to the car. There is then a period of 28 days for the PCN to be either paid or representations submitted. After expiry of this time period, the council can serve a Notice to Owner on the registered keeper of the car, which is the hire company. The hire company then have 28 days in which to submit reps on the basis of their being a hire company, naming your company as the hiring party on the date of the alleged contravention. The council, on receiving those reps, can then accept them and cancel the NtO and serve one on your company. They have 28 days from cancelling the first NtO to serve a second NtO.
The PCN was dated 24th November, so you can work out the approximate end date of the period within which they must serve an NtO on your company. At the moment, I don't think they are yet out-of-time.
You say you are expecting a PCN but it will be a Notice to Owner. May I assume the original PCN was never seen on the car ?
As for the possibility of grounds for a representation, the council photos show the car parked right next to the sign stating the bay is for permit holders only Mon-Sun 8.00am to 11.00pm. PCN is timed at 18.05, so well within the restricted period. A PCN is shown as on the car.
Thank you for explaining the process and time periods in which the notices are served.
You are absolutely correct in pointing out what you have referred to in respect of the the photos. I cannot express how silly I feel for not seeing the "Permit Holders only" signage. I saw the suspension notice and simply assumed it applied to pay & display. But given the suspension dates were in the future, I thought I was ok to park given how late it was in the evening. That is entirely my own error.
Whilst the photo clearly shows the ticket attached to the windscreen, what is odd, however, is that the ticket was not on the car when I returned to it. Had I received it then, I would have been on this portal sooner. I presume I have also lost out on the opportunity to pay a discounted rate now that it is at NTO stage? What would you suggest my options are now?
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In terms of timescales, the original PCN was served by a CEO to the car. There is then a period of 28 days for the PCN to be either paid or representations submitted. After expiry of this time period, the council can serve a Notice to Owner on the registered keeper of the car, which is the hire company. The hire company then have 28 days in which to submit reps on the basis of their being a hire company, naming your company as the hiring party on the date of the alleged contravention. The council, on receiving those reps, can then accept them and cancel the NtO and serve one on your company. They have 28 days from cancelling the first NtO to serve a second NtO.
The PCN was dated 24th November, so you can work out the approximate end date of the period within which they must serve an NtO on your company. At the moment, I don't think they are yet out-of-time.
You say you are expecting a PCN but it will be a Notice to Owner. May I assume the original PCN was never seen on the car ?
As for the possibility of grounds for a representation, the council photos show the car parked right next to the sign stating the bay is for permit holders only Mon-Sun 8.00am to 11.00pm. PCN is timed at 18.05, so well within the restricted period. A PCN is shown as on the car.
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Need your guidance on the following please.
My car went in for a service near the end of November 2024. BMW issued me with a hire/courtesy car.
Yesterday (24/01/2025) I received an email notification from the hire company together with a PCN (link below).
PCN:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WPka0mM-JbgWGNnDnCK-S4piIVWS2v4m/view?usp=sharing
The hire company have "made a representation to the issuer and transfer liability to you as the hirer of the vehicle. The PCN should then be reissued to you directly for resolution"
I am currently waiting for the PCN to be reissued by Southwark to my Ltd company.
This shouldn't make a difference to the matter, but whilst writing and for the sake of completeness, the car is leased to my Ltd company. I am the company director.
Photographic evidence provide by the council is available here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EvL0KhHvucHRq4qABgySRilMRxrfEAhf?usp=sharing
Given the time that has lapsed, is the council out of time to issue the NTO? Are their any other grounds to dispute this PCN please?
Thank you in advance for your guidance.
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