Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: gme on January 23, 2025, 11:20:20 am

Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on May 15, 2025, 07:10:45 pm
I was kind of hoping for more of a response regarding the other points, so I could then take it to Meadowhall and request they do change the stupid terms and provide an explanation as to who exactly the landowner is. Oh well, they’ve lost me as a regular customer, I have since switched to a different M&S for my weekly groceries and no long spend money on bits and bobs there, shopping was a leisure but I go elsewhere now, I know I won’t make much of a dent to their funds but it’s the principle!
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on May 15, 2025, 04:12:55 pm
Good result.

I'm speculating here, of course, but this seems like a classic example of an assessor choosing the least controversial ground to uphold, to avoid having to assess on the other points. If they allow the appeal on the basis of no signage about the changed terms, it means they don't have to address the much more fundamental issue of the bizarre alleged contract. If they'd had to rule on that, they'd have been stuck between trying to come up with an explanation as to why it was a reasonable term, or upholding your appeal and essentially saying that the entire set-up is entirely unenforceable.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on May 15, 2025, 03:55:42 pm
Assessor summary of operator case
The operator has issued the parking charge notice (PCN) as the vehicle exceeded 14 hours maximum combined stay over any one week (Monday to Sunday) period.

Assessor summary of your case
The appellant has provided a detailed account of events. For the purpose of my report, I have summarised the grounds into the following points and have checked each point before coming to my conclusion. The appellant says that: 1. Failure to highlight a material change in terms. 2. Lack of adequate signage to notify regular users of new restrictions. 3. Unfair and impractical contract terms. 4. Lack of landholder authority. 5. Failure to comply with POFA 2012. The appellant reiterated their version of events in the motorist’s comments section. The appellant included photographic evidence of their lack of signage in the car park to prove the change in the terms and conditions were adequately communicated (times nine) in support of their appeal. I have considered this in my decision.

Assessor supporting rational for decision
I have allowed this appeal for the following reason: In this case, it is not clear who the driver of the appellant’s vehicle is, so I must consider the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, as the operator issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the keeper of the vehicle. The operator has provided me with a copy of the notice to keeper sent to the appellant. I have reviewed the notice to keeper against the relevant sections of PoFA 2012 and I am satisfied that it is compliant. I will therefore be assessing the appellant’s liability as the keeper of the vehicle. By issuing the appellant with a PCN, the operator has implied that the appellant has not complied with the terms and conditions of the car park in question. The burden of proof lies with the operator to provide POPLA with clear, sufficient evidence to demonstrate that the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been issued correctly. In this case, the operator has issued the PCN as the vehicle exceeded 14 hours maximum combined stay over any one week (Monday to Sunday) period. After very careful consideration of the appellant's grounds of appeal, photographic evidence and the operator's evidence pack I can see the signage in the car park only shows one sign telling motorists of the change to the terms and conditions in the car park. Section 3.4 of the Code says that when there is a material change to pre-existing terms of a car park, then additional temporary signs must be placed at the entrance to the car park for a period of no less than four months from the date of the change to make that clear. I can see from the evidence pack, the operator states that ‘multiple’ temporary new terms and conditions signs have gone up around the car park, however, only photographic evidence of one such sign was provided and no actual number of how many signs in the evidence pack to back up that claim. I would at least expect the parking operator to list the amount of new temporary signs that were erected around the car park entrances to advise of the change to the terms and conditions of the car park. However, proof of this would be preferred to adequately rebut the appellant's main ground of appeal. Especially as it is such a large site with around 12000 parking spaces and what would be a number of entrances to the car park for the many regular users of the site. It is within the operator's gift to ensure their evidence pack has sufficient information and photographic evidence to adequately rebut the appellant's grounds of appeal about the change in the terms and conditions, but in this case their rebuttal is not sufficient. Therefore, I do not feel the operator has issued the PCN correctly and must allow this appeal. In conclusion, I can see that the appellant has referenced other points within their appeal to POPLA, but I do not feel that these need to be reviewed based on the outcome reached.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on May 15, 2025, 03:44:38 pm
Great news - could you please provide us with a copy of the assessment comments?

Well done!
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on May 15, 2025, 03:26:42 pm
Just like to add that I’ve received a POPLA decision and won! The comments from the reviewer basically state that there was insufficient signage to notify users of material changes, Minster Baywatch provided evidence of the actual parking terms but never stated how many signs were introduced warning visitors of new rules being imposed. I provided evidence that there was only one sign at the entrance of some of the car parks, which is insufficient for a destination with multiple car parks and 12,000 spaces.

The rest of the argument regarding the landowner and other issues was disregarded as the above evidence was sufficient enough to win the appeal.

Thanks for all the support and help!
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on March 06, 2025, 02:23:12 pm
Thanks all for some solid advice, I’ve taken this onboard and drafted up these revised comments, though I’m not sure if I’m including points missed in the original appeal (i.e. specifically differentiating between two drivers, I don’t think I mentioned that outright), I know POPLA state they won’t consider new evidence so I’m not sure if this counts as evidence or is simply a comment in response to Minster’s evidence pack. 

What an absolute minefield to have to navigate all for the crime of being a regular customer for the past ~20 years. Safe to say neither me nor the driver(s) will ever go back while these rules are in force, I used to personally spend ~£2-3k there every year as I do my weekly food shop, buy all toiletries, dine out, and visit a handful of high street & independent shops they have but if they want to swap all of that for a one off £100 instead, more fool them.

Dear POPLA Adjudicator,

I am submitting my comments on Minster Baywatch’s evidence in relation to my appeal against the Parking Charge Notice (PCN). I maintain that the charge is unfair, unenforceable, and should be cancelled based on the following legal and procedural grounds:



1. The Terms of the Alleged Contract are Unreasonable, Ambiguous, and Impossible to Enforce

Minster Baywatch alleges that the vehicle exceeded a 14-hour total parking limit within a rolling 7-day period. However, this restriction is fundamentally flawed and unenforceable for the following reasons:
   •   A parking contract exists only between the driver and the parking operator at the time of parking. Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) allows for liability to be transferred to the keeper, but it does not alter the fact that a contract can only be formed with the driver at the time of each visit.
   •   Minster Baywatch cannot prove that the same driver was responsible for each visit. This means they are attempting to enforce a contractual term against a driver who may not have been aware of prior visits.
   •   The signage does not specify whether the restriction applies to the driver or the vehicle. Under Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, if a contractual term can have multiple meanings, the interpretation most favorable to the consumer must apply. The most favorable interpretation here is that the restriction applies to a single continuous stay rather than cumulative visits.
   •   This restriction requires motorists to track all visits made by their vehicle over a rolling week and to know how long any previous driver has stayed. This is an unreasonable and impractical burden, making compliance impossible and the contract unenforceable.

It is entirely preposterous to suggest that a later driver of the vehicle is somehow responsible for cumulative time accrued by previous drivers. If POPLA upholds such an illogical enforcement mechanism, it risks undermining consumer protections and fair industry practices.



2. Failure to Provide Adequate Notice of Material Changes

Minster Baywatch claims that new parking restrictions were introduced, but they have not provided sufficient evidence that these changes were clearly communicated to motorists, particularly regular visitors. Under consumer protection laws and industry standards, material changes must be prominently displayed to ensure all users are aware of the updated terms.
   •   BPA Code of Practice Section 19.10 – This requires temporary signage to be used when significant changes occur. Minster Baywatch has not provided evidence of clear, prominent temporary notices.
   •   Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015) – Section 62 states that contract terms (including parking restrictions) must be fair and transparent. A sudden change in parking terms without clear, advance notification to regular customers is likely unfair and unenforceable.
   •   Case Law: Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1971] – A motorist cannot be bound by unexpected terms unless they had a reasonable opportunity to be aware of them before parking. Minster Baywatch has not proven that regular motorists had such an opportunity.
   •   Dashcam footage provided in my original appeal shows that a motorist can enter several of Meadowhall’s large multi-storey car parks without encountering any clear warnings about new restrictions. This means a regular visitor, particularly one who may use different car parks, is not adequately informed.

Minster Baywatch also claims:

“If a driver does not agree with a term noted on signage, the driver is able to reject the terms by promptly leaving the site.”

This argument is invalid if drivers are not sufficiently informed of the new terms in the first place.



3. Landowner Authority – Lack of a Valid Contract at the Time of the Alleged Contravention

Minster Baywatch has provided a contract variation agreement dated April 2024 between themselves and British Land (Meadowhall GP Limited). However, this does not prove they had the authority to issue PCNs at the time of the alleged contravention in January 2025, for the following reasons:
   •   British Land sold its 50% stake in Meadowhall to Norges Bank Investment Management in July 2024. This means British Land was no longer a legal owner of the land at the time of the alleged contravention.
   •   The contract variation agreement provided by Minster Baywatch was signed before British Land exited its ownership role, and there is no evidence that the new owner (Norges Bank) agreed to continue this contract.
   •   BPA Code of Practice Section 7 requires that an operator must have a valid and current contract with the landowner at the time of issuing PCNs. Minster Baywatch has not provided a valid contract with Norges Bank, the rightful landowner in January 2025.

Unless Minster Baywatch can provide an unredacted contract proving that Norges Bank Investment Management explicitly authorised them to enforce parking at the time of the alleged contravention, then they had no legal standing to issue this PCN.



4. Non-Compliance with Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012

Minster Baywatch claims the PCN was POFA-compliant, but the Notice to Keeper (NTK) was not delivered in accordance with POFA timelines:
   •   The PCN was issued on 8th January 2025 but was not received until 22nd January 2025. POFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(5) states that for liability to transfer to the keeper, the NTK must be delivered within 14 days.
   •   Minster Baywatch admits they do not send letters tracked, making it impossible to verify compliance with POFA deadlines. The burden of proof is on the operator, and they have failed to demonstrate that the NTK was delivered on time.

Since POFA requirements have not been met, keeper liability cannot be established.



Conclusion

For the reasons above, I respectfully request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel this Parking Charge Notice. The charge is unenforceable due to:
   1.   The unreasonable and impractical nature of the alleged contract, which requires an impossible burden on drivers.
   2.   Failure to provide proper notice of material changes, in violation of BPA Code of Practice and consumer law.
   3.   Unproven landowner authority, as British Land sold Meadowhall before the alleged contravention and Minster Baywatch has not provided proof of a contract with the new owners.
   4.   Non-compliance with POFA 2012, meaning keeper liability does not apply.

This charge is fundamentally flawed, unreasonable, and unenforceable. I trust that POPLA will uphold fair consumer practices and allow this appeal.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on March 05, 2025, 09:28:55 am
I agree - I think leading with the unreasonable terms is wise. The other points are valid, and sensible to include as additional reasons no money is owed, but I'd be minded to start with the nature of the alleged contract and the impossibility of performance.

I'd also throw in something about this that I mentioned further back in the thread:

The parties to a parking contract are the driver and the parking operator. Whilst Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act provides a mechanism to recover unpaid charges from the keeper, that does not alter the parties between whom the contract was formed.

In light of this, I'm not sure what evidence Minster Baywatch could produce to show that the driver was the same on each occasion, and that any driver has exceeded the 14 hours per week limit.

The signage is silent as to whether the 14 hours applies to the driver or the vehicle, which brings to mind the following from the Consumer Rights Act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/2):

69 Contract terms that may have different meanings

(1)If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.
[/i]
[/i]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: H C Andersen on March 05, 2025, 09:09:22 am
I can't edit my last post...

..but the thought that a 'relevant contract' could have been entered into by tail-end-charlie is, frankly, laughable.

“relevant contract” means a contract (including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land) between the driver and a person who is—
(a)
the owner or occupier of the land; or

(b)
authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land;

“relevant land” has the meaning given by paragraph 3;
“relevant obligation” means—
(a)
an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or

(b)
an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land;
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: H C Andersen on March 04, 2025, 06:35:06 pm
Personally I think you've got the focus wrong.

POPLA always start with whether a PCN has been issued correctly, so IMO start there.

The creditor's modus operandi is unlawful. Contract terms can only bind an individual driver on each single occasion that they enter and remain on a site. This is a a relatively simple matter to ascertain when a penalty charge arises as a result of a single visit.

But this is not the case here.

Instead this creditor believes that they may issue a PCN when a VRM has accumulated more than 14 hours on site within any 7-day rolling week. Such an approach requires them to KNOW, not suspect or guess but KNOW, that each and every entry by a specified vehicle must have been made by the same driver. This is impossible for them to know.

By issuing a PCN based solely upon cumulative uses of the site by a vehicle the creditor is forcing the last driver to be aware of what other drivers might have done and for how long.

This is a preposterous concept.

If the BPA and POPLA endorse such sharp practice then they bring themselves and the industry into disrepute.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on March 04, 2025, 05:02:51 pm
Here's my final draft of my comments as part of the POPLA appeal, in response to Minster Baywatch's comments. I'm not sure if it looks too much like a copy and past of my original appeal so any feedback welcome.

Dear POPLA Adjudicator,

I am submitting my comments on Minster Baywatch’s evidence in relation to my appeal against the Parking Charge Notice (PCN). I maintain that the charge is unfair, unenforceable, and should be cancelled based on the following legal and procedural grounds:

1. Failure to Comply with BPA Code of Practice

Minster Baywatch states that their signage meets BPA standards, yet they have not demonstrated compliance with Section 19.10 of the BPA Code of Practice, which requires operators to use temporary signage when significant changes occur.
   •   Minster Baywatch has not provided sufficient photos of temporary notices or large, prominent signs at the entrance specifically informing visitors of the new maximum stay rules.
   •   Close-up photos of the car park terms provided by Minster Baywatch are difficult to read due to small font, indicating they are not displayed prominently enough.
   •   As a regular visitor for at least 9 years, the driver had a legitimate expectation that the parking terms remained unchanged. The operator should have provided temporary notices at entry points and inside Meadowhall to ensure existing customers were fully aware.
   •   The dashcam footage I provided shows it is possible to enter multiple Meadowhall car parks without any clear warning of the new terms, meaning regular visitors—especially those using different car parks—are not adequately informed of the 14-day combined visit restriction.

A failure to follow BPA signage guidelines means this charge should be deemed unenforceable under the POPLA principle of fairness.

2. Failure to Provide Adequate Notice of Material Changes

Minster Baywatch claims that new parking restrictions were introduced, but they have not provided sufficient evidence that these changes were clearly communicated to motorists, particularly regular visitors. Under consumer protection laws and industry standards, material changes must be prominently displayed to ensure all users are aware of the updated terms.
   •   Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015) – Under Section 62, contract terms (including parking restrictions) must be fair and transparent. A sudden change in parking terms without clear, advance notification to regular customers is likely unfair and unenforceable.
   •   Case Law – Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1971] – A motorist cannot be bound by unexpected terms unless they had a reasonable opportunity to be aware of them before parking. Minster Baywatch has not provided evidence that motorists were given adequate notice of the changes before forming a contract.

Additionally, Minster Baywatch’s own photos of the Pink Car Park entrance clearly show no additional temporary signage warning motorists of new material changes—further violating the consumer laws and BPA Code of Practice mentioned above.

Minster Baywatch also states:

   “If a driver does not agree with a term noted on signage, the driver is able to reject the terms by promptly leaving the site.”

However, regular customers are not adequately warned of these new terms to be fairly given a chance to accept or reject them.

3. Landowner Authority – Lack of Valid Contract

Minster Baywatch has provided a contract variation agreement dated April 2024, signed between themselves and British Land (Meadowhall GP Limited). However, this document does not prove they had the authority to issue PCNs at the time of the alleged contravention in January 2025 for the following reasons:
   •   British Land sold its 50% stake in Meadowhall to Norges Bank Investment Management in July 2024. This means British Land was no longer a legal owner of the land at the time of the alleged contravention.
   •   The contract variation agreement provided by Minster Baywatch was signed before British Land exited its ownership role, and there is no evidence that the new owner (Norges Bank Investment Management) agreed to continue this contract.
   •   It is well established in parking appeals and under BPA Code Section 7 that a parking operator must have a valid and current contract with the landowner at the time of issuing PCNs. The evidence submitted does not prove that Norges Bank Investment Management authorised Minster Baywatch to operate on the site after British Land’s sale.

I request that Minster Baywatch provide an unredacted contract between them and Norges Bank Investment Management (the rightful landowner from July 2024 onwards) proving they had authorisation to enforce parking terms at the time of the alleged contravention.

If they cannot provide such evidence, then they had no legal standing to issue this PCN, and it must be cancelled.

4. Non-Compliance with Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012

Minster Baywatch claims the PCN was POFA-compliant, but the Notice to Keeper (NTK) was not delivered in accordance with POFA timelines:
   •   The PCN was issued on 8th January 2025, but was not received until 22nd January 2025. POFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(5) states that for liability to transfer to the keeper, the NTK must be delivered within 14 days.
   •   Minster Baywatch admits they do not send letters tracked, making it impossible to verify compliance with POFA deadlines. As the burden of proof is on the operator, the charge cannot be enforced against the keeper.

Conclusion

For the reasons above, I respectfully request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel this Parking Charge Notice. The charge is unfair due to:
   •   A lack of proper notice of material changes
   •   Failure to comply with BPA Code requirements
   •   Uncertainty over landowner authority
   •   Non-compliance with POFA 2012

I appreciate your time in reviewing this appeal.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on March 03, 2025, 02:16:14 pm
Yes it’s Minster Baywatch with their registered address which is a PO Box in York

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: Dave65 on March 02, 2025, 01:54:19 pm
Was there a copy of the back of the PPN posted stating who to pay the charge to?
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on March 02, 2025, 12:38:59 am
You will have to argue whether the signs “adequately” serve their purpose. They don’t.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on March 01, 2025, 08:27:08 pm
I mean the main argument is that there’s not enough to indicate a change of the rules, right? There’s several car parks, in my evidence I included proof that some don’t have signs notifying of material changes, so as the driver was a regular customer it’s reasonable to assume they weren’t reasonably made aware, in MB’s evidence they show one sign showing that there’s a change to terms but for a car park of that scale one sign, on some of the entrances, shouldn’t be sufficient. They also state that the customer could leave if they don’t agree with the terms but how could the customer leave if there wasn’t sufficient attempt to let them know that the terms have changed.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on March 01, 2025, 03:55:31 pm
There's no harm in throwing it in by all means, but it is worth noting that pragmatically it's one that hasn't met with much success previously. From memory, Bargepole had argued it ~6 times without success.

It'd be one to include as part of a broader defence led by more compelling points, in my view.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on March 01, 2025, 02:46:25 pm
It is all down to how well the point is argued at POPLA and in court. Providing only a PO Box address is not compliant with the Consumer Rights Act 2015, the Companies (Trading Disclosures) Regulations 2008, and the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013.

This is the legal position:

• Because the signage forms part of the contract, it must comply with the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015) and other consumer laws.

• Contracts must be fair and transparent under CRA 2015. A PO Box address hides the true identity of the business, which makes the contract unfair and unenforceable.

• Businesses must provide a real address, not just a PO Box, under the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013.

• If the parking company is a limited company, they must display their registered office address under the Companies (Trading Disclosures) Regulations 2008.

If the signage does not meet legal requirements, it invalidates the contract, making any PCNs issued under it unenforceable.

Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on March 01, 2025, 10:54:10 am
The PO Box argument isn't one that POPLA go for. We've had a discussion about this issue in the past - when I'm back at my computer I'll dig it out.

From memory, one of the regulars on the MSE forum has tried it in court a few times with different judges without success.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: Dave65 on March 01, 2025, 10:31:19 am
I`m going to throw this one into the pot for the regulars to comment on.

The "Blackbelt barrister" on his videos on U Tube and one of his videos on parking charges he said that a contract could not be made which included a post office box number as the companies address.  This he said was under the consumer rights act.

The signage shown on this car park gives Minster Baywatch as a post office box address.

However, their address at Companies House is a normal geographical address.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on February 28, 2025, 07:39:14 pm
Me again; the amended document increasing the contract period is signed by British land who sold their last shares in Meadowhall last year if that’s any relevance
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on February 28, 2025, 07:26:06 pm
https://imgur.com/a/w6QQa9y

Here’s everything relating to the contract they sent, it’s a little low res as I’ve had to screen shot it as I’m away with work so only have phone access
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on February 28, 2025, 05:25:29 pm
Can you host the operators evidence pack somewhere so we can see it all?
DropBox and Google Drive are both good options.

I too would like to see the full landowner contract. I have some experience in dealing with contract variations in my day job, but these are signed before the conclusion of the original contract, and the original contract usually contains some reference to the fact that it may be amended by a variation at some later stage.

I should have some time later in the weekend to have a more thorough look.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on February 28, 2025, 05:05:04 pm
Can you host the operators evidence pack somewhere so we can see it all? The extracts you have show are useful, but more of the landowner contract would be worthwhile.

From what you have shown, the original contract was valid only for an expressed period with validity from 1st October 1998 and expressed expiration on 30th September 2021. I do not see anywhere in what you've shown us that there was any automatic renewal. As such, their contract with the landowner expired on 30th September 2021.

The "variation agreement" signed by British Land on behalf of the landowner appears to be an attempt to retrospectively resurrect an expired contract. Since the original contract had an explicit expiry date of 30th September 2021 and did not contain any provision for automatic renewal or continuation, any argument that it continued by implied contract is legally weak.

If a contract has a fixed term and the parties wish to continue it, they must actively renew it or create a new contract before expiry. A contract cannot be revived simply by continued performance unless both parties agree that their conduct amounts to a new contract on identical terms. The courts are unlikely to infer a binding implied contract when the written agreement explicitly set an end date with no renewal provisions.

For an implied contract to exist, there must be mutual intention to continue on the same or new terms. Even if both Minster BayWatch and the landowner continued their arrangement, there is no evidence they agreed to identical terms.

Did they negotiate different terms after September 2021? Were invoices issued and paid under the original contract terms, or were they renegotiated? Was there any written confirmation from either party acknowledging the contract had expired but was continuing informally? Without these, any claim of an implied contract is speculative.

The "Variation Agreement" is even more problematic. The January 2024 variation retroactively attempts to extend the contract long after expiry. If the contract had already expired in 2021, it was legally dead. The variation agreement cannot amend a contract that no longer exists. A variation can only modify an active contract, not revive an expired one.

you can argue that the material changes to the terms and conditions that they conveniently admit to, undermine the claim that the contract simply continued unchanged. The operator may argue that they have been in place since 2018, implying continuity.
However, if the terms and conditions changed significantly within the last 4 months, this suggests a new contract or renegotiation, not a simple continuation of the old contract. A genuine implied contract must have identical terms—if key terms changed, it’s evidence that a new contract was needed.

This all creates doubt about whether Minster BayWatch had landowner authority when issuing the PCN on 4th January 2025. They have confirmed that material changes were introduced and displayed on signs at the car park entrance. If the contract was a straightforward continuation, why were these changes needed? Significant changes suggest a renegotiation or new agreement, rather than an automatic extension of the 2018 contract.

Minster BaWatch needs to provide clear evidence of valid landowner authority for the new terms—not just rely on a flawed extension argument. Without proof of an active, valid contract covering the date of the alleged contravention (4th January 2025), their legal standing is questionable.

Any PCNs issued by Minster BayWatch after 30th September 2021 could be unenforceable if they cannot prove valid landowner authority.

All this and other failures by Minster BayWatch to answer questions raised in your appeal and your rebuttal to their evidence will have to be formulated so that it can be copied and pasted into the POPLA webform response which is limited to 10,000 characters. Leave it with me. If anyone else cares to have a look at what has been provided so far, and can see other failures by the operator, post them here.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on February 28, 2025, 03:44:45 pm
So I’ve had a reply to the POPLA appeal, it’s 80 pages so I’ll attach their response, plus some example photos they’ve included, and the documents they’ve attached. There’s a document signed from Broadgate estates and I’ve no idea who they are in relation to Meadowhall, I assume something to do with landowner authority. If other pages from the 80 page response are required please let me know, but if there’s any suggestion on what comments I can make I’d appreciate the help.

https://imgur.com/a/vbmndqT
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: H C Andersen on February 21, 2025, 05:10:17 pm
The driver was the same person on both occasions, and there is CCTV evidence to back this up. I’m not sure whether this CCTV belongs to Minster Baywatch or the landowner but it’s my understanding they would have access to it to confirm the driver is the same person.

Why would you want to give this game away?

Have you seen the evidence?

IMO, your starting point should be the impossibility of performance for any driver and the absurdity of the restriction.

Their premise is that EVERY time a vehicle enters the site the same person must be driving. What utter nonsense. I don't normally like the 'predatory conduct' term because in the main PPCs are doing what they're paid to do. But here I think it's justified. There is NO basis on which to assume - and act on this assumption by requesting keeper info from DVLA and issuing a PCN to the keeper- that every time vehicle A enters the site it must be(not may be, but must be) driven by the same person.

They have to convince POPLA and ultimately a court that this approach is reasonable. Good luck with that.

This deals with the principle. You've gone further by acknowledging that in your case their guess was correct.

Why?
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on February 21, 2025, 12:29:31 pm
Brilliant, thanks for all your help. I've done some more reading about it and while it's not on the car park terms in the car parks, Meadowhall have repeatedly spoken to the press about it and said they'll remove it for any genuine customers, you just need proof that you were a customer for 14+ hours over the course of the week. Which seems backwards, fine everyone first, cause undue stress, then if they happen to have read online about it, allow them to appeal directly with them. It's almost like they don't want customers!
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on February 20, 2025, 08:08:09 pm
Here it is revised with the landowner contract section:

Quote
POPLA Appeal – Minster Baywatch Parking Charge Notice

Parking Charge Reference: [XXXXXXX] 
Operator: Minster Baywatch 
Alleged Contravention: Exceeding a 14-hour combined stay over a one-week period 
Vehicle Registration: [XXXXXXX] 

Minster Baywatch issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to my vehicle for allegedly breaching a recently introduced “14-hour maximum combined stay over any one-week period” rule at a Meadowhall car park. As the registered keeper, I formally appeal this charge on the following grounds: 

1. Failure to Highlight Material Changes 

Minster Baywatch introduced a new parking restriction—the 14-hour maximum combined stay over a week—without adequately notifying regular visitors. This is a material change to the parking terms, yet the operator has buried it within existing signage in the same small font, colour, and style, making it indistinguishable from prior terms. 

This breaches Section 3.4 of the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), which requires operators to: 

• Clearly signal material changes at the entrance and throughout the site. 
• Use temporary notices, bold text, bright colours, or other prominent means for at least four months to ensure awareness.
 

Minster Baywatch has failed to implement any of these requirements, making enforcement of this newly introduced rule both unfair and unenforceable. 

Additionally, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) requires contract terms to be transparent and prominent. Burying a major new restriction in small print violates Schedule 2 of the CRA, rendering the term unenforceable against consumers. 

2. Inadequate Notification of Material Changes 

Minster Baywatch has not provided evidence of when the 14-hour combined stay rule was introduced. Based on available information, this change likely took effect in December 2024. Under PPSCoP Section 3.4, the operator was required to: 

• Place temporary notices at all site entrances for a minimum of four months following the change. 
• Ensure existing customers are made explicitly aware of new restrictions to prevent inadvertent breaches.
 

Meadowhall has multiple multi-storey car parks, accommodating approximately 12,000 vehicles. The sheer scale of the site means that a single temporary notice at one entrance is insufficient

I personally visited the site, capturing dashcam footage which confirms no signage at car park entrances alerts users to any updated terms. Dated screenshots from two separate visits show that motorists can enter the car park without seeing any notification of the rule change. Full video footage is available for review. 

By failing to clearly notify motorists of a material change, Minster Baywatch is non-compliant with the PPSCoP, further undermining the enforceability of this charge. 

3. Unfair and Impractical Contractual Terms 

The 14-hour combined weekly limit is an unfair and impractical contractual term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) because: 

• It requires motorists to track cumulative parking durations across multiple visits over seven days, something most visitors do not and cannot reasonably do
• If the vehicle is used by multiple drivers, compliance is practically impossible unless all users meticulously record each visit. 
• Meadowhall is a large shopping and leisure complex, where customers visit for various activities (shopping, cinema, restaurants, and more). Expecting visitors to manually calculate their cumulative parking over a week is unrealistic and disproportionate.
 

This term creates a significant imbalance between motorists and the parking operator, making it unfair under Schedule 2 of the CRA. A term that cannot be reasonably followed by the average consumer is inherently unenforceable

Additionally, expecting customers to track cumulative parking durations over multiple calendar years (e.g., one visit in 2024 and one in 2025) is absurd, further proving that this term is both excessive and unreasonable. 

4. No Evidence of Landholder Authority 

Minster Baywatch has not provided evidence that it has landholder authority to issue and enforce parking charges. The operator is put to strict proof, by means of contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority flowing from the landholder to the operator. 

There is no evidence that Minster Baywatch: 

• Has adhered to the landholder’s definitions, exemptions, grace periods, or hours of operation. 
• Has been granted authority to enforce parking charges in its own name, rather than acting as a mere agent. 
• Has the right to override landowner decisions regarding complaints and charge cancellations.
 

Minster Baywatch must provide an unredacted copy of its landholder contract, including any site agreements or manuals defining: 

• Exemptions (e.g., for genuine customers or residents). 
• Boundaries of enforcement and operational start/expiry dates. 
• The landowner’s ability to cancel charges.
 

A witness statement alone is insufficient evidence, as such statements are often pre-signed, generic documents that fail to reference specific site terms. If Minster Baywatch lacks full proprietary rights over the land, then it cannot establish standing to pursue this charge. 

5. Non-Compliance with POFA 2012 – Operator Fails to Establish Keeper Liability

Minster Baywatch has failed to meet the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), meaning keeper liability cannot be established. Specifically: 

• The Notice to Keeper (NtK) was issued on 8th January but not received until 22nd January, well beyond the mandatory 14-day timeframe required under POFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(5). 
• The NtK was sent via untracked post, meaning there is no guaranteed evidence of when it entered the postal system or that it was delivered in accordance with POFA’s strict timeframe.
 

The PPSCoP Section 8.1.2(e), Note 2 states: 

Quote
Therefore, parking operators must retain a record of the date of posting of a notice, not simply of that notice having been generated (e.g. the date that any third-party Mail Consolidator actually put it in the postal system).
 

Minster Baywatch is now put to strict proof that the NtK was actually entered into the postal system on the date claimed. They must provide: 

• A postal log from their mail processor confirming dispatch. 
• A Royal Mail or mail consolidator statement proving when the notice was posted.
 

A certificate of posting by hybrid mail receipt by the bulk mailing consolidator is not evidence of when the notice was actually entered into the postal system and only shows when the notice was sent to the consolidator.

Without strict proof, presumed delivery timelines under POFA do not apply, and Minster Baywatch cannot establish keeper liability. Since POPLA is bound by POFA compliance, this alone is sufficient to cancel the PCN. 

Conclusion 

This PCN is unenforceable due to Minster Baywatch’s: 

• Failure to highlight a material change in terms. 
• Lack of adequate signage to notify regular users of new restrictions. 
• Unfair and impractical contract terms. 
• Lack of landholder authority. 
• Failure to comply with POFA 2012.
 

For these reasons, I respectfully request that POPLA uphold this appeal and instruct Minster Baywatch to cancel the Parking Charge Notice.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on February 20, 2025, 07:44:02 pm
Agreed - it's a very well written appeal.

I wonder if it is worth us throwing in landowner authority into the mix, given the usual Minster Baywatch/Branby Wilson switcheroo?
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on February 20, 2025, 07:29:36 pm
It is very good. I have taken the liberty to enhance it slightly and flesh out the 5th section about PoFA:

Quote
POPLA Appeal – Minster Baywatch Parking Charge Notice

Parking Charge Reference: [XXXXXXX] 
Operator: Minster Baywatch 
Alleged Contravention: Exceeding a 14-hour combined stay over a one-week period 
Vehicle Registration: [XXXXXXX] 

Minster Baywatch issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to my vehicle for allegedly breaching a recently introduced “14-hour maximum combined stay over any one-week period” rule at a Meadowhall car park. As the registered keeper, I formally appeal this charge on the following grounds: 

1. Failure to Highlight Material Changes 

Minster Baywatch introduced a new parking restriction—the 14-hour maximum combined stay over a week—without adequately notifying regular visitors. This is a material change to the parking terms, yet the operator has buried it within existing signage in the same small font, colour, and style, making it indistinguishable from prior terms. 

This breaches Section 3.4 of the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), which requires operators to: 

• Clearly signal material changes at the entrance and throughout the site. 
• Use temporary notices, bold text, bright colours, or other prominent means for at least four months to ensure awareness.
 

Minster Baywatch has failed to implement any of these requirements, making enforcement of this newly introduced rule both unfair and unenforceable. 

Additionally, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) requires contract terms to be transparent and prominent. Burying a major new restriction in small print violates Schedule 2 of the CRA, rendering the term unenforceable against consumers. 

2. Inadequate Notification of Material Changes 

Minster Baywatch has not provided evidence of when the 14-hour combined stay rule was introduced. Based on available information, this change likely took effect in December 2024. Under PPSCoP Section 3.4, the operator was required to: 

• Place temporary notices at all site entrances for a minimum of four months following the change. 
• Ensure existing customers are made explicitly aware of new restrictions to prevent inadvertent breaches.
 

Meadowhall has multiple multi-storey car parks, accommodating approximately 12,000 vehicles. The sheer scale of the site means that a single temporary notice at one entrance is insufficient

I personally visited the site, capturing dashcam footage which confirms no signage at car park entrances alerts users to any updated terms. Dated screenshots from two separate visits show that motorists can enter the car park without seeing any notification of the rule change. Full video footage is available for review. 

By failing to clearly notify motorists of a material change, Minster Baywatch is non-compliant with the PPSCoP, further undermining the enforceability of this charge. 

3. Unfair and Impractical Contractual Terms 

The 14-hour combined weekly limit is an unfair and impractical contractual term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) because: 

• It requires motorists to track cumulative parking durations across multiple visits over seven days, something most visitors do not and cannot reasonably do
• If the vehicle is used by multiple drivers, compliance is practically impossible unless all users meticulously record each visit. 
• Meadowhall is a large shopping and leisure complex, where customers visit for various activities (shopping, cinema, restaurants, and more). Expecting visitors to manually calculate their cumulative parking over a week is unrealistic and disproportionate.
 

This term creates a significant imbalance between motorists and the parking operator, making it unfair under Schedule 2 of the CRA. A term that cannot be reasonably followed by the average consumer is inherently unenforceable

Additionally, expecting customers to track cumulative parking durations over multiple calendar years (e.g., one visit in 2024 and one in 2025) is absurd, further proving that this term is both excessive and unreasonable. 

4. Misapplication of ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 

Minster Baywatch’s rejection of my initial appeal misapplies ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 in an attempt to justify this charge. However, the circumstances are entirely different: 

Beavis concerned a single stay with a clear, prominently displayed overstay limit, whereas this case involves a hidden, cumulative weekly limit that is neither obvious nor practical to track. 
• In Beavis, signage was deemed prominent and unambiguous. Here, the 14-hour rule lacks clear prominence, failing PPSCoP and CRA transparency standards.
 

The Beavis ruling only upheld charges where the terms were clear, fair, and properly communicated. The conditions in this case do not meet that threshold, rendering this charge unenforceable. 

5. Non-Compliance with POFA 2012 – Operator Fails to Establish Keeper Liability 

Minster Baywatch has failed to meet the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA), meaning keeper liability cannot be established. Specifically: 

• The Notice to Keeper (NtK) was issued on 8th January but not received until 22nd January, well beyond the mandatory 14-day timeframe required under POFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(5). 
• The NtK was sent via untracked post, meaning there is no guaranteed evidence of when it entered the postal system or that it was delivered in accordance with POFA’s strict timeframe.
 

The PPSCoP Section 8.1.2(e), Note 2 states: 

Quote
Therefore, parking operators must retain a record of the date of posting of a notice, not simply of that notice having been generated (e.g. the date that any third-party Mail Consolidator actually put it in the postal system).
 

Minster Baywatch is now put to strict proof that the NtK was actually entered into the postal system on the date claimed. They must provide: 

• A postal log from their mail processor confirming dispatch. 
• A Royal Mail or mail consolidator statement proving when the notice was posted.
 

A certificate of posting by hybrid mail receipt by the bulk mailing consolidator is not evidence of when the notice was actually entered into the postal system and only shows when the notice was sent to the consolidator.

Without strict proof, presumed delivery timelines under POFA do not apply, and Minster Baywatch cannot establish keeper liability. Since POPLA is bound by POFA compliance, this alone is sufficient to cancel the PCN. 

Conclusion 

This PCN is unenforceable due to Minster Baywatch’s: 

• Failure to highlight a material change in terms. 
• Lack of adequate signage to notify regular users of new restrictions. 
• Unfair and impractical contract terms. 
• Incorrect reliance on ParkingEye v Beavis. 
• Failure to comply with POFA 2012.
 

For these reasons, I respectfully request that POPLA uphold this appeal and instruct Minster Baywatch to cancel the Parking Charge Notice.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on February 20, 2025, 05:45:37 pm
I've been busy liquidating one business and trying to organise the other so I've only just had time to write the appeal. Here's what i've drafted so far:


Minster Baywatch have issued a Parking charge Notice to my vehicle for allegedly overstaying a maximum permitted combined stay of 14 hours over any one week period at a Meadowhall car park. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and am appealing the Parking Charge Notice issued by Minster Baywatch for the following reasons:

1. Failure to Highlight Material Changes

The operator has included the “14-hour maximum combined stay over a one-week period” rule among six rules displayed on signage at the site. However, this new rule is presented in the same small font size, colour, and style as the existing rules, with no indication that it is a recent addition.

This contravenes Section 3.4 of the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), which requires operators to take proactive steps to notify users of material changes. The code explicitly states that operators must:
   •   Clearly signal that a change has been made at the entrance and throughout the site.
   •   Ensure the nature of the change is clearly displayed using temporary notices or other prominent means, such as bold text, bright colours, or highlighted sections, for a reasonable period (at least four months).

By failing to differentiate the new rule from the existing ones, the operator has not met the required standards of clarity and transparency. Regular users, such as the driver in this case, would not reasonably be aware of this new rule, particularly when it has been buried within existing terms without any effort to highlight its significance.

Furthermore, this failure violates the Consumer Rights Act 2015, as it imposes an unfair and opaque obligation on motorists who are not given adequate notice of the new condition. The lack of clear and prominent notification renders the enforcement of this new rule unreasonable and unenforceable.

2. Inadequate Notification of Material Changes

The new “14-hour maximum combined stay over a one-week period” rule has likely been very recently introduced, no clarification as to when exactly this rule was brought in has been made but it is assumed to be at some point in December 2024, yet there is a distinct lack of signage within the premises to highlight this significant change, nor any warning that new terms are imposed from any effective date.  Section 3.4 of the PPSCoP states that for material changes to parking terms:

   “Operators must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change to ensure regular visitors do not inadvertently incur parking charges.”


Meadowhall has several multi-storey car parks with approximately 12,000 spaces, the sheer scale alone suggests that a singular temporary notice at site entrances would be woefully  inadequate.  Upon visiting the site myself, I was able to enter a car park without being notified that there are updated terms, Dashcam footage from my vehicle confirms this, showing no signage at the car park entrances to alert users of changes. The absence of these required notices demonstrates non-compliance with the PPSCoP and further supports my argument that the alleged breach is unenforceable. Included are dated and time stamped screenshots from two visits to the location on two separate occasions which clearly shows customers are able to enter a car park without being alerted to any material changes. The full video footage is also provided. 

3. Unfair and Impractical Contractual Terms

The requirement to track a “14-hour maximum combined stay over a one-week period” is unfair, impractical, and unenforceable under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA). This term places an unreasonable burden on motorists to:
   •   Track and calculate their combined parking durations across multiple visits over a week.
   •   Share and coordinate this information with any additional named drivers using the vehicle.

No tools or systems are provided to facilitate this tracking, nor does the operator make any effort to provide a transparent mechanism for verifying or disputing parking durations. This creates a significant imbalance in favour of the operator, rendering the term unfair and unenforceable under the CRA. How exactly is a Meadowhall customer supposed to track their precise duration each week at a site which offers a Cinema, Bowling, Mini-golf, other leisure activities, dining and shopping facilities open 11 hours per day?  Especially when the vehicle has shared use; are customers now expected to formally liaise with their friends and family regarding their vehicle use and time spent at Meadowhall? If so, this is completely unreasonable. Additionally, it is unreasonable to expect customers to track cumulative parking durations over multiple years as in this case, with one visit captured in 2024 and one in 2025.

4. Reference to ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67

Minster Baywatch’s rejection of my appeal references ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, a case that ruled a parking charge was enforceable due to clear signage and fair terms. However, the circumstances in this case differ significantly:
   •   The signage in the Beavis case was clear, prominent, and unambiguous. In this case, the terms are not only new, but buried in small print and lack prominence.
   •   The Beavis charge was a deterrent for overstaying a fixed time limit that is easy for a customer to monitor, not a convoluted weekly limit that is impractical to track.

The Beavis ruling emphasised the importance of transparency and fairness, which the operator has failed to demonstrate here. Had the driver been made aware of the “14-hour maximum combined stay over a one-week period” rule, they would not have parked at the site at all or would have made every effort to ensure they complied with the terms. However, the rule was not clearly highlighted or distinguished from the existing conditions, and as such, the driver had no reasonable way of knowing about this specific time limit and so the argument that it is a satisfactory deterrent is invalid.

The failure to highlight this rule, particularly with an easily understandable format or prominent notices, meant that the driver inadvertently breached a term that they were not adequately notified of. This lack of clarity and transparency leads to an unjust charge, as the driver acted in good faith, unaware of any new restrictions.

5. Non-Compliance with POFA 2012

The operator has failed to comply with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) to transfer liability to the registered keeper. Specifically:
   •   The Notice to Keeper (NtK) was issued on 8th January but not delivered until 22nd January, beyond the statutory 14-day limit required for keeper liability under POFA.
   •   The NtK was sent using untracked postage, meaning the presumed delivery timeline is not guaranteed.

As such, liability for the parking charge cannot be transferred to the registered keeper.

Conclusion

The operator has failed to demonstrate that the parking charge is lawful, enforceable, and compliant with the relevant standards. The lack of adequate signage, failure to highlight material changes, and the unfair and impractical terms make this charge unenforceable.

For the reasons outlined above, I respectfully request that POPLA upholds this appeal and instructs Minster Baywatch to cancel the Parking Charge Notice.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 29, 2025, 12:25:06 am
Good points, I’ll share it before I submit. I’m thinking of including the dashcam footage from a previous visit which shows the notice of material change signs are missing from one of the car park entrances, would this be worth including? It’s a separate car park to the one the driver used at the time however there’s nothing in the NtK which indicates which car park the driver was caught entering/exiting, it’s just date/time stamped. This backs up evidence that the BCA rules and such aren’t being followed correctly.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on January 28, 2025, 08:53:42 pm
Show us a draft before submitting anything - one key change to make from the original appeal is the audience - you are addressing the POPLA assessor rather than Minster Baywatch, so any references to 'you' etc. will need changing.

You should also bear in mind that unlike Minster Baywatch, the POPLA assessor has no prior knowledge of the case, so you may need to explain things more explicitly.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 28, 2025, 08:51:31 pm
As expected, appeal rejected. Will re write it for Popla I suppose.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 26, 2025, 04:30:00 pm
Outstanding, thank you! If there is such a way to purchase a beer/soft drink for yourself then please let me know how.

I'll send that off and await the outcome.

Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 26, 2025, 03:11:22 pm
The signs are incapable of forming a contract because the actual terms are almost unreadable in tiny font.

Also, we don't know what the material changes are. In such a massive series of car parks, they have not complied with PPSCoP section 3.4 where it says in the notes:

Quote
...Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

So, for now, you appeal as the Keeper of the vehicle with the following:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle, and I dispute your 'parking charge.' I deny any liability or contractual agreement and will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

Your Notice to Keeper (NtK) fails to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), specifically under Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of Schedule 4. The NtK must include a clear and specific invitation to the keeper to either pay the charge or provide the name and address of the driver. This requirement ensures that the keeper fully understands their liability and has a clear course of action.

You cannot rely on the fact that the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is addressed to the keeper to satisfy Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i). The law explicitly requires an unambiguous invitation, with specific wording such as:

• "As the Keeper, you are now invited to pay this parking charge or..."

This is not an implied requirement; it must be explicitly stated. A generic statement such as "payment is required" or "the charge must be paid" does not meet the legal threshold. If the notice fails to include this clear invitation, it cannot transfer liability to the keeper under PoFA.

The purpose of this strict wording is to ensure clarity for the keeper. Any failure to meet this statutory obligation renders your NtK invalid for claiming keeper liability.

Additionally, the signage at the location is woefully inadequate and does not meet the required standards for clarity, legibility, and prominence, as outlined in the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP). After receiving the PCN, I visited the location of the alleged breach and found the signage to be sparse, poorly positioned, and written in minuscule font that cannot be read from a reasonable distance. This is particularly concerning given the complex terms you are attempting to enforce, such as the alleged contravention of a "14-hour maximum combined stay over any one-week (Monday to Sunday) period."

The lack of any reasonable means to monitor compliance with this term makes it an unfair and unenforceable contractual condition under consumer law. Specifically, the term that limits a vehicle to a "14-hour maximum combined stay over any one-week (Monday to Sunday) period" is entirely impractical to enforce in a fair or transparent manner. Without a payment or ticketing system that records entry and exit times across multiple visits, there is no reliable or transparent mechanism for either the motorist or the operator to calculate the total combined stay. This places an unreasonable burden on the motorist, who would be required to independently track and sum up their parking durations over an extended time period, potentially across several visits, with no tools or assistance provided to facilitate this.

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA), terms of a contract must be fair, clear, and transparent. A term that requires motorists to calculate their total combined parking time over a one-week period without any support, and with no practical way to confirm or dispute the operator’s calculations, creates a significant imbalance to the detriment of the consumer. This term is designed in such a way that it is difficult, if not impossible, for an ordinary motorist to comply with it. Furthermore, it leaves the operator with unchecked discretion to issue Parking Charge Notices based on potentially flawed data or assumptions, further exacerbating the imbalance.

In ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, the Supreme Court made it clear that clear and prominent signage, alongside fair and transparent terms, are essential for the enforceability of parking charges. The signage in this case does not meet the required standard, as it buries this convoluted condition in fine print that is neither legible from a reasonable distance nor sufficiently prominent to alert a motorist to its significance. This contrasts sharply with the principles established in Beavis, where the charge was deemed enforceable in part because the terms were clearly communicated and easily understood by motorists.

Additionally, under Schedule 2 of the CRA, terms may be considered unfair if they require a consumer to meet obligations that are unduly burdensome or if they allow the operator to impose penalties arbitrarily. The absence of a clear, functional system to track and verify parking durations over multiple visits makes this term both arbitrary and unenforceable, as motorists cannot reasonably be expected to monitor compliance with such an onerous condition.

Finally, this lack of clarity and enforceability contravenes the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), which requires that terms and conditions must be clearly communicated and fair to motorists. A condition such as this, buried in fine print and dependent on external factors beyond the motorist’s control, fails to meet these standards and cannot form the basis of a valid parking charge.

Further, it appears that there have been material changes to the terms and conditions within the last four months, yet there are no prominent notices in the car park (one of at least four distinct, large, multi-storey car parks at this location) to highlight these changes. This is a breach of Section 3.4 of the PPSCoP, which requires operators to clearly highlight significant updates to terms on signage within the car park. The absence of such notices demonstrates your failure to meet the transparency requirements imposed by your BPA membership and the PPSCoP.

The notes to section 3.4 of the PPSCoP which relates to "material changes notices" specifically states:

"...Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises."

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with all the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving, and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Minster Baywatch has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable, which you have failed to establish.

Additionally, Minster Baywatch has also failed to fully comply with all the requirements of the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP). The lack of prominent signs and the woefully inadequate way the terms are brought to the attention of the driver constitute a clear breach of the PPSCoP and consumer rights legislation. These failures render the charge unenforceable.

Minster Baywatch has no hope of success at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

They will, of course, reject the initial appeal. However, they are obliged to them give you a POPLA code and you can basically use the content as the basis of your POPLA appeal.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 26, 2025, 01:37:24 pm
https://imgur.com/a/8wC0OLj

Just been, same car park and approximate area the driver would have parked in. The signs are identical to the ones in the blue/green car park as previously pictured but I’ve included some photos just walking from vehicle to the centre and back.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 24, 2025, 03:32:58 pm
So the signs you have just shown us are from the Blue car park but the actual location that the vehicle is alleged to have parked in the Pink car park. When you get a chance, we need to see the signs in the Pink car park. Close up and also general view to see how readable they are from more than 6 feet away.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 24, 2025, 01:20:09 pm
Attached is an overhead shot of Meadowhall, the driver isn't sure exactly where they parked on those days but the red circle indicates the general area it would have been, this would be the upper car park, in a central row of bays, not against any perimeters, the red crosses indicate where the ANPR cameras are and where the vehicle was captured entering/exiting. This is also where the singular warning that the terms have changed sign is placed.

The yellow circle is where I've just been to take the photo of the sign, in the lower car park. I can go back and get some more shots later of the car park where the vehicle was parked, though in the meantime this WeTransfer link: https://we.tl/t-aOE1KHwDpZ will allow you to download a video which shows later unrelated dashcam footage entering the car park and circling the area where the driver would have parked should you wish to see it. I tried to host it on Imgur but it's over 60 seconds long. That is generally the route the driver would have taken to enter the car park, and the rough area the car would have been parked in. The Driver would then have entered Meadowhall through the doors visible.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 24, 2025, 12:26:07 pm
Meadowhall is a massive complex with multiple car parks. Please post out on a map exactly where the vehicle parked each time and where the photos of the sign you have shown us is located.

Also, you need a phot of the general view of the signs. Not just close ups. We ned to see how this terms appear in the general layout.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 24, 2025, 12:23:53 pm
Those ones specifically are around the car park, there’s a different version which states customers should refer to those signs for further details of the terms on the entrances to the car park
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: mickR on January 24, 2025, 12:00:55 pm
where are those signs placed? at the entrance? around the car park or just in one place?
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 24, 2025, 11:43:15 am
Here is the sign, I’ve been back today to get a look. The 14 hours part is stated on this. Thanks again for all your help, there is some panicking but hopefully we can get to the bottom of this.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 24, 2025, 11:37:05 am
You seem to be fixating on the "Parent & Child" terms. That sign will only be relative to a designated parent & child space. It is irrelevant to this case. The allegation is that the vehicle exceeded maximum 14 hours stay over any one week, Monday to Sunday.

Where are the signs that notice of this restriction? You mentioned it at the beginning but have not answered any questions about where this is notified to drivers. Is there a sign that mentions this restriction?

Please answer the questions and then we will be able to assist. No one who comes here for advice will pay a Minster Baywatch PCN if they follow the advice. However, you are not following any advice because you have not answered the question and keep going on about the parent & child signs which are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 06:56:59 pm
This is the old sign, the updated terms are likely similar with the new time limit included, they have the same volume of text with the smaller terms on the bottom, I’ll get a photo of that tomorrow so see exactly what it says.

I’m just concerned as the driver is not employed and cannot afford the fine, their employer went into liquidation in December so £60/£100 is a bloody big chunk of money for something they didn’t intent to spend

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 23, 2025, 06:27:05 pm
The signage must not only state that CCTV and ANPR is in use but must explicitly state what it is being used for and how that data captured is handled.

You may hope that the landowner shares the footage with the operator as that would open them up for a massive compensation claim. You are overthinking this.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 06:23:52 pm
The driver spoke to the landowner and they refused to intervene because they viewed CCTV footage which confirmed the driver did overstay, the landowner confirmed details which had previously not been made aware to them (such as where the driver went after parking), so CCTV footage does exist and can be accessed.

I’m unsure whether the landowner would be willing to share the footage with Minster Baywatch should they ask? Would they be allowed to share footage or would this violate GDPR by sharing the footage with a third party?

The terms and conditions signage do state CCTV and ANPR is in use.

Thanks again for all your help, the driver has had a license for over a decade and never received a single ticket or fine in all that time so this is entirely new territory for them.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 23, 2025, 06:15:33 pm
Have you seen this CCTV "evidence" or are you simply assuming that it is there. Why do you imagine that an unregulated private parking company can simply obtain CCTV images and then use them as some sort of forensic evidence? They can't.

Even if they had a close-up image of the driver they have absolutely no idea who that person is. What makes you think that they know it is you? There is no magic unicorn database where they can input a photo of someone and out will spit their personal details. they are not the police or any sort of authority that can perform forensic analysis of CCTV footage. All they are allowed to do is capture the vehicles VRM.

Unless the 14 hour clause is very obvious then it cannot be considered a contractual term. As already pointed out, it is the driver who forms the contract. Even if they could show that it was the same driver each time (how?) they still don't know the identity of that person.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on January 23, 2025, 06:06:07 pm
Quote
there is CCTV evidence to back this up
Please share this evidence with us (happy for faces to be redacted of course).
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 06:01:55 pm
The driver was the same person on both occasions, and there is CCTV evidence to back this up. I’m not sure whether this CCTV belongs to Minster Baywatch or the landowner but it’s my understanding they would have access to it to confirm the driver is the same person.

I think the main point is that the driver had no idea the 14 hour rule was in place, and had no idea the terms had been updated recently, in part due to them being updated a year ago so all present additional signage was assumed to relate to said previous update, which is unrelated and doesn’t affect the driver.

I’m not sure what to advise them with regards to an appeal, it is a place local to us and has always advertised free parking, and at one car park there’s even a large sign stating ‘free 24 hour car park’, unless you check the signs every single time you go you’re really not going to be aware of a week long time limit.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: DWMB2 on January 23, 2025, 05:51:02 pm
The parties to a parking contract are the driver and the parking operator. Whilst Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act provides a mechanism to recover unpaid charges from the keeper, that does not alter the parties between whom the contract was formed.

In light of this, I'm not sure what evidence Minster Baywatch could produce to show that the driver was the same on each occasion, and that any driver has exceeded the 14 hours per week limit.

The signage is silent as to whether the 14 hours applies to the driver or the vehicle, which brings to mind the following from the Consumer Rights Act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/2):

69 Contract terms that may have different meanings

(1)If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.
[/i]
[/i]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 05:26:40 pm
It’s free parking, the only restriction is the 14 hours per week, it isn’t possible to pay for any additional time, go over the 14 cumulative hours and you get the PCN automatically via ANPR  cameras.

The parent thing requires a permit which must be obtained from the centre, which is then displayed, similar to a blue badge, if you don’t get the permit or display it when using a parent bay, you’ll be given the penalty charge too. This requires a parking warden to issue as it isn’t ANPR controlled, the warden will leave the PCN on the windscreen.

It is confusing, the attached is the Private Land terms and conditions notice displayed around the car parks but the only one warning you that this has been changed was the one on entry photographed above. I will try to get a clearer photo detailing the small print on the bottom of the terms and conditions sign.

I’m unsure whether the terms and conditions refers to the driver or the vehicle, which is daft given some people share a car so could easily clock up 14 hours over a week if multiple people visit on separate occasions but use the same vehicle.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 23, 2025, 04:52:00 pm
OK, so there is one single sign alerting drivers of material changes. You state that there are no other signs within the car park that repeat or alert regular users of the car park what these material changes are.

We are not interested in the Parent Child signs as they are not relevant to this matter. Do you think that the operator has complied with the requirements of the PPSCoP which states:

Quote
NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

I am still unclear how the tariffs are displayed and explained. It sounds confusing the way you've explained it with multiple parking sessions allowed but with restrictions. It MUST be posted somewhere. How do you pay for these parking sessions? If it is online then show us. If it is at a payment machine, there must be a sign showing the tariffs.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 03:56:46 pm
There’s one singular sign on entry, I’ve been to look today, this states that the terms have changed and that’s it. It doesn’t state what or when. The parent and child permits were introduced in August 2013 and various additional signs warning specifically of this have been in place since. I’m unsure when the time limit changes were imposed, the earliest mention I can find online is 4th December but these are all unrelated social media posts. The driver is also unaware of these additional changes or these signs, aside from the parent and child updates.

https://imgur.com/a/uWrumEZ

The above link includes a screenshot showing the placement on entry and a close up of what it reads. I didn’t notice it on entry as I was focused on the car on the left who was approaching the junction as I was about to make the turn, it’s my right of way but you do have to be cautious. When I reviewed my dashcam footage that’s when I spotted the sign. The driver also states they have never seen that sign before in their life. It’s unknown if it was there during the time of the alleged infringements.

There are several car parks and entry points and when I checked my own dashcam footage of visiting the location personally on unrelated occasions, I can’t see that same sign repeated, there are other signs but they’re all in different formats, with different layouts and fonts, nothing is cohesive and nothing is particularly readable from a moving vehicle. The only consistent signage on entry is the yellow signs with the detailed terms, but it would be quite difficult to read these when driving past as the text is incredible small.

On entry to the centre, there are the following attached additional signs warning of parent and child permits, these have been there since the previous changes were made. There’s nothing even remotely similar to this mentioning the 14 hours.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, I do appreciate it and will let the driver know the provided information.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 23, 2025, 03:28:37 pm
Without seeing the signs that formed the contract with the driver, it is difficult to progress this for now.

The "notice of change" is nothing to do with notices in the local media. Any material change to the terms and conditions of parking have to be notified on the signage at the location. It has to be prominent and obvious. It has to notify regular users that there have been changes to the terms and where to fond these changes.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 12:18:36 pm
I’ve attached ‘the letter’, these is the ANPR cameras showing the days/times of entry, which relates to the 20 hours cumulative time on premises which I was referring to.

No notice of change has been made, to my knowledge. I’ve since googled it and seen a few articles published but I don’t follow the news outlets that have reported on it.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 23, 2025, 12:06:30 pm
So where are the signs that show the tariffs and the terms for breach of those tariffs? The parent & child signs are incapable of forming any contract. The other signs with the large £100 on them are also impossible to read, thus breaching the operators ATA code of practice.

Where is this "letter" you say states "The letter claims the driver visited on 30th December for 10 hours, 10 mins, and 4th January for 10 hours, 19 mins."? You've only shown us the NtK.

You said that "The 14 hour limit was introduced a month ago according to a Google search." Where is this material change notified?
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 11:59:16 am
Thanks for the helpful response. I’ve no photos myself as I’m not near Meadowhall at present, but there’s photos I’ve found online:

https://imgur.com/a/25aaDul
These are examples of previous signage that I’m aware of, which mainly refer to the car park for being for customer use and having the right permits for marked bays.

https://imgur.com/a/JRJ1p1J
Here is an image I found which shows the updated terms.

These big yellow signs are throughout the car park, I’m not aware of any other signs indicating they have been updated. At the entrance to Meadowhall there are some upright A1 poster holders which do state that you must register for child & parent bays, these have been in place for a while as that was a new rule introduced last year as well. Nothing regarding 14 hour maximum stay as far as I saw.


Edit: there is another page with photos of the ANPR camera shots of the car entering/exiting, and a page of legal jargon.
Title: Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: b789 on January 23, 2025, 11:42:00 am
Welcome. SO any things wrong with that Parking Charge Notice (PCN). Please stop fretting over the "mugs discount" you have missed. Do you always pay speculative invoices from private companies just because there is a 40% discount offered?

If you follow the advice you won't be paying a penny to Minster Baywatch.

What do the signs at the location say? Can you get some photos of them? Is there any mention of 'Bransby Wilson' on the signs? Hopefully, you have not been in touch with them yet.

If the terms of the car park have materially changed within the last 4 months, they should have had very clear and prominent signs notifying drivers of the material changes. This is a requirement according to the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), section 3.4 which states:

Quote
3.4. Material changes – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

The postal Notice to Keeper (NtK) you have received is not fully compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that they cannot hold the Keeper liable. As the Keeper, you are under no legal obligation to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company. They have failed to note the "period of parking" as required by paragraph 9(2)(b) of PoFA.

So, before you attempt to appeal this, please answer the questions I asked earlier in the post.
Title: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
Post by: gme on January 23, 2025, 11:20:20 am

1. Received a notice to keeper about overstaying at Meadowhall shopping centre. Parking charge notice has been issued. You’re apparently allowed 14 hours combined stay over a 7 day period, Monday to Sunday.

2. The letter claims the driver visited on 30th December for 10 hours, 10 mins, and 4th January for 10 hours, 19 mins.

3. The driver did visit at those times for those durations, but was unaware there was a week long limit on the maximum total stay. The driver has been visiting the location regularly for two decades, there are obvious restrictions on blue badge and parent parking bags as these bays are marked, but there is apparently signage regarding the 14 hour limit which was either missed upon arrival, or no attention paid to it as previously it has only referred to the disabled bays and parent and child bays which the driver has no intention of using. There is also known restrictions on Meadowhall staff using the customer car parks which the driver would also assume would be a part of any signage, so again it’s not something which the driver would check for updates on during every visit to the location. The driver is not a Meadowhall employee.

4. The driver was at the location for those visits, with a single bank transaction from a shop on each occasion showing they were a paying customer, though the PCN only refers to a maximum combined stay of 14 hours at the location, nothing else regarding the terms and conditions on the signage, so unsure if you have to make a transaction or not. You can visit the location and not spend money, it’s a shopping centre so you could sit in there all day and not buy anything in theory.

5. The 14 hour limit was introduced a month ago according to a Google search. Again, the Driver was unaware of the signs being changed as there has always been signs regarding the disabled bays, parent bays and staff using customer car parks.

6. The date of issue was 8th January, the letter only arrived yesterday (22nd Jan). There’s a 14 day window to pay a reduced fee, which has been missed. No clue as to why the letter took so long to arrive, likely due to Royal Mail delays. This means the reduced payment window has been missed through no fault of the drivers own.


[attachment deleted by admin]