Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: sausage1971 on January 22, 2025, 02:33:23 pm
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Actually my mistake - what is the webcode on the NTO?
PCN = HG20460495
VRM = LF19DPO
Webcode = 80A51A
Photos are available here. (https://parking.havering.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=NOTICEREVIEW) No webcode required, just the PCN and VRM.
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Really helpful, thank you
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I agree their mistake with the rejection letter is the way to go and it may get this not contested but it's not cut and dried if it goes to the tribunal I think as they may expand on the evidence from the CEO.
I posted another thread where the clock wasn't displayed in a 3 hour bay and the key cases are here:
Miss Michelle Dhillon - v - Leicester City Council
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SWPQvyFnxTCIkzz4XHjTBhchA8i-hvKm/view
Mr William Watson - v - St Helens Council
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j3F5-usOqEk4ZeV4WH8vLjOsB6JaMN5G/view
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The is the link to havering Council's Traffic Order for the location
https://store.traffweb.app/havering/documents/parkmap/sched/2018%20No.%20110%20and%202018%20No.%20111.pdf
It doesn't mention the clock in the document as far as I can see
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Ok, thanks again, I get it now (I think); the PI is that the council have stated the wrong reason for the contravention in the respect they should have stated "not displaying blue badge"
Do you have a link to the legislation/guidance that states "no requirement to display the clock" so I can include it in the appeal
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You should look at this as the keeper, not the driver.
The contravention.
1. The driver was required to display a BB in the required position.
2. The authority have stated that the contravention arose because the clock was not displayed.
3. There's no requirement to display a clock.
PI
4. They admit that their NOR is defective and they meant that the BB itself was not displayed = failure to comply with the SoS's Stat Guidance = PI grounds.
5. They stick to their guns and the ONLY issue of dispute is whether a clock was displayed. See The Contravention above.
IMO, pl stop researching this matter from the council's perspective. As keeper you receive a NTO, you make formal reps and you act upon their decision, in this case the NOR.
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This is from the original PCN (online)
Parked in a designated disabled person's parking place without displaying a valid disabled person's badge in the prescribed manner
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PI not IP
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Thanks again, not looking to unravel it at all, looking for the simplest way to challenge
Would appreciate it it if you could break it down a little re the IP as I don't really get what my appeal would state
On the Havering website the statement is pretty clear?
On the Havering website it states
Using parking bays
Vehicles must not be left in a bay without paying or a Blue Badge displayed with the appropriate time clock set.
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An 'appeal' is to the adjudicator. You made 'representations' to the authority.
Not moot. Their rejection was based upon a clock not being displayed. Why should you look behind this to unravel what you think they really meant? This is where the PI grounds come in IMO.
From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance:
The authority should give the owner clear and full reasons for its decision on a representation, in addition to the minimum required information.i]The authority should give the owner clear and full reasons for its decision [to reject] on a representation, in addition to the minimum required information.
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Thanks, too late for an appeal as rejected at NTO stage, has to go to London Tribunal
If the BB isn't displayed at all wouldn't the clock be a moot point?
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their letter is a bit ambiguous
IMO, it's not ambiguous at all:
The Council's Civil Enforcement Officer issued the PCN to your vehicle because the Disabled Person's blue badge Clock was not displayed.
IMO, register your appeal:
1. Contravention did not occur.
Contrary to the council's assertion in the NOR that a blue badge must be accompanied by a clock showing the actual time of arrival, there is no such default position in legislation and no such requirement in the council's traffic management order. It therefore follows that without such a requirement there was no contravention.
2. Procedural impropriety
This could be fleshed out later.
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Yes, there’s no downside in continuing the challenge. Thanks.
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Yes I think you can forget the clock as I presume it is in a wallet with the blue badge but their only pic of the dash isn't great.
The letter does say it's because of the clock and maybe the CEO saw the BB part on the floor or seat. More likely they've just left that sentence in from a template. Bt it's worth referencing this given the poor quality of the evidence. You'd have to maybe say you can't recall exactly what was on display owing to dealing with needs etc.
Sadly if Havering contest this the adjudicator can't apply mitigation but can make a recommendation perhaps to say Havering should accept the discounted penalty.
But you may as well have a go.
(https://i.imgur.com/FzJ30Rf.jpeg)
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Looking at the photographs it does seem the BB was not on the dash
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Web Code 902GS064
Did not challenge windscreen PCN (my own fault, just forgot, doh)
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Actually my mistake - what is the webcode on the NTO?
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Did you challenge the windscreen PCN?
The details on the letter don't match a case on Havering's site - have you got the council's pictures?
The rejection says it's the clock not there but there are cases won about not having to have the clock set in a timed bay, and Havering may not even have this stipulation in its traffic order (but can still be won even if it has).
See this ongoing case where I've listed two cases.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hackney-(code-40)-parked-without-displaying-disabled-person's-badge-in-prescribe/
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The original PCN was on the car, I'm quite sure the BB had slipped off the dash
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As I read the NoR they have not re-offered the discount and want payment in full of £110. In that case you might as well appeal to the Adjudicator as you have no financial incentive to do otherwise.
There is a possible defence for not displaying the clock in a disabled bay. To be viable the BB itself had to be displayed. How come you don't know?
Was the original PCN on the car when you returned?
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The appeal was along the lines
My mother has a valid, in date Blue Badge (which I attached images of) and was i the car with me
I mentioned that if the Badge was not visible then it may have slipped off the dash when my mother placed it there. Due to her condition her co-ordination isn't as good as it could be. I asked them to make a reasonable adjustment, as specified by the EA 2010, taking into consideration the circumstances
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Appeal was 6/12/2024, have requested a copy
This bay https://maps.app.goo.gl/oCF4rFY7mJntUgKc6
To be honest, I'm unsure whether the badge slipped off the dash or if it was just the clock not being displayed, their letter is a bit ambiguous
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No, the disabled bay directly outside the M&S sign across the entrance to the M&S car park
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The NoR suggests that the BB was displayed but no clock. Is that correct?
The photos are too blurred to see what, if anything, was displayed.
Please post up a Google Street View link to the bay.
If you don't have a copy of your representation do you at least know the date they were submitted.
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20th Jan 2025
Online appeal so do not have a copy
Can you please summarise what you wrote?
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20th Jan 2025
Online appeal so do not have a copy
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Date of NoR?
Copy of your reps?
One of these bays?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GHsaUZ5ZUj2RqTsV7
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Rejection Letter [attach=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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HI
Appealed the NTO online, first letter and rejection below
Location https://maps.app.goo.gl/DfcxnUoRZTwC6eFg6
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Any advice on how to approach this?
For meaningful advice please to have a read of this
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post here all sides of all paperwork to and from the Council, redacting only yr name & address, and a GSV link to the location.
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Hi, I have had a Formal Representation rejected by havering Council for not displaying a Blue Badge in a disabled parking space. The badge was in the car but genuinely slipped off the dash. I explained this to the council and asked them to make a reasonable adjustment but they ignored the request and rejected the appeal. I'm going to escalate to London Tribunal. Any advice on how to approach this? Thanks