Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cristinika on January 22, 2025, 01:31:33 pm
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VFNbXMCanGs0N_df1nfJJ48wsuHrdcTQ/view).
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;D Allowed. Three threats to increase while appeal pending.
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Please only give me the updates. When an appeal has been filed, we should discuss in CAMERA. That reminds me, please sign my petition and pass on. ;D
For other members:
The cases to be cited will be: 2240362722; 2240451990; 2250001028; 2240541903.
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Website. Appeal filed.
Fingers crossed! Will keep you posted with any updates that I receive from them.
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Website. Appeal filed.
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Do not pay it. I will PM you my details. Screenshot today please.
The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Fri, 28 Mar 2025. Please pay £65.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Sun, 9 Mar 2025. You cannot make representations twice
This is poppycock and illegal.
Tribunal time I say.
Thank you, I'll reply to your message. Where do you see the information about making reps twice? On the website? Which screenshot shall I send you?
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Do not pay it. I will PM you my details. Screenshot today please.
The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Fri, 28 Mar 2025. Please pay £65.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Sun, 9 Mar 2025. You cannot make representations twice
This is poppycock and illegal.
Tribunal time I say.
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[/quote]
Hi Cristinika. How did you get on with this? Any one response yet?
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Hi, I received the reply only yesterday, posting it here:
(https://thumbs4.imagebam.com/a7/05/7a/ME10ANRV_t.jpg) (https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME10ANRV) (https://thumbs4.imagebam.com/21/c7/6a/ME10ANRW_t.jpg) (https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME10ANRW) (https://thumbs4.imagebam.com/08/27/34/ME10ANRX_t.jpg) (https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME10ANRX) (https://thumbs4.imagebam.com/a1/32/79/ME10ANRY_t.jpg) (https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME10ANRY) (https://thumbs4.imagebam.com/bf/af/b6/ME10ANRZ_t.jpg) (https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME10ANRZ)
Please let me know if you can see the images or I should reupload.
I am surprised at their reasoning, it's unrelated to my appeal - I used the exact wording you provided, so unclear where their reply is coming from. Any thoughts what to do next please?
Thanks!
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Hi Cristinika. How did you get on with this? Any one response yet?
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No news yet, I will post here when I get a reply from Lambeth, thanks so much.
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I will be taking care of this and will post accordingly when it develops.
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@cristinika Thanks. Date of PCN: 6th January. Deemed served 8th January. Therefore, price should increase on 22nd January.
Have you kept the envelope as proof of service?
Sorry should be 20th. My bad. But the point is the same.
isn't it 14 days from the date of service? sorry I keep mixing these up, when is it from date of service and when is it from date of notice?
Hi Cristinika. How did you get on with this? Any one response yet?
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@cristinika Thanks. Date of PCN: 6th January. Deemed served 8th January. Therefore, price should increase on 22nd January.
Have you kept the envelope as proof of service?
Sorry should be 20th. My bad. But the point is the same.
isn't it 14 days from the date of service? sorry I keep mixing these up, when is it from date of service and when is it from date of notice?
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@cristinika Thanks. Date of PCN: 6th January. Deemed served 8th January. Therefore, price should increase on 22nd January.
Have you kept the envelope as proof of service?
Sorry should be 20th. My bad. But the point is the same.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/motorbike-52m-pcn-lambeth/msg41795/#msg41795
ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2240362722
Appellant Ian Prideaux
Authority London Borough of Lambeth
VRM KY15HXG
PCN Details
PCN LJ2877492A
Contravention date 15 Jun 2024
Contravention time 18:27:00
Contravention location Larkhall Rise
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Fail comply prohibition on certain types vehicle
Referral date -
Decision Date 15 Oct 2024
Adjudicator Edward Houghton
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The Appellant appeared in person and was represented by Mr Morgan. Having heard the Appeal I reserved my decision to give further consideration to the rather detailed procedural and technical issues raised. I directed the Appellant to produce a chronological summary which has proved to be of assistance.
The Appellant has produced in evidence a copy of The Lambeth (Moving Traffic Restrictions) Order 2024 coming into force on the27th April 2024 which provides that “ all previous Orders are hereby revoked in their entirety.” This must include the 2023 Order relied on by the Council. However it seems to me highly probable that the 2024 Order would re-enact the restriction based on the “map-based schedule” and that if the Appellant is to challenge order relied on by the Council on this basis the onus is on him to produce a complete, not a partial, copy of it.
The main challenge lies on procedural grounds, In bare summary the Appellant submits that the Council’s website was giving incorrect and/or confusing information regarding payment dates, and that it was still showing a demand for payment after an appeal had been lodged. It seems to me that even if the Statutory notices are in themselves technically correct what is shown on the Council’s website should be in accordance with those notices; and that if it is not, it inevitably has the effect of undermining what is sted in the Notices. In the present case I see no reason to doubt the Appellant’s evidence, supported by screenshots, as to whet was shown on the website at various times These include a statement that “The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £130.00 on Tue,16 Jul 2024. Please pay £65.00 now”. The correct date (the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the PCN) is in fact the 17th July. There is a subsequent statement that “The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Mon,5 Aug 2024. Please pay £65.00 now. The Rejection Notice is dated the 16th July and states correctly that the Appellant has 28 days from that date before a Charge certificate may be issued. The motorist is entitled to have clear and correct information from a Council as to what is required to be paid and when; and in my judgement these errors are serious enough for the Appeal to be allowed on the basis of a collateral challenge. In addition, I agree with the decision of my learned colleague Mr Greenslade in the case cited by the Appellant, 2240178326 Maurice Fisher v London Borough of Hackney, in which he sted that “it is not open to the Enforcement Authority to seek any sum beyond the prescribed amount or any amount at all whilst an appellant is appealing to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicator.”
The Appeal is therefore allowed.
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So:
1. Go to the website: www.lambeth.gov.uk/mypcn
2. Skip the chat box.
3. Make a pdf of this and attach the screenshot. No contravention
Dear Lambeth
I received the PCN on 22nd January. Notwithstanding this considerable day, a motorist is entitled to have clear and correct information from a Council as to what is required to be paid and when. Your website fails in this regard as proved by the attached screenshot. Therefore, please cancel the PCN as this plays fast and loose with the statutory process.
Thanks, this is great. I tried to do this now, but it's asking me to elaborate further, by selecting one of these options and adding more info in the box.
It won't let me submit until I filled in those additional rows:
(https://i.imgur.com/xw2fhqe.jpeg)
Any tips, please?
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So:
1. Go to the website: www.lambeth.gov.uk/mypcn
2. Skip the chat box.
3. Make a pdf of this and attach the screenshot. No contravention
Dear Lambeth
I received the PCN on 22nd January. Notwithstanding this considerable day, a motorist is entitled to have clear and correct information from a Council as to what is required to be paid and when. Your website fails in this regard as proved by the attached screenshot. Therefore, please cancel the PCN as this plays fast and loose with the statutory process.
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I will draft tomorrow.
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@cristinika Thanks. Date of PCN: 6th January. Deemed served 8th January. Therefore, price should increase on 22nd January.
Have you kept the envelope as proof of service?
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/motorbike-52m-pcn-lambeth/msg41795/#msg41795
Thank you! I kept the envelope, but there is no time stamp or any postal stamp on it.
How shall I word the appeal? Is it worth asking for the TMO since the information found online indicates these were temporary traffic orders that would have expired by 26 December 2024? I linked this temp TMO in my original post.
Thanks so much!
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@cristinika Thanks. Date of PCN: 6th January. Deemed served 8th January. Therefore, price should increase on 22nd January.
Have you kept the envelope as proof of service?
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/motorbike-52m-pcn-lambeth/msg41795/#msg41795
ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2240362722
Appellant Ian Prideaux
Authority London Borough of Lambeth
VRM KY15HXG
PCN Details
PCN LJ2877492A
Contravention date 15 Jun 2024
Contravention time 18:27:00
Contravention location Larkhall Rise
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Fail comply prohibition on certain types vehicle
Referral date -
Decision Date 15 Oct 2024
Adjudicator Edward Houghton
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The Appellant appeared in person and was represented by Mr Morgan. Having heard the Appeal I reserved my decision to give further consideration to the rather detailed procedural and technical issues raised. I directed the Appellant to produce a chronological summary which has proved to be of assistance.
The Appellant has produced in evidence a copy of The Lambeth (Moving Traffic Restrictions) Order 2024 coming into force on the27th April 2024 which provides that “ all previous Orders are hereby revoked in their entirety.” This must include the 2023 Order relied on by the Council. However it seems to me highly probable that the 2024 Order would re-enact the restriction based on the “map-based schedule” and that if the Appellant is to challenge order relied on by the Council on this basis the onus is on him to produce a complete, not a partial, copy of it.
The main challenge lies on procedural grounds, In bare summary the Appellant submits that the Council’s website was giving incorrect and/or confusing information regarding payment dates, and that it was still showing a demand for payment after an appeal had been lodged. It seems to me that even if the Statutory notices are in themselves technically correct what is shown on the Council’s website should be in accordance with those notices; and that if it is not, it inevitably has the effect of undermining what is sted in the Notices. In the present case I see no reason to doubt the Appellant’s evidence, supported by screenshots, as to whet was shown on the website at various times These include a statement that “The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £130.00 on Tue,16 Jul 2024. Please pay £65.00 now”. The correct date (the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the PCN) is in fact the 17th July. There is a subsequent statement that “The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Mon,5 Aug 2024. Please pay £65.00 now. The Rejection Notice is dated the 16th July and states correctly that the Appellant has 28 days from that date before a Charge certificate may be issued. The motorist is entitled to have clear and correct information from a Council as to what is required to be paid and when; and in my judgement these errors are serious enough for the Appeal to be allowed on the basis of a collateral challenge. In addition, I agree with the decision of my learned colleague Mr Greenslade in the case cited by the Appellant, 2240178326 Maurice Fisher v London Borough of Hackney, in which he sted that “it is not open to the Enforcement Authority to seek any sum beyond the prescribed amount or any amount at all whilst an appellant is appealing to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicator.”
The Appeal is therefore allowed.
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Please screenshot what the website says.
I already added the screenshot in my original post, please see it again here
(https://i.imgur.com/0qT7F9T.jpeg)
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Please screenshot what the website says.
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Well you can work out whether the date of the increased price is correct or not.
It would be correct if the issue date was 20 Jan (which probably it is, since I received it on 22 Jan), but on the PCN the issue date is 6 Jan. This would mean I have 28 days instead of 14 days at discounted rate. Can I use this in my reps?
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Well you can work out whether the date of the increased price is correct or not.
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edit
Edit? is there something I should be editing? sorry, I'm not sure what is meant with "edit"
It means 'Stamfordman'posted something, but thought better of it, so edited-out his post.
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edit
Edit? is there something I should be editing? sorry, I'm not sure what is meant with "edit"
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edit
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London Borough of Lambeth
Location: Upper Ground, Southbank
The alleged contravention - code 52 M failing to comply with a prohibition …
Date: 26 Dec 2024, Boxing day
PCN: LJ31896415
VRN EY24RXH
Today 22 Jan I received this PCN dated 6 Jan 2025:
(https://i.imgur.com/vhYT0Qf.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/y9uMkIn.jpeg)
Coming from Blackfriars Bridge, turned left into Upper Ground looking for street parking, we had tickets to a show at the County Hall nearby. As I approached the National Theatre, I saw in front of me the “no motor vehicles” sign, junction with Cornwall Street; at that point I was presented the option to park in the super expensive National Theatre parking underground, to turn left and exit the area via Cornwall St into Waterloo or to turn back, I turned back the way I came, only to see the “no motor vehicles” in this direction too. As far as I am aware these are “temporary signs” according to https://publicnoticeportal.uk/notice/traffic-and-roads/66ec855a795d68d876901303
Is it possible the TMO was expired since it was temporary and the PCN is invalid?
Please help. Are there any flaws with the PCN otherwise?
The date of issue is 6 January 2025, but I received it today 22 January. On the Lambeth website it shows the fee will increase on 3 Feb 2025.
(https://i.imgur.com/UTD6tkV.jpeg)
Thanks so much!