Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: richythepom on January 20, 2025, 09:00:58 am

Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on July 11, 2025, 11:42:42 am
 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on July 10, 2025, 05:06:45 pm
Hello all, some very good news received in the wee small hours today - email from London Tribunals to confirm Havering will not be challenging my appeal and so PCN quashed!
Many thanks to @Hippocrates for the extremely generous offer to represent my case.
Thanks again to all for the advice/support.  Just goes to show - very often worth a challenge 🙂
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on April 03, 2025, 08:39:56 pm
Has done so. Molon lave.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: H C Andersen on April 03, 2025, 04:24:15 pm
Surprisingly, the authority have re-offered the discount, so the OP has to make a choice.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on April 03, 2025, 03:18:53 pm
I'll PM you now.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on April 03, 2025, 03:15:59 pm
Thanks very much @Hippocrates - I would love to take you up on your very generous offer of representation 🙏
Please let me know what I/we need to do next!
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on April 03, 2025, 02:51:56 pm
Video is not that helpful all the time. Unconscionable delay in their response. I advise appealing it and I am happy to represent if you wish. Case history on this issue alone.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on April 03, 2025, 02:43:55 pm
Hello all, just had a response to my representation drop through the letterbox (please find attached).

Please could I request some advice on next steps?

Not sure whether it's worth taking to the next (appeal?) stage (i.e. if learned members think I've a strong chance of winning!) - or whether it's now best in my case to simply pay the £65 within the next two weeks...

Thank you!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: cp8759 on March 21, 2025, 12:24:17 pm
You can force their hand by sending a subject access request (https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/subject-access-requests/a-guide-to-subject-access/) to dpo@havering.gov.uk and asking them to email you the NoR.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on March 21, 2025, 12:15:11 pm
Havering are one of the councils who do not reoffer the discount in their NORs.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 21, 2025, 11:59:42 am
The fact that the discount is on offer suggests a notice of rejection has recently been issued reoffering the discount, so I suspect you'll get it in the post in the next few days. The only other option is to call the council and ask for an update.
Thanks @cp8759 - I'll keep an eye out for if/when it arrives in the post and revert to the forum re next steps...
I did try to call the Council, incidentally; however, for this part of LBH's "service", EVERYTHING is automated (no actual people to talk to) unless you're at Court/Bailiff stage, in which case, it gives you different external numbers to call...
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: cp8759 on March 21, 2025, 11:53:24 am
The fact that the discount is on offer suggests a notice of rejection has recently been issued reoffering the discount, so I suspect you'll get it in the post in the next few days. The only other option is to call the council and ask for an update.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 21, 2025, 10:30:24 am
Just been back onto Havering's website - if there *is* a way to check status/history of my PCN, then they've done a bloody good job of hiding it!  I can't find any way of checking, I'm afraid...
Surely, log on with your PCN and VRM details plus the webcode?

I've tried that via the LBH website.  It recognises the VRM/PCN/Webcode info. but it doesn't give me the option to "check status / "check history" or anything similar; it only provides the option for me to pay.  I tentatively had a nose at that and it's still offering me the reduced rate, but offers nothing re the status of my representation etc...
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on March 21, 2025, 10:15:39 am
Just been back onto Havering's website - if there *is* a way to check status/history of my PCN, then they've done a bloody good job of hiding it!  I can't find any way of checking, I'm afraid...
Surely, log on with your PCN and VRM details plus the webcode?
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: cp8759 on March 21, 2025, 12:54:10 am
The relevant tribunal authority is Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RndFZ_r1JlVDGvo13wKLGpDCy3OBXqW/view).

A more recent binding authority on the duty of fairness is Bank Mellat v Her Majesty's Treasury (No. 2) [2013] UKSC 39 (https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2011_0040_judgment_32e27b53c6.pdf) at para 35:

35. The duty of fairness governing the exercise of a statutory power is a limitation on the discretion of the decision-maker which is implied into the statute. But the fact that the statute makes some provision for the procedure to be followed before or after the exercise of a statutory power does not of itself impliedly exclude either the duty of fairness in general or the duty of prior consultation in particular, where they would otherwise arise. As Byles J observed in Cooper v Board of Works for the Wandsworth District (1863) 14 CB(NS) 190, 194, “the justice of the common law will supply the omission of the legislature.” In Lloyd v McMahon 1987] 1 AC 625, 702-3, Lord Bridge of Harwich regarded it as

“well established that when a statute has conferred on any body the power to make decisions affecting individuals, the courts will not
only require the procedure prescribed by the statute to be followed, but will readily imply so much and no more to be introduced by way
of additional procedural safeguards as will ensure the attainment of fairness.”

Like Lord Bingham in R (West) v Parole Board [2005] 1 WLR 350 at para 29, I find it hard to envisage cases in which the maximum expressio unius exclusio alterius could suffice to exclude so basic a right as that of fairness
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Incandescent on March 20, 2025, 09:20:45 pm
BTW there is no 56 day limit on them replying under the LLA & TfL Act 2003; that is only in the Traffic Management Act 2004 when they respond to reps against a Notice to Owner.
Ah OK - I thought the 56 day thing might provide a technicality to get my PCN quashed... So can Havering just let this hang as long as they want now?
Well, they have a duty as a public body to act fairly.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on March 20, 2025, 05:18:16 pm
Unfortunately, not all follow it. But, I agree in principle.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: MrChips on March 20, 2025, 01:59:24 pm
There is a statement on the London tribunals website that they generally regard over three months as unreasonable so that's a good benchmark.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process

See the bit under "The Enforcement Authority considers your representations".
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: John U.K. on March 20, 2025, 12:49:50 pm
56 day limit doesn't apply to box junction PCNs.
Is there *no* limit, though?  I mean, if Havering were to go quiet and then get back to me in 10 years time, would that be OK in terms of the rules they presumably have to work to - even re box junction PCNs?

I think most adjudicators would regard over 3 months as unreasonable, almost all anything over six months.

The legal definition of reasonableness (and unreasonableness) is one of those elastic and somewhat subjective terma available to adjudicators: see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Provincial_Picture_Houses_Ltd_v_Wednesbury_Corporation

Another you are likely to meet is substantial compliance.



 
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 12:15:42 pm
56 day limit doesn't apply to box junction PCNs.
Is there *no* limit, though?  I mean, if Havering were to go quiet and then get back to me in 10 years time, would that be OK in terms of the rules they presumably have to work to - even re box junction PCNs?
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: MrChips on March 20, 2025, 11:30:43 am
56 day limit doesn't apply to box junction PCNs.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 11:16:24 am
BTW there is no 56 day limit on them replying under the LLA & TfL Act 2003; that is only in the Traffic Management Act 2004 when they respond to reps against a Notice to Owner.
Ah OK - I thought the 56 day thing might provide a technicality to get my PCN quashed... So can Havering just let this hang as long as they want now?
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Incandescent on March 20, 2025, 11:03:53 am
BTW there is no 56 day limit on them replying under the LLA & TfL Act 2003; that is only in the Traffic Management Act 2004 when they respond to reps against a Notice to Owner.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 10:25:39 am
Just been back onto Havering's website - if there *is* a way to check status/history of my PCN, then they've done a bloody good job of hiding it!  I can't find any way of checking, I'm afraid...
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 10:17:17 am
Have you checked the council website for the status/history of the PCN?
No - I didn't know you could...(?)
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: John U.K. on March 20, 2025, 10:09:40 am
Have you checked the council website for the status/history of the PCN?
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 09:55:54 am
Good morning all.
Following up the above - I submitted my respresentation on 22nd Jan'25 via Havering's PCN website (and recceived an automated email response on the same day from Harveing confirming they'd received it); this means that 56 days elapsed yesterday, I believe. 
I haven't received an email or a letter in the post as yet... does this mean I'm now in the clear?
Thank you!
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on January 22, 2025, 08:45:25 am
Thanks again all for your help - representation submitted!

I've attached a screenshot of the confrmation; I'll keep you posted...  :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on January 21, 2025, 07:21:52 pm
What about the PCN errors and website errors?
Why show our hand early? They might DNC it or not put in any evidence, for all we know they might upload the wrong CCTV footage, I've had that before.
The Halton case. Best to put in very strong points first.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: cp8759 on January 20, 2025, 10:01:28 pm
What about the PCN errors and website errors?
Why show our hand early? They might DNC it or not put in any evidence, for all we know they might upload the wrong CCTV footage, I've had that before.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Hippocrates on January 20, 2025, 09:35:17 pm
What about the PCN errors and website errors?
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: cp8759 on January 20, 2025, 08:21:03 pm
I think your representation is fine as it is, you just need to understand that they will refuse it and you will have to appeal to the tribunal.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on January 20, 2025, 08:19:28 pm
Many thanks for your response @cp8759.

I've not actually sent my representation yet (plan to do so tomorrow); therefore - if you do have any further suggestions re anything I should add/remove/adjust etc., I'm all ears!
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: cp8759 on January 20, 2025, 06:08:53 pm
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcubksR87k

I've been through this frame by frame, and I cannot see any two frames where the wheels are in the same position.

There might have been an argument to be made about the grounds of appeal available on the council website, but as you've already made a representation we have no way to check. Still, I think this should win on its merits. I'm sure the council will reject but they may well DNC it at the tribunal.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Incandescent on January 20, 2025, 05:19:51 pm
Looks OK, but remember they are 99% likely to reject it.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on January 20, 2025, 02:10:19 pm
Thanks again @Incadescent :) 

I'm going to submit a representation...(https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji109.png)

Please could you let me know your thoughts on my draft below?

I write to make a respresentation to effect the cancellation of this PCN for the following reasons:

The contravention alleged on the PCN states "Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited".  I did not stop my vehicle at any point - the continued movement of my vehicle is clear in the video evidence provided.  At no point throughout the video evidence does my car come to a complete stop – I continued moving forward at all times.

Furthermore, the traffic light change which can be seen in the video evidence caused the car in front of me to stop the exact moment I entered the box junction area. 
The driver in front of my vehicle stopped quite suddenly at the point the lights changed from green to amber – verging on what could be described as an “emergency stop”. 
The majority of drivers would have reasonably expected the driver to continue through the amber light in the situation presented.
I therefore slowed (to avoid a collision) but did not stop and also - did not obstruct any traffic, as can be seen by vehicles entering Branfill Road from Station Road in the video. 

In summary - I maintain that I did not stop and even if this fact is challenged - the lack of clear video evidence showing a clear actual stop, as well as the impact on any other road users, would be subject to the de minimis rule.

To conclude - for the reasons set out above - I look forward to the swift cancellation of this PCN.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Incandescent on January 20, 2025, 12:41:37 pm
Only point 1 would win at adjudication.  Be aware that councils just reject everything, (or almost, like about >95%), so there is no point in writing reams and reams. The only unbiased place is London Tribunals but you have to risk the full PCN penalty there.
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on January 20, 2025, 10:34:31 am
Thank you very much for the response, @incandecent - much appreciated :) 

A few follow-up questions, if I may?

- In terms of a representation response, would the advice be to include the four points I've included in my first post?
- Is the lack of clear evidence of an actual stop a valid argument?
- Is there anything else I should add, do you think? 

Finally - are there any other "technicality"-type arguments I could use that I'm not aware of (in terms of what is/ins't written on the PNC doc. etc.?)

Thanks again!
Title: Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: Incandescent on January 20, 2025, 10:16:38 am
Well, having viewed the video, I think you maybe did stop for a very short period, but at the point where it is not totally clear you stopped or not, there is a car crossing at your rear obscuring your wheels, which is how one can see if you're stopped or not. So submit reps on the basis of not-stopping saying that the video shows no stop in the box. They will reject what you say regardless, so if you want to fight this, you'd have to take them to London Tribunals for an unbiased result.
Title: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
Post by: richythepom on January 20, 2025, 09:00:58 am
Hello @cp8759 and all,

First time posting on here - what a resource! 

Please find below link to (redacted) images of my PCN, which I received through the post yesterday (19/01/25) and which relates to an alleged contravention on 23/12/24... (I've also tried to attach my redacted doc., too.)

(https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O3ueRGnnbPQAvNqfiFDGtBJP4uHjkeUt/view?usp=drive_link)

In terms of what I think (or hope?!) might be reasonable and pertinent reasons to challenge, I've come up with the below four possibilities:

1. Contravention alleged  on PCN states "Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited" and I did not stop my vehicle at any point.  The continued movement of my vehicle is clear in the video evidence provided.
2. The traffic light changed causing the car in front of me to stop the exact moment I entered the box junction area - I slowed but did not stop and did not obstruct any traffic, as can be seen by vehicles entering Branfill Road from Station Road in the video evidence provided.
3. I maintain that I did not stop, but even if this claim is maintained, the period stopped would be de minimis.
4. PCN states "... The vehicle was observed from to on 23/12/2024...." which does not make sense.

Here is a link to the Google Street View of the location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nf8MRYNUu7yRr84y7

I've not received (or challenged!) one of these before; therefore,please could I ask for some help in terms of whether there's much chance of an appeal being successful and if so, how I might best go about it?

Many thanks!

[attachment deleted by admin]