Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: majikd on January 19, 2025, 07:41:03 pm
-
Thanks. It keeps me off the streets. 8)
Which helps the rest of us stay on the streets - poetic (sort of)!
-
Thanks. It keeps me off the streets. 8)
-
They will reject and I am more than happy to represent you if/when necessary.
Thank you and I will continue to be grateful for your assistance :)
-
They will reject and I am more than happy to represent you if/when necessary.
-
Technically, the deemed sate of service is later; but...
1. Take a screenshot of their grounds page and keep for later.
2. Dear Greenwich, I require you to consider my informal challenge as formal representations against the EN.
Please cancel.
****
(I have to say their evidence is appalling.)
Ah I see. I haven submitted my representations and I thank you as always for your advice. Will update once I receive a response.
-
Technically, the deemed sate of service is later; but...
1. Take a screenshot of their grounds page and keep for later.
2. Dear Greenwich, I require you to consider my informal challenge as formal representations against the EN.
Please cancel.
****
(I have to say their evidence is appalling.)
-
Ai to that! Ai=three-toed sloth.
So EN has arrived... grateful for any advice on the next steps.
Date of issue: 07/03/2025
Representation deadline: 04/04/2025
(https://i.imgur.com/ERGVxz8.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hONMyTJ.jpeg)
-
Ai to that! Ai=three-toed sloth.
-
Wait for the EM.
Oops I meant EN! :o
I am no good at Scrabble!
No bad thing in my view as two letter words ruin scrabble for me!
-
;D
-
Wait for the EM.
ok thanks will await the EN.
-
Wait for the EM.
Oops I meant EN! :o
I am no good at Scrabble!
-
We just await and then submit an amended rep. v the Enforcement Notice if and when received after the rejection!
Rejection received (no surprise there!) see images below. While I suspect the response is fairly boilerplate and not uncommon for councils to overlook specific points or requests in representations, this particular reply seems even more off. It references parking and entering a bus lane too early for a turn, which doesnt seem relevant to the alleged contravention in my case.
Could I please get advice on the next steps, if any? Should I wait for the Enforcement Notice and then formally challenge the PCN at that stage?
(https://i.imgur.com/uemMmoz.png?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/ArETBwO.png?1)
-
We just await and then submit an amended rep. v the Enforcement Notice if and when received after the rejection!
Understood - thank you!
-
We just await and then submit an amended rep. v the Enforcement Notice if and when received after the rejection!
-
Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence
Dear Greenwich Council Team,
I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.
In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following points:
1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA).
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.
Yours sincerely,
Thank you. I am afraid I had already submitted my response to the PCN. Is there anything I should be aware due to the fact I have included that text or it is for good order?
-
Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence
Dear Greenwich Council Team,
I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.
In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following points:
1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA).
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.
Yours sincerely,
-
Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence
Dear Greenwich Council Team,
I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.
In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following points:
1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA).
Given the above concerns, I respectfully request the PCN be cancelled unless you are able to adequately address points 24.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.
Yours sincerely,
-
Yes.
-
They have to prove the contravention and signage. Do they?
Thank you for your response. No they do not prove the signage on the letter or the evidence on their website. Is that grounds to dispute it therefore? I had a search on the forum and found your advice for a similar case so should I look to dispute it as follows? Should I make any reference to the fact the times of operation changed and proof of an additional sign to highlight that point? Grateful for any other suggestions as maybe I don't need the preamble. Thanking you in advance
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hackney-bus-lane-hackney-road-no-signs/15/
I am disappointed in having received this PCN for a road I use regularly and I am very familiar with as a local resident. I was unaware that this bus lane operates at this time of day seeing as its purpose is to aid thoroughfare of buses at peak hours when the Blackwall tunnel is busy and as a local resident that is certainly not the case at this time of day.
1. The video evidence does not show any signage, either warning and/or bus lane signage passed.
2. I put you to strict proof that such signs were reflectorised.
3. I out you to strict proof that there is any warning signage at all junctions before entering the said bus lane.
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used at this location has the relevant approval from the VCA.
In light of the above, and should you not be able to address points 2-4, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
-
They have to prove the contravention and signage. Do they?
-
It's no defence to break the speed limit if the limit sign changes so yes you do need to check parking and moving traffic signs.
The video won't show it so what was your route.
There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.
Others may chip in here - some councils haven't had official camera authorisation and some have mucked up website representation grounds but London bus lanes have an enforcement notice stage and you you're not at that.
thank you again. I will look into the camera authorisation point to see if I can find out.
Please find the below image, which I hope is sufficient to answer your question regarding my route. Please let me know if you require further information
(https://i.imgur.com/fgQedXn.png)
-
It's no defence to break the speed limit if the limit sign changes so yes you do need to check parking and moving traffic signs.
The video won't show it so what was your route.
There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.
Others may chip in here - some councils haven't had official camera authorisation and some have mucked up website representation grounds but London bus lanes have an enforcement notice stage and you you're not at that.
-
Thank you for your response. Ive addressed your points below:
You can never assume something is the same today as it was yesterday.
A truism for many aspects of life! To clarify, does this mean its not a valid argument to dispute an offence like this? In other words, would the council simply argue the point youve made, disregarding whether its reasonable to expect a driver to review every signpost on every drive, even if theyre familiar with the route?
Are you saying your route was via a left turn just before the sign?
Yes, thats correct. To clarify, my route involved a left turn immediately before the sign. This sign had an additional notice beneath it indicating that the hours of operation had changed. I believe the cameras recorded the alleged offence approximately 500m further along the bus lane. However, at that point, the signs only display the hours of operation without the additional notice about the change, which seems inconsistent.
There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.
Apologies if Ive misunderstood, but Im not entirely sure what you mean here. Id appreciate it if you could clarify or elaborate further.
-
You can never assume something is the same today as it was yesterday.
Are you saying your route was via a left turn just before the sign?
There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.
-
Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - Being in a Bus Lane (Camera Enforcement) Blackwall Lane Bus Lane NB
Outline of Case and Potential Grounds to Dispute
- Date of Alleged Offence: 04/01/2025
- Date of Notification: 10/01/2025
- 14-Day Deadline: 24/01/2025
Thank you in advance for any assistance. I am uncertain if I have valid grounds to appeal, but I would greatly appreciate your guidance.
The alleged offence occurred in a bus lane on a road I use regularly, and I believed I was familiar with the hours of operation. However, upon receiving the PCN, I discovered that the operational hours had changed back in 2023. According to the article linked in the supporting evidence section, the bus lane hours were extended, but I had not noticed this change.
Potential Grounds for Dispute:
1. Local Road User Awareness:
Is it reasonable to expect a regular local road user to check the signs every time they pass, especially on routes they frequently use? I failed to notice the time change and question how effectively this change was communicated to the public.
2. Signage Prominence:
The sign at the start of the bus lane does indicate the change in hours, but I question whether it is sufficiently prominent. The sign appears soon after a left turn and a pelican crossing, where drivers' attention would naturally be on pedestrians and other immediate hazards.
3.Driving Record:
I have never previously received a PCN, despite regularly driving the same route using the bus lane since the operational hours were extended. Is there any basis that only starting to issue PCNs over a year later provides any grounds to dispute?
I appreciate any advice, especially on whether these grounds are reasonable or if there are additional arguments I could present.
Supporting Evidence and References:
PCN images and Council Correspondence:
(https://i.imgur.com/Bd0XpRh.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pixg3Kw.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ahd8OFk.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HOhyHOJ.jpeg)
Relevant News Article:
An article confirms the council extended the bus lane hours from 7am-7pm to 6am-10pm on 04/09/2023 following a TfL request. It notes that the change was publicized via lamp post notices and local press, but no objections were received.
Full Article Link (https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/news/protesters-take-to-street-to-fight-against-bus-lane-blocking-110-year-old-social-club/)
Excerpt:
Following a request by TfL, the council changed the bus lane operation times from 7am to 7pm to 6am to 10pm to address issues with traffic and significant bus delays in the area. The council made the change after notifying people about the proposal, including advertising on public notices on nearby lamp posts and in local press. No objections were received.
Streetview Evidence:
Location of Alleged Offence (https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.487849,0.007606,0.2h,-11.09p,0.98z,VBCymGZvKL_KqpEp9-tIEA)
(https://i.imgur.com/Y290gqa.jpeg)
Start of the Bus Lane (https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.486067,0.007232,292.58h,12.25p,0.62z,KiV2uDC24QdylmAKlJylOw)
(https://i.imgur.com/tu4eE05.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/90qI1T8.jpeg)