Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Rlcjael on January 18, 2025, 06:13:31 pm
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not forgetting the article about the problems Royal Mail were experiencing.
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I don't think that it is clear what point is trying to be made here. That the NIP's were served out of time and therefore invalid?
I think it’s pretty clear (to anyone who knows the law) that that is a possibility.
That is a difficult defence at the best of times. When these things are challenged, courts are presented with comprehensive evidence of the administrative systems used to handle these documents. If you had a statement from the Manager of your local delivery office categorically stating that no post was delivered during say a two week period due to staff shortages then it would be worth giving it a try but short of that or something similar, you will be very much fighting an uphill battle regarding NIP invalidity.
I don’t think anyone can be so categoric as to what evidence is required.
The defendant has to show that it was more likely than not that the NIP(s) arrived late. How they do that is a matter for them and depends on the evidence available. At the moment we have, it seems, mum and son who can give evidence as to their arrival. The court might believe them or it might not but it is difficult to see why the court would decide that both have conspired to commit perjury.
At the end of the day, your statement :
He received 2 NIPS followed by 2 FPN’s.
...seems pretty ordinary and straightforward.
Straightforward but irrelevant to the NIP issue.
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I don't think that it is clear what point is trying to be made here. That the NIP's were served out of time and therefore invalid?
That is a difficult defence at the best of times. When these things are challenged, courts are presented with comprehensive evidence of the administrative systems used to handle these documents. If you had a statement from the Manager of your local delivery office categorically stating that no post was delivered during say a two week period due to staff shortages then it would be worth giving it a try but short of that or something similar, you will be very much fighting an uphill battle regarding NIP invalidity.
At the end of the day, your statement :
He received 2 NIPS followed by 2 FPN’s.
...seems pretty ordinary and straightforward.
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Very strange that a course wasn't offered either for one of the offences ...
You can attempt to prove the late delivery, your statement (or that of your Son as well as your statement) is evidence to the late delivery, but probably not sufficient ... however if you can get your Post(wo)man to testify as to what date(s) they delivered post to you then you are starting to swing the burden of proof your way?
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Incidentally, I have spoken to the postman who said they were overwhelmed before Christmas at their sorting office. I have searched online and there was an article in The Daily Mail saying Royal Mail was in chaos. This is dated 14/12/24 which would be within the timescales of the NIP’s being sent.
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Sadly not. I didn’t know anything about the 14 day rule at the time and we actually apologised when returning the NIP’s, saying that we’d only received them that day so were replying at the earliest opportunity.
I posted them back on the same day as I was worried about them already being 16 days old, at that point, and didn’t want them to think we’d been dragging our feet.
I know I’m completely clueless but I’ve held my licence for over 30 years and have no points so it’s all very alien to me.
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Do you still have the envelopes that the NIP's came in? and if so, are they postmarked with a date showing?
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The NIPs were both dated the 11/12/24 but not received until 27/12/24.
It’s not uncommon for us to only get post delivered once or twice a week and with it being Christmas, I presume this added to the delay.
I know the date they were received because they were such a shock bearing in mind the consequences.
As per previous advice though, I’m not going to be able to prove it so guess it’s probably a lost cause.
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Tell us more about the potential late NIP? How do you know the date it was received? What is the date of the NIP?
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Thank you for taking the time to respond and for your advice. It is much appreciated.
I’m sorry that my write ups weren’t precise.
Kind regards,
Rachel
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I’m afraid, from what you tell us, it seems very likely his licence will be revoked,
Unless the court finds that there are “special reasons” not to endorse his licence and impose points, they must impose three points for each offence. The “special reasons” must be to do with the circumstances of the offence itself, not his personal circumstances.
The court is unlikely to do this as there is nothing you have told us about either offence which might suggest this.
With the offences occurring in separate journeys in opposite directions, there is no chance of the court considering them as a single offence or of two offences committed “on the same occasion” (when only one lot of points would be imposed).
It might be worth enquiring why no course was offered. He has no right to a course but it might be worth a phone call. Apart from that, the only sliver of hope I can see is the late NIP. The police must serve the NIP within 14 date of the offence date. Postal difficulties do not alter that requirement. The difficulty is that the NIP is presumed delivered two working days after posting unless the contrary can be proved. The burden of that proof will rest with your son. This will mean he must decline the fixed penalty offer and plead not guilty in court. From what you say, without legal representation (for which he will have to bear the cost) this may cause him some difficulty.
The revocation of his licence is not a judicial decision to be taken by the court. It is an administrative function undertaken by the DVLA when they learn of his six points. The court has no control over it.
It is important to understand that revocation does not mean he is disqualified from driving. If his licence is revoked, he can immediately apply for a new provisional licence and can begin driving (in accordance with Its conditions) as soon as he has it, He will, of course, have to pass his test (both parts) again.
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I’m really sorry that I typed the numbers incorrectly, I am using my phone at the moment and the keypad is not great.
As for him typing it himself, he wouldn’t be able to sadly. I’m not going to go into his disabilities but I can assure you that his licence is very important to him.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
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If his licence is so important to your son, perhaps he could post here himself with an accurate version of events?
So far, you have repeatedly told us that he has received FPNs, that the NIP was received 17 days after the date of the offence, and that they were received 20 days after the date of offence. And took 6 posts and a great deal of tooth pulling to do so.
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The offences were both 07/12/24
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He passed in Aug 24 and has no other convictions or driving offences.
We asked if they would consider a course when returning the NIPs but they declined.
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So sorry, NIPs were received on 27/12/24 not 17th (typing on phone)
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To briefly answer your questions:
A) is a non-starter.
B) is a possibility (the Christmas post does not amend the duty on the police to serve the NIP within 14 days).
C) will almost certainly fail. There is no reason for the court to do this other than to avoid his licence being revoked and they are unlikely to do it.
A speed of 64 in a 50 limit will usually see the offer of a course. Has he done one previously?
When did he pass his test and what was the date of these offences?
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Apologies, he has 2 conditional offers (3 points and £100 fine for each)
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He received 2 NIPS followed by 2 FPN’s.
He is registered keeper so shouldn’t have been any delay there. The NIPs were dated 11/12/24 but not received until 17/12/24 so believe this will be a postal issue.
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Hi, my son has received 2 FPN’s for speeding on the motorway (64 and 69 in temporary 50 zone).
The final thing to mention is that the NIP was received 17 days after the offence date albeit it was probably delayed due to the Christmas post.
So what has he really received?
Two NIPs? Or two NIPs to which he has responded and now has two COFPs (not FPNs)? Or what?
As for the 17 days, is he the registered keeper? I.e. does he have the V5C (logbook), and are the details correct?
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Hi, my son has received 2 FPN’s for speeding on the motorway (64 and 69 in temporary 50 zone). Both offences on the same date; one driving one way, the second driving back. They were within an hour of each other.
He doesn’t have a defence. He set his speed to 70 and didn’t take account/reduce it.
My question is whether it is worth asking to go to court to plead mitigating circumstances?
He is disabled and was agoraphobic prior to passing his test (due to being seriously assaulted). He is autistic and can’t use public transport as he is so scared (the assault was linked to a bus journey). He managed to come off antidepressants and was finally enjoying life with the independence that driving gave him however if he receives 6 points, his licence will be revoked and I’ll be back on suicide watch.
He also helps me as I have Lupus and now have to have monthly immunotherapy which he takes me to and from (not at a local hospital).
Finally, his little brother is also disabled and he helps take and pick him up from school (as I work full time). His brother is selective mute and won’t use a bus.
The final thing to mention is that the NIP was received 17 days after the offence date albeit it was probably delayed due to the Christmas post.
Just wondering if it would be worth asking the court to consider;
A) treating the 2 offences as one
B) raising the issue with the service of the NIP
C) asking the court to impose a short ban instead of points (to avoid revocation of licence)
Or is this a lost cause?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.