Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: RoutineSystem4728 on January 15, 2025, 02:28:39 pm
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Well we didn't get costs, but it was worth a shot.
Outcome here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aw9XF88Qb8jfTqWf8lIMJYt2FFloJFoC/view).
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@RoutineSystem4728 well that's the most procedurally defective Notice of Rejection I've ever seen, this should be an absolute slam-dunk at the tribunal and you have a fair chance of even getting a costs order against the council.
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All attached now.
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The rest of it please, that's just the first page.
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Please find NoR attached.
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Thank you for your response and offer. How do I go about appealing immediately? There was no code given on the notice of rejection.
Post it up and I'll have a look. As far as I can see you've only posted the covering email.
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Thank you for your response and offer. How do I go about appealing immediately? There was no code given on the notice of rejection.
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The formal representation was submitted on 14 December and it was via e-mail.
I have attached the e-mail which contained the NoR . The e-mail was sent on 13 January.
Then the date of service of the Notice of Rejection is 13 January, so you have until 9 February 2025 to appeal. I wouldn't wait, you might as well appeal now, the system will assume the appeal is out of time and ask you why, but all you need to do is explain that you did not receive the Notice of Rejection in the post and only got a copy via email after you chased it up, attach a copy of the NoR and crucially attach a copy of the covering email.
Alternatively you can instruct me to represent you, I'll send you a PM in case you'd prefer that.
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Put the handbags away.
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NA.
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Interesting issue here IMO.
As I understand it:
Date of issue of PCN: 16 June 2024.
Applicable legislation: TMA.
Date of issue of NTO: 13 Dec. 2024.
Deemed date of service: 17 Dec.
[3) Service of such a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted is to be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.]
Elapsed period: 6 months and 1 day.
From the General Regs:
2) A notice to owner may not be served after the expiry of the period of 6 months beginning with the relevant date.
4) For the purposes of this regulation, the relevant date—
d)in any other case, is the date on which the relevant penalty charge notice was served under regulation 9.
IMO, prima facie the NTO is invalid because it's been served out of time: the council's action in issuing the NTO on 13 Dec. was ultra vires. However, de facto it was served on 14th Dec. i.e. within the 6-month period.
Any views?
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I didn’t say you can’t comment, just said I’d rather you not seeing as though you were being obnoxious, and rightly so since now you’ve decided to contribute by attaching the step-by-step process (which mind you, has already been posted by a helpful member, John B a few days ago).
I’m not sure why it’s infuriated you when I’ve told you the reasoning for paying the PCN would give me a peace of mind. I highlighted that this was due to not wanting bailiffs turning up on my doorstep, but rather, you dismissed it as ‘stupid’. Why on earth would I ask for your assistance after that?
Anyways, thank you for providing your input on the best way to move forward. That I appreciate. I’ll make up my mind towards the end of the week and see if I want to pay the PCN or if I want to go forward with the appeal.
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I’m struggling to understand what exactly you’re doing here besides writing annoying comments. Unlike Enceladus and the others who have actually laid out step by step processes as well as the alternative if I don’t want to go through the lengthy process. Since you’re not providing anything beneficial, I’d rather you not comment. It’s not as if I’ll be asking you to review my appeal or witness statement with your lazy comments and multiple spelling errors.
DON't DARE tell me when I can or can't post.
As I explained to you before, I and others may be watching and happy that the correct info has been given to you.
In my case I haven't found the need to post in detail and prefer not to as I'm a bit unwell at the moment.
But your ridiculous statement that you intend to pay just infuriarated me. Don't make assumptions and, as I said before, ask.
I agree with Enceladusin in advising you to wait for the OfR. Your alternative of making an appeal to tribunal unilaterally is unlikely to succeed as your terminology has been shown not to be up to scratch.
We actually have a sticky describing the simple procees you now need to be familiar with >
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
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This is very helpful. Thank you very much. I’m now considering this process.
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I’m struggling to understand what exactly you’re doing here besides writing annoying comments. Unlike Enceladus and the others who have actually laid out step by step processes as well as the alternative if I don’t want to go through the lengthy process. Since you’re not providing anything beneficial, I’d rather you not comment. It’s not as if I’ll be asking you to review my appeal or witness statement with your lazy comments and multiple spelling errors.
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It seems as though, even though the council are in the wrong here, to just pay the £64, which would give me a peace of mind.
Stupid.
Why would you do that? Nothig is difficult in your case.
Payment potentially cause many others to suffer as Newham thinknthey can get away with it.
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Thank you for your in-depth answer and assistance throughout this process. I appreciate it very much.
The written representation was done through the council portal, I have attached the screenshot.
It seems as though, even though the council are in the wrong here, to just pay the £64, which would give me a peace of mind. I imagine I would end up making a silly mistake i.e missing a deadline/not filing something correctly in the process of trying to fight this battle. It’s frustrating because the council have not adhered to standards both procedurally and in maintaining the road signs, but what can we do.
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If you wait for the Order for Recovery then you can submit, to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court, the Witness Statement that will be included. You can use the ground of non-receipt of the Notice of Rejection to your formal representation. Do it within the time limit and the TEC will order the OfR revoked and the CC cancelled, so you'll be back to a liability of £130. The case will be referred to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed. Likely the case will be heard as an appeal. Since there doesn't seem to be a properly formatted NoR I would expect the Adjudicator to uphold your appeal and you would have nothing to pay. There are several other procedural mistakes especially the serving of the Charge Cert before they were allowed to.
But if you lose you would be liable for £129. Right now it looks you can close the case for £64.
Stick with the process and there won't be any bailiff enforcement.
The key issue for the Adjudicator will be whether or not a formal representation was submitted and delivered to the Council on or before the 13th of Jan. On the one hand the answer seems to be yes as you have an email confirming they received a representation. On the other hand it may be that you did not submit in the manner specified on the NTO.
"I submitted the representation via the Council website and was given a code in return for my appeal. I have a screenshot of this. I no longer have the full text for my full representation, however, I used the following for the main body of my Grounds of Appeal."
Please post up the "screenshot"? Blank out your name and address and leave the rest visible. And please let's see the email or letter with the code "for my appeal". Or was that another screenshot?
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I was responding to the Enceladus response saying see what others have to say when he was the only responding. Fortunately someone else did respond earlier.
I’m just wondering whether it would be better to appeal to the adjudicator immediately or wait for the Order for Recovery. Seeing these constant letters and reminders gives me anxiety, that’s all, and the last thing that I want is bailiffs turning up on my doorstep.
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I don’t think many others would response to this forum, seeing as though you’re the only that seems to be helping. In that case, perhaps it’d be better to er on the side of caution and appeal to the independent adjudicator immediately? I don’t really want this charge to rack up any further and bring any more headache down the line. However I have no problem drafting a witness statement if required and can do this myself. Please do let me know what you think. Thank you.
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\maybe others, like me, are watching with interest and noting that you have been givem accurate advice.
Is there anmything you don't understand?
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I submitted the representation via the Council website and was given a code in return for my appeal. I have a screenshot of this. I no longer have the full text for my full representation, however, I used the following for the main body of my Grounds of Appeal.
"**Lack of Adequate Signage:**
According to Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, it is required that traffic signs indicating the effect of an order be placed to ensure that they are adequate to convey the order to the road users. In this case, there was no signage indicating the hours of operation or the specific restrictions of the loading bay where my vehicle was parked. The only indication is a marking on the road, which is insufficient without accompanying signs. This lack of proper signage does not comply with the legal requirements and thus invalidates the PCN[/i]".
I feel as though I have uploaded sufficient information over the past week. In regards to next steps, what do you think the best course of action is?
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Please post up the text of your "formal representation" that you submitted via email on the 14th Dec.
What email address did you send it to.
The NTO that you have posted says that you need to use their website and a security code to submit representations. I don't see any postal or email address on the NTO. Are there any provided?
However the email response from the council does refer to your "representation" several times and also gives you a deadline of the 27th Jab to pay at the discount rate of £65. And sure enough the amount outstanding on the Council site yesterday was £64.
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Yep it’s all correct. Seems as though there’s serious procedural issues that were not followed by Newham Council. Let’s see if we get any further responses down the line. Thank you for your help.
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Do have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-notic/
My understanding is that you can truthfully assert that you did not receive a Notice of Rejection. See what others say.
I don’t really want this charge to rack up any further and bring any more headache down the line.
Provided you stick to process, the penalty cannot increase further, and if the Charge Certificate has been issued prematurely you should succeed at Tribunal. Once you have a date for hearing you will get further advice about the grounds of appeal to include.
Again, see what others here advise.
Is your name & address on the V5C correct in every particular?
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you will get further responses.
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The formal representation was submitted on 14 December and it was via e-mail.
I have attached the e-mail which contained the NoR . The e-mail was sent on 13 January.
I don’t think many others would response to this forum, seeing as though you’re the only that seems to be helping. In that case, perhaps it’d be better to er on the side of caution and appeal to the independent adjudicator immediately? I don’t really want this charge to rack up any further and bring any more headache down the line. However I have no problem drafting a witness statement if required and can do this myself. Please do let me know what you think. Thank you.
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In December, I received a higher charge PCN saying that the PCN doubled from £64 to £129. At this point I appealed on the grounds that the Council failed to maintain adequate road signage, and the loading bay was also unmarked. I stated that the Council have a responsibility to maintain clear signs, and this was in accordance with Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.
I received no response from the Council, and in January I received a Charge Notice. I notified the Council that I received no response to my appeal, after which they wrote back to me via e-mail stating that the they had sent the letter notifying me that the appeal failed. The letter was attached to the e-mail and dated 23 December 2024. I have a feeling that this letter was backdated, as I received both the higher PCN charge and the charge notice, but somehow did not receive this.
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As I understand you, in December 2024 you received the Notice to Owner dated the 13th Dec. You then submitted a formal representation (challenge) to the Council.
When did you submit the representation and was it online or Royal Mail?
You then received an email.
When did the email arrive with you and please post up the text of the email. Redact your name & address and email address. Leave everything visible.
The letter dated the 23rd Dec does not appear to be a properly formatted Notice of Rejection. It does not say it's an NoR and there is no verification code for the London Tribunals. The code is required to submit an appeal to the Adjudicator. Nor does it state the timeframe for an appeal. The letter does give you 14 days beginning the 23rd Dec to pay the balance of £64. So it's arguably an out of process reminder letter and not a formal notice of rejection.
13/12/2024 = Fri = date of NTO and presumed date of posting
17/12/2024 = Tue = 2nd working day = deemed date of service = day 1 of 28 day relevant period
07/12/2025 = Tue = date of CC = day 22
13/01/2024 = Mon = day 28 of 28 day relevant period
14/01/2025 = Tue = day 29 = 1st day the Council could lawfully issue a CC
I'm wondering if it's better to wait for the Order for Recovery and to then submit a Witness Statement. Or try and submit an appeal to the Adjudicator immediately, without the code. See what others have to say.
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Apologies yet again, you can clearly see that I’m a rookie here. I have attached both pages of the Notice of Rejection. Fortunately, I also have the screenshot for the £1 charge which I paid. Please find attached.
Thank you for providing the process for appeal. Given that you are satisfied there’s grounds of appeal post reviewing the NoR, am I correct in that the appeal to the independent adjudicator should be done through the London Tribunal Appeals portal?
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Apologies yet again, you can clearly see that I’m a rookie here. I have attached both pages of the Notice of Rejection. Fortunately, I also have the screenshot for the £1 charge which I paid. Please find attached.
Thank you for providing the process for appeal. Given that you are satisfied there’s grounds of appeal post reviewing the NoR, am I correct in that the appeal to the independent adjudicator should be done through the London Tribunal Appeals portal?
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@RoutineSystem4728
We need to see all of the pages of the Notice of Rejection. That's the letter dated 23rd Dec 2024.
From that we should be able to confirm the best way forward which I suspect will be to submit an appeal to the independent Adjudicator. Likely on the basis of "procedural impropriety, in respect of the pre-mature Charge Certificate
I know the £1 discrepancy is because you managed to pay £1. Did you happen to keep a screenshot?
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They’re crooks and cowboys for sure. If you have a look at the response they sent me, it looks as if they backdated the letter. Just another council trying to rob the locals through PCNs.
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Thank you for your response and forgive me for not reading the guidelines accurately. I have attached both sides of the Notice of Charge, with the PCN number and number plate of the car made visible.
The reason why there is a £1 deduction is highlighted on the third paragraph of my main post, but I’ll write it down here anyway. When I first received the PCN I immediately checked the PCN portal on the council website and saw a charge of £1. I assumed this might be the total price so I paid it and had an out of sight out of mind mentality. I didn’t receive anything for the next 30 days so assumed that the PCN was discharged but unfortunately received the Notice of Charge (attached to this comment) early in December. I guess this was more like temporary charge, until the council fully updated the PCN.
Given that the appeal cannot be dismissed, what would the next steps be in this case. Also out of curiosity, what’s your opinion on the matter overall in regards to the loading bay being unmarked and the road sign posts covered due to the overgrown bushes.
Thank you for your help. It’s much appreciated.
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Please look at the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the Forum.
You were told to only redact your name & address and to leave the vehicle reg and the PCN number visible. So please get that corrected.
The NTO is for £129 and should be £130.
The Charge Certificate is for £194 and should be £195.
The Charge Certificate is dated Jan 7th and that appears to be too early as the NTO was issued on the 13th Dec.
In addition there's a Notice of Rejection dated 23rd Dec which the OP says re-offers the discount payment but at £64 instead of £65.
And the NoR should still be in-time to submit an appeal.
Please post up all sides of all pages of the Notice of Rejection.
What on earth are they smoking in Newham council !
Looks like a serious enough error to be a procedural impropriety within the TMA 2004 regulations
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Please look at the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the top of the Forum.
You were told to only redact your name & address and to leave the vehicle reg and the PCN number visible. So please get that corrected.
The NTO is for £129 and should be £130.
The Charge Certificate is for £194 and should be £195.
The Charge Certificate is dated Jan 7th and that appears to be too early as the NTO was issued on the 13th Dec.
In addition there's a Notice of Rejection dated 23rd Dec which the OP says re-offers the discount payment but at £64 instead of £65.
And the NoR should still be in-time to submit an appeal.
Please post up all sides of all pages of the Notice of Rejection.
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Apologies, please find all notices attached and response from council regarding appeal. Thank you.
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We need to see all the documents to decide.
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Hi all,
Last year, in June, I received a PCN for parking on a loading bay (please find picture attached to this post).
To begin with, the PCN was issued on a Sunday. On that specific day, I entered into the road and looked for signs to see whether there were any parking restrictions. As you can see from the photos, the loading bay mark on the floor was barely visible There were also two black road sign posts, one of which did not contain any signs whatsoever. The road sign post which contained the actual loading bay sign was covered by overgrown bushes. I genuinely did not see the sign. Given that it was a Sunday, and the fact that there was inadequate signage, I decided to park in the bay.
When I received the PCN on the day, I immediately checked evidence on the Newham Council PCN portal. I saw that there was a charge of £1, which I paid. This is where I probably went wrong, as I thought I could get away with paying £1 for a PCN, and had a out of sight out of mind mentality. I did not receive any notification of an escalated penalty charge for the next 30 days, and assumed that the PCN had gone away. Rookie mistake.
In December, I received a higher charge PCN saying that the PCN doubled from £64 to £129. At this point I appealed on the grounds that the Council failed to maintain adequate road signage, and the loading bay was also unmarked. I stated that the Council have a responsibility to maintain clear signs, and this was in accordance with Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.
I received no response from the Council, and in January I received a Charge Notice. I notified the Council that I received no response to my appeal, after which they wrote back to me via e-mail stating that the they had sent the letter notifying me that the appeal failed. The letter was attached to the e-mail and dated 23 December 2024. I have a feeling that this letter was backdated, as I received both the higher PCN charge and the charge notice, but somehow did not receive this.
Anyways, the reasoning that was given was the following:
"I can confirm that there is a sign at the location and your vehicle was parked next to the sign (IMG_1053.jpg)
Our records indicate that a payment for the sum of £1 was received in settlement of the above PCN. Therefore £64 remains outstanding".
The council have stated that as a gesture of goodwill, they will revert the price of the PCN back to £64 and I have two weeks to pay. My question is, is it worth appealing this and taking this matter further and if so, what will the process be like? I don't mind paying the reduced PCN, but it seems as though the council are in the wrong here as they failed to maintain clear signs. From the pictures, you can see that the sign was clearly being covered by the bushes. It's ridiculous that the council expect us to study these signs when they fail to maintain basic standard themselves. On top of that the loading bay mark on the floor was also not visible.
I would greatly appreciate any advice/help on the best way forward with this PCN.
Thank you.
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