Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: pfenig on January 13, 2025, 12:54:48 pm
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At least you tried. TFL's penalties are higher than other London authorities which makes it a bigger gamble to appeal.
They do sometimes make very generous offers for refused appeals - yesterday they let someone off 13 ULEZ PCNs by accepting the charge for each instead of the penalty - a massive saving.
Transport for London confirmed that they are willing to accept the discounted outstanding amount of £12.50, total £162.50 if payment is made and received within 14 days of the date of this letter. This payment can only be made by calling the contact centre during the opening hours. If full payment has not been made within 14 days, the penalty amount will revert to £180 for each contravention, total £2340 and Transport for London will be able to pursue its normal enforcement procedures. Adjudicators do not have the power to reduce the amount of the penalty or accept payments by instalments. Payments for penalties is a matter between the Appellant and Transport for London.
Wow, I'd like to read how that lucky person got around that, well done them.
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At least you tried. TFL's penalties are higher than other London authorities which makes it a bigger gamble to appeal.
They do sometimes make very generous offers for refused appeals - yesterday they let someone off 13 ULEZ PCNs by accepting the charge for each instead of the penalty - a massive saving.
Transport for London confirmed that they are willing to accept the discounted outstanding amount of £12.50, total £162.50 if payment is made and received within 14 days of the date of this letter. This payment can only be made by calling the contact centre during the opening hours. If full payment has not been made within 14 days, the penalty amount will revert to £180 for each contravention, total £2340 and Transport for London will be able to pursue its normal enforcement procedures. Adjudicators do not have the power to reduce the amount of the penalty or accept payments by instalments. Payments for penalties is a matter between the Appellant and Transport for London.
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I paid both remaining PCN's today at the discounted rate. What a scam. Thank you everyone for trying to help.
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Sorry - the registers are here:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
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Have a browse through the Road User Charging Adjudicators cases - you can see what they do. We don't tend to monitor road charging adjudications as they are often cut and dried and in London they all involve TFL.
But we also know TFL doesn't contest a lot of cases (parking/moving traffic - not sure about road charging).
https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:30::INITIALISE::Y::&cs=3p-xIrMTzn7Fx1lDRyAqLHlVXj7WuaintamCkg8m_eBIn-Eq2w52yRYjVeKRbewy2_PpNe0tJOrwX6BMghcGQ9A
That link doesn't seem to work for me?
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So I gather I have no choice but to pay it right?
No, you do have a choice, but if you decide to take them to London Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play and as far as I can see looking back in the thread, so far nobody has come up with a good appeal argument. In a case like this, it very likely would be a "technical" appeal not related to the actual contraventions, but based on TfL mismanagement of the enforcement process defined in statute and associated regulations.
I'm not sure I have the stomach to fight them at this point, I'm more concerned about forgetting I even have the PCN's and getting penalised, I think I may just take the bullet and settle, and from what you wrote I understand I don't have a good case, even though it is the truth of what happened.
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Have a browse through the Road User Charging Adjudicators cases - you can see what they do. We don't tend to monitor road charging adjudications as they are often cut and dried and in London they all involve TFL.
But we also know TFL doesn't contest a lot of cases (parking/moving traffic - not sure about road charging).
https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:30::INITIALISE::Y::&cs=3p-xIrMTzn7Fx1lDRyAqLHlVXj7WuaintamCkg8m_eBIn-Eq2w52yRYjVeKRbewy2_PpNe0tJOrwX6BMghcGQ9A
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So I gather I have no choice but to pay it right?
No, you do have a choice, but if you decide to take them to London Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play and as far as I can see looking back in the thread, so far nobody has come up with a good appeal argument. In a case like this, it very likely would be a "technical" appeal not related to the actual contraventions, but based on TfL mismanagement of the enforcement process defined in statute and associated regulations.
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So I gather I have no choice but to pay it right?
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A very long letter of rejection which basically tells you to sod-off and pay. They are playing hard-ball and unfortunately if you take them to London Tribunals they can only decide on the statutory grounds for an appeal; they cannot apply mitigation.
Have you yet paid up ?
I've not paid yet I have until this coming Thursday.
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A very long letter of rejection which basically tells you to sod-off and pay. They are playing hard-ball and unfortunately if you take them to London Tribunals they can only decide on the statutory grounds for an appeal; they cannot apply mitigation.
Have you yet paid up ?
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I take it they refused the e-mail request?
They wouldn't email us the letter but they said they'd send another copy, in any case the following below arrived today. To be clear my mother wrote the representation and I attached my letter signed to it, I used the same address as my mother as I am currently there. I am not impressed with the response which presumed my mother was also somehow aware of all of this despite living in Lancashire at the same address. Here is what we wrote to make the representation and what they replied with.
Prelude (the part written by my mother)
(https://i.imgur.com/UWLOUFD.jpeg)
My letter signed and attached as a pdf
(https://i.imgur.com/hsCscoZ.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1SzDVr1.jpeg)
Their response
(https://i.imgur.com/Koy9xBY.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2iDO1x5.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/77YIv2t.jpeg)
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I take it they refused the e-mail request?
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Telephone, explain non-receipt and ask if they will e-mail you copies.
It's in the post, we have until the 20th to pay. Thanks
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Telephone, explain non-receipt and ask if they will e-mail you copies.
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It's Wednesday now, still nothing in the post... starting to get concerned! Should I call them?
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We still haven't received anything via the post, I am getting concerned that the penalty will jump up to £180 each.
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You might want to check yr e-mail junk box: see this
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/sutton-code-46-stopped-where-prohibited-(red-route)-os-46-50-high-street-sm3tfl-/msg56629/#new
I received the Notice of Rejection yesterday by email which landed in the the junk folder ::)
For the benefit of others, make sure to add NoReply@tflenforcement.com to your mailbox safe sender rules.
Much appreciated. I just checked my spam folder, nothing there...
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You might want to check yr e-mail junk box: see this
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/sutton-code-46-stopped-where-prohibited-(red-route)-os-46-50-high-street-sm3tfl-/msg56629/#new
I received the Notice of Rejection yesterday by email which landed in the the junk folder ::)
For the benefit of others, make sure to add NoReply@tflenforcement.com to your mailbox safe sender rules.
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should we be expecting TfL's reply in the post as well?
It has to come by post. Written on Friday you said (date in status timeline?). If posted on Friday, should arrive tomorrow or Tuesday. Given the state of the Royal Mail, I'd give it a few days before chasing it up. (I don't know if they will email it on request).
You have checked against both PCN numbers?
Until we see the rejection we do not know what errors may lie therein.
@cp8579 may well knmow if there are any fatal errors in the small print of TfL's ULEZ PCNs
(Posts Replies #2 and #14 on page 1 above).
I think I'd like to pay this and get it out of the way today,
You don't want to pay today and close the case only to find fatal errors in the Notices of Rejection when they arrive.
Ok thank you for letting me know, yes checked both of them, both rejected on the same day Friday.
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should we be expecting TfL's reply in the post as well?
It has to come by post. Written on Friday you said (date in status timeline?). If posted on Friday, should arrive tomorrow or Tuesday. Given the state of the Royal Mail, I'd give it a few days before chasing it up. (I don't know if they will email it on request).
You have checked against both PCN numbers?
Until we see the rejection we do not know what errors may lie therein.
@cp8579 may well knmow if there are any fatal errors in the small print of TfL's ULEZ PCNs
(Posts Replies #2 and #14 on page 1 above).
I think I'd like to pay this and get it out of the way today,
You don't want to pay today and close the case only to find fatal errors in the Notices of Rejection when they arrive.
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I think I'd like to pay this and get it out of the way today, should we be expecting TfL's reply in the post as well?
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FYI the representation was rejected today...
Please to post up the rejection, redacting only name & address.
Was your rep. exactly as per post Reply#20 above?
I haven't received the letters yet but I checked it online today. Yes the rep was the same as post Reply#20. At this point I'm thinking of just paying it....
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FYI the representation was rejected today...
Please to post up the rejection, redacting only name & address.
Was your rep. exactly as per post Reply#20 above?
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FYI the representation was rejected today...
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Well I'd like to get it sent off asap to them. Hopefully what I wrote will pass muster.
Looks OK to me, but don't be disappointed if they reject as this is normal for about 99% of cases, because they know that if they reject, >95% of people then just cough-up.
Well I sent it in online.. fingers crossed.. really feels like entrapment...
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Well I'd like to get it sent off asap to them. Hopefully what I wrote will pass muster.
Looks OK to me, but don't be disappointed if they reject as this is normal for about 99% of cases, because they know that if they reject, >95% of people then just cough-up.
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Well I'd like to get it sent off asap to them. Hopefully what I wrote will pass muster.
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Is what I've written acceptable for representation?
I'm concerned that the fine will jump from £90 to £180 if I do this, does anyone know how it works?
Normal practice for TfL is to re-offer the discount when rejecting reps received within the discount period.
If received outside this period they may still re-offer the discount when rejecting. Others on here are more familiar with the enforcement practices of TfL, so wait a bit but don't miss that discount end date. Remember it is receipt of reps by TfL, not when you send them, that counts, although with all cases using the on-line facility, the 'send' and 'receipt' is virtually the same.
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Is what I've written acceptable for representation?
I'm concerned that the fine will jump from £90 to £180 if I do this, does anyone know how it works?
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And what did your checks discover e.g. how many PCNs have actually been issued and is there one for each occurrence, including those where to the best of your recollection you entered the zone?
My question regarding time limit still applies and I hope other posters can assist.
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Is there a time limit on serving ULEZ PCNs?
Why would PCNs for later dates have been received while earlier dates are not e.g. 20, 21st Dec?
There are these 3. I also phoned in to TfL to check...
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Ok here goes, I can just send it in as an attached letter.
To whom it may concern,
I am writing to formally make representations regarding the penalty charge notices (PCNs) I received for driving into the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) entering Heathrow Airport on the 7th and 8th of January 2025.
While I fully accept responsibility for the first PCN (number xxxxx dated 20th December 2024) and have already paid it, I kindly request leniency and consideration for the subsequent PCNs numbers xxxxx, xxxx as they were incurred before I was aware of the first one.
While I was aware of the ULEZ expansion, I was not aware that it now recently extended to include Heathrow Airport. My family and I have not lived in London for several years, and this recent change in the ULEZ boundary caught us completely off guard. I only drove to Heathrow airport in December and January to drop off family members & for mishandled luggage by Virgin Airlines.
My family returned to Lancashire on January 13th, when I discovered the first PCN. Upon contacting TfL that same day, I learned I could no longer pay retroactively and must await the arrival of the PCNs. I was also informed that ULEZ zone signage for Heathrow Airport was clearly marked, though I honestly did not notice it upon my repeated entries. Although anecdotal, upon speaking to friends and acquaintances in Henley who use Heathrow Airport frequently, it became apparent that many others were also unaware of this recent change.
The timing of the PCNs is significant: had I received the first PCN (dated 1st January 2025) earlier, I would have been immediately aware of my error and avoided repeating it. It would be unreasonable to suggest that I knowingly entered the ULEZ on these later dates, as there would have been no benefit for me to do so, as I would have anticipated receiving additional penalties.
Given the circumstances, including the fact that:
- We live across the country and were not aware of the ULEZ change impacting Heathrow Airport,
- I was away and unable to receive the first PCN in time to adjust my behavior,
- I immediately tried to take corrective action upon learning of my mistake,
I respectfully ask for leniency and the cancellation of the PCNs. These entries into the ULEZ were made in genuine ignorance of the expanded zone’s boundaries, compounded by the delayed notification of my initial violation.
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Your reps are too long - I would make it clear you are asking for discretion on subsequent PCNs incurred before you were aware of the first one.
I am writing to formally make representations regarding the penalty charge notices (PCNs) I received for driving into the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) entering Heathrow Airport on the 7th and 8th of January 2025.
While I fully accept responsibility for the first PCN (number xxxxx dated 20th December 2024) and have already paid it, I kindly request leniency and consideration for the subsequent PCNs numbers xxxxx, xxxx as they were incurred before I was aware of the first one.
Then briefly about circumstances.
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Is there a time limit on serving ULEZ PCNs?
Why would PCNs for later dates have been received while earlier dates are not e.g. 20, 21st Dec?
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Ok here is my represenation Draft please let me know what you think?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally make representations regarding the penalty charge notices (PCNs) I received for driving into the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) entering Heathrow Airport on the 7th and 8th of January 2025. While I fully accept responsibility for the first PCN (dated 20th December 2024) and have already paid it, I kindly request leniency and consideration for the subsequent PCNs for the reasons outlined below.
1. Unawareness of Heathrow's Inclusion in the ULEZ Zone
While I was aware of the ULEZ expansion, I was not aware that it now extended to Heathrow Airport. My family and I have not lived in London for several years, and this change in the ULEZ boundary caught me completely off guard.
2. Circumstances of the Offense
- On the 20th of December, while staying in Henley-on-Thames, I drove to Heathrow Airport to drop off a family member. This was the first occasion I entered the ULEZ zone unknowingly.
- On the 7th and 8th of January, I drove into Heathrow Airport again under similar circumstances, unaware that the ULEZ charge applied to this area.
- My family returned home to Lancashire on the 13th of January, whereupon I discovered the first PCN in the mail.
3. Immediate Action Taken Upon Discovery
As soon as I opened the PCN issued for my journey on the 20th of December, I contacted Transport for London (TfL) on the 13th of January to attempt to retroactively pay for the ULEZ charges for my entries on the 7th and 8th of January. However, I was informed that payment was no longer possible at that stage, and that I would need to wait for the PCNs.
4. Mitigating Circumstances:
The timing of the PCNs is significant: had I received the first PCN (dated 1st January 2025) earlier, I would have been immediately aware of my error and avoided repeating it on the 7th and 8th of January. It would be unreasonable to suggest that I knowingly entered the ULEZ on these later dates with the intent to avoid payment, as there would have been no benefit for me to do so, as I would have anticipated receiving additional penalties.
5. Signage and Lack of Awareness
Although I was informed by TfL during the phone call on the 13th that ULEZ signage is clearly marked, I honestly did not notice these signs on any of the occasions I entered Heathrow Airport. Additionally, although anecdotal, upon speaking to friends and acquaintances in Henley who use Heathrow Airport frequently, it became apparent that many others were also unaware of this recent update.
6. Additional Financial Burden and Frustration:
My visits to Heathrow on the 7th and 8th of January were necessitated by an error by Virgin Airlines, which had sent my family member’s luggage to the wrong terminal. Resolving this issue required two separate trips, which already resulted in significant inconvenience and expenses, including hefty parking charges. The additional PCNs compound this situation, leaving me with a sense of undue financial burden.
7. Request for Leniency
Given the circumstances, including the fact that:
- I live across the country and was not aware of the ULEZ change impacting Heathrow Airport,
- I was away from home and unable to receive the first PCN in time to adjust my behavior,
- I immediately tried to take corrective action upon learning of my mistake,
In light of the above, I respectfully request leniency and the cancellation of the PCNs for the 7th and 8th of January 2025. These entries into the ULEZ were made in genuine ignorance of the expanded zone’s boundaries, compounded by the delayed notification of my initial violation.
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Assuming this is how you approached Terminal 5 roundabout, there is also advanced warnings on this sign
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HeEEbt93qAaLfrXh6
which I assume you passed, but both are tiny, and I see would be easily missed at night, blenmding into the blue background as against the larger directional signs for the turn-offs.
TfL are unlikely to give way, but see what others say as I am not an expert.
If you approached Terminal 3 from a different direction, again you need to identify where you crossed the boundary and the signage there.
You could also prepare a draft representation against PCNs 2&3, stressing the inadequacy of the signage, were unaware until the 1st PCN landed in your letterbox, etc, etc. and post it here for comment.
I believe TfL will re-offer the discount if/when they refuse your reps and you can then decide whether to go to Tribunal, but remember that the you are essentially p[leading for mitigation, which the Tribunal cannot consider, but it could decide the signage is inadequate.
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I've looked at few adjudications there and the signage is accepted as sufficient.
As you've paid the first I would ask politely for discretion on the others owing to be out of town and not aware until the first came, and saying you paid the first.
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Please can you post a GSV link to the point at which you entered the Zone?
A map of the zone is here https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-where-and-when
(Scroll down)
I was caught on the 7th and 8th on Welland Road (both in Terminal 5 first page of the PCNs shown)
This is where I entered Terminal 5, I may have entered Terminal 3 off the motorway at night on the 7th but I do not remember and do not remember seeing any signs for ULEZ.
GSV Link here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/BNTWmJhY9Z4hwm8S9)
I'm sorry but that tiny ULEZ sign amongst all the othera and the advertising is hardly adequate, I could take it further and say that I was unaware there was a charge (there is no such mention of this on the sign), I have not yet in my life paid a ULEZ charge and haven't lived in London for decades, but the truth is I was completely unaware Heathrow Airport is now in the ULEZ.
(https://i.imgur.com/bipMpSK.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uW2Q3j3.jpeg)
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Please can you post a GSV link to the point at which you entered the Zone?
A map of the zone is here https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-where-and-when
(Scroll down)
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Yes I phoned today and there are only the 3.
I paid the one from the 20th of December already and there are the two from January, somehow the other two went under the radar.
If I do make representation and I lose will I have to pay £180 each for the two penalties this January?
Just FYI, I spoke to several families and friends who live in Henley and regularly use Heathrow airport, none were aware that it is now in the ULEZ and were surprised, so it is not just me, but they have Tesla's and use Taxis unlike myself, personally this is a matter of principal since it feels like entrapment, not once did I realise I was driving into a ULEZ zone and I don't want others making the same mistake.
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Paying closes the case for that PCN: you cannot pay and then make reps.. Have you phoned today to check if any more now added to the sytem and outstanding?
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I am going to pay them this evening and then make a representation, unless I should do otherwise?
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Yesterday I received the next two PCN's but for the 7th and 8th of January not for any others in December.
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In view of the state of Royal Mail, you can try ringing TfL and asking what PCNs are outstanding against your reg.mark.
I phoned in this Monday 13th, to try to pay all the other outstanding entries, they told me I can't do that it's too late and that I only had the one PCN so far generated on the 01/01/2025 for driving in on 20/12/2024. The problem is I also drove in 4 times after that so I can expect those dates to come in later as well. I can call in again this week to check if required.
To be clear, you paid the first one and have now received one more?
I have only received one so far, that is the one scanned above which I have paid £90 for. To be clear I drove into Heathrow Airport on 20/12/2024, 21/12/2024, 24/12/2024. 07/01/2025 and 08/01/2025 in the same car. (The reason for so many entries is I had two family members flying in and out and Virgin also misplaced luggage so we had to drive in again the next day to pick it up).
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To be clear, you paid the first one and have now received one more?
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In view of the state of Royal Mail, you can try ringing TfL and asking what PCNs are outstanding against your reg.mark.
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I have not received the remaining PCN's so far, just the one of the 4 more I expect. Should I be writing my representation now for the one that has arrived with a view to challenge the remaining 4? We arrived home on the 12th of January and that is when I discovered the letter and realised Heathrow Airport is now in the ULEZ, too late to pay any of the charges. Many thanks.
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Well I'll have to do that then, as I was the driver so will have to act on my family members behalf.
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If a family mwmber is the registered keeper, then you will need a letter of authority for you to act on their behalf if you are going to submit representations and maybe take TfL to the London Tribunals. Registered keeper has total legal responsibility for payment or appealing PCNs, driver is irrelevant.
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I have read through the post you linked, thank you for your reply. Please find scans of the PCN in full which I paid today below.
Please note so far I have only been issued with this PCN so far, however I expect more in the post (5 in total all to Heathrow Airport, both Terminals 3 and 5). Not sure if it's relevant but I am not the registered keeper a mamber of my family is.
(https://i.imgur.com/AV9GX1X.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6nwj9Bb.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/i9xOsKe.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8X0bbkd.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0Xw0QPx.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/810oQ3V.jpeg)
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Read this and update your thread accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
Be in no doubt you are going to struggle with these PCNs, but with our help you may get Transport for London to accept payment for the first PCN, and cancel the rest. Please post up the first PCN, all sides, redacting only your name and address.
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I was unaware that Heathrow Airport as of 2023 is now in the ULEZ, I drove down from the North of England and haven't lived in London for over a decade. Upon just returning home recently I found a PCN issued on the 01/01/2025 for driving into Wayfarer Road (Heathrow Terminal 5) on 20/12/2024.
Had I noticed I was driving into the ULEZ I would have of course paid the ULEZ beforehand, but to say the signs are inadequate is an understatement, I only realised Heathrow Airport is now in the ULEZ after receiving the PCN.
I just paid the £90 penalty, but the problem is since the 20th I drove into Heathrow Airport off the M4 maybe 5 times, on the 21st, 24th of Dec, 7th and 8th of Jan. I have since tried to pay for driving into the ULEZ (Heathrow Airport) on those dates, but of course now I cannot.
So I will probably now be facing a £450 fine in total.
Is there anything I can do in this situation? It is ridiculous and the signage is not adequate and it feels like entrapment.