Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: JoCo on January 11, 2025, 02:15:15 pm
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OK. So I got the standard fob-off rejection of my informal challenge.
Worth my while continuing this and risking 50%?
The only thing which strikes me is the comment:
"[Temporary suspension signs] have been checked and we can confirm that they are correct and in line with the regulations." Which begs the question what regulations? as AFAIK suspension signs are not defined.
I have applied FOI for the TMO and the suspension request.
(https://i.imgur.com/50QCYrg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g3loMyZ.jpg)
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The Greenwich (Charged-For Parking Places) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xu2aSCOjY2c708_9igCLKv5PT47JRGkn/view)
Has the following relevant section on suspended bays, given the suspension reason was defined as "works" on the suspension notice:
(3) Any person duly authorised by the Council or the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis
may suspend the use of a parking place or any part thereof whenever he considers such suspension
reasonably necessary:
(b) for the purpose of any building operation, demolition or excavation adjacent to or in the
near vicinity of the parking place, the maintenance, improvement or reconstruction of
the highway or the cleaning of gullies in or adjacent to or in the near vicinity of the
parking place, the laying, ****, alteration or repair in or adjacent to or in the near
vicinity of the parking place of any sewer or of any main, pipe or apparatus for the
supply of gas, water or electricity or of any electronic communications network or the
placing, maintenance or removal of any traffic sign;
(5) On the suspension of the use of a parking place or any part thereof in accordance with the
provisions of this Article, the person authorising or causing such suspension shall place or cause to be
placed in or adjacent to that parking place or that part thereof, as the case may be, a traffic sign indicating
that waiting by vehicles is prohibited:
I await the actual TMO. But it seems that from the above the council have not shot themselves in the foot by requiring a compliant warning sign - which does not exist. See London Borough of Camden Case No. : 2090523567 link above - but simply a "traffic sign indicating that waiting by vehicles is prohibited".
As the same case also says:
In cases of bay suspensions I and many other adjudicators have taken the view that provided the Council can prove that the bay was lawfully authorised for suspension, and that there was a sign or signs properly sited which gave a clear indication of that fact, the motorist parking there will be in contravention.
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All published here: https://redbridge.traffweb.app/traffweb/1/TrafficOrders
You can search by street name / number, click on the restriction you want to look at and then click "view documents" and "order document". I also keep a backup copy of The Greenwich (Charged-For Parking Places) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xu2aSCOjY2c708_9igCLKv5PT47JRGkn/view) but for the map tiles, you'll have to get them from traffweb.
Thank you CP.
But did you mean Redbridge? (which is freely readable)
When I try https://greenwich.traffweb.app/traffweb/1/TrafficOrders (https://greenwich.traffweb.app/traffweb/1/TrafficOrders) I get a log on prompt. I have tried to register. This is being approved. Is this a staff page?
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Yes Andy, but as this is a general query that might be useful to others I posted here.
{ note to viewers, I originally posted this question in Flame Pit ]
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Does this relate to your suspended residents' bay thread?
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All published here: https://redbridge.traffweb.app/traffweb/1/TrafficOrders
You can search by street name / number, click on the restriction you want to look at and then click "view documents" and "order document". I also keep a backup copy of The Greenwich (Charged-For Parking Places) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xu2aSCOjY2c708_9igCLKv5PT47JRGkn/view) but for the map tiles, you'll have to get them from traffweb.
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Quick query.
How do I get a TMO for a Residents bay? Royal Borough of Greenwich.
Excuse ignorance, I have never requested one before.
Is this done by a FOI? Or an email to Council traffic dept?
I hear references on this forum about the Gazette? Is this where the TMOs are published?
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How do you know you were in contravention at 9.20, the sign doesn't say anything about extent of restriction. Was it 0001- H hour or 0900 to 0915 and was it only on 10th or what?
IMO, the sign is defective as it doesn't give hours or days.
I would have thought that if no time explicit time is given on a dated suspension sign, then the assumption should be whole 24 hours.
However I had a little delve into the internet to find out if the sign is compliant. The following may give me a get out.
The Traffic Signs, Regulations and General Directions 2016 do not define the yellow suspension sign used by most enforcement authorities to control parking.
Hence it is necessary for enforcement authorities to seek DfT authorisation for such signs, under Sections 64 and 65 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
Someone did a FOI request to DOT to establish this in 2020.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/authority_for_parking_suspension (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/authority_for_parking_suspension)
We encourage authorities to apply for an authorisation for their parking
suspension signs which permits their use at any appropriate location on their
roads. The authorisation specifies the information that can be shown on the
sign, and its size, colour and character. All authorisations for this traffic sign
which have been issued since 1 January 2011 may be viewed on the
Department’s authorisation database at:
The reply included a list of enforcement authorities who have DfT authorisation.
There is no sign of Greenwich, or indeed any authorities, seeking authorisation for suspension signs.
www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/ (http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/)
There is a case in London Tribunals which won on similar basis.
Case from 2010 (https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.londontribunals.gov.uk%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fkeycases%2FCampbell%2520v%2520Camden.doc%253B%2520Suspension%2520of%2520controls.doc%253B%2520signage.doc%253B%2520requirement%2520for%2520compliant%2520sign.doc&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK)
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Good.
Just one question:
How do you know you were in contravention at 9.20, the sign doesn't say anything about extent of restriction. Was it 0001- H hour or 0900 to 0915 and was it only on 10th or what?
IMO, the sign is defective as it doesn't give hours or days.
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Yep. Definitely registered as keeper with correct address.
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We haven't seen their response, so it's premature to worry on this score IMO. Make sure reps are submitted within the 14-day discount period and then reassess when their response is received.
Are you the registered keeper with current DVLA details?
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Assuming rejection. Any further avenues for a defence HCA? or should I just take the 50% discount and my lesson?
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Please check your records to see when suspension notices were erected. If after 30th December please cancel this PCN. As clearly I would have no idea a suspension was planned.
Isn't a defence on its own, but you can assert as you have done and just wait for their response. Just think about it, according to your logic you could substitute November or October or September or whatever for December and a motorist would still have immunity by virtue of there not being suspension notices when they parked.
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Just looked up Greenwich council's request form for suspension, in which they ask applicant for 10 days notice.
https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets/apply-park-your-property-or-restricted-place/apply-suspend-parking (https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets/apply-park-your-property-or-restricted-place/apply-suspend-parking)
I also note that other councils require notice to give neighbours 7 days notice. So I can't rely on insufficient notice.
Perhaps my challenge should have been more apologetic asking for mitigation...
Any chance of a technical challenge?
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There is no notice period - sometimes they have to suspend bays for emergency work. Obviously the longer the better and of course people do go on holiday, which is why I asked where you were.
Anyway let's see what they reply with.
From now on check the parking bay signs at least every 2 days.
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Car was parked down the road.
I don't use car much in London, generally I use public transport, unless I'm going long distance. So wouldn't check.
Is 11 days really considered a long time?
Anyone any idea of how much notice they are supposed to give?
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Yes they should have a log of cars in suspended area when sign went up. I assume your car was outside 43-45.
Where were you - leaving a car unchecked from 30 Dec to 10 Jan is not good and they may well reject.
(https://i.ibb.co/y0XXVWk/gr3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9WgwjKc/gr2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3MTgT1n/gr1.jpg)
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Happy New Year!
I parked on resident's bay 30th December.
Noticed PCN today, GR11346567, Reg: LV60 RHJ, as bay suspended on 10th January.
(https://i.imgur.com/EXCxaE3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/knMBmD9.jpg)
I didn't notice any suspension signs up when I parked. Possible, I suppose, I missed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/L3pMpEC.jpg)
Informal Challenge:
I parked legally in this residents bay as I have a resident's permit, on 30 December 2024.
I note that I have a PCN as bay was suspended on 10th January.
I don't recall seeing a suspension sign when I parked.
Please check your records to see when suspension notices were erected. If after 30th December please cancel this PCN. As clearly I would have no idea a suspension was planned.
This account can be verified by reference to the suspension log, which should record vehicles parked at time of erecting suspension signs.
If you decide not to cancel this PCN
A) please reply with the date the suspension notices were erected.
B) confirm whether a suspension log was kept, and whether my vehicle was marked as parked at the time.
I do have a google timeline to confirm I parked on that date. I drove to Charlton and back.
I didn't include it on my informal challenge, as Google notated return drive as a bus journey! So I didn't want to give them any excuse to auto-reject.
Anything else I need to do?
Get TMO? Suspension Log?
Or should I wait for the response?
Regards.