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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: HS12 on August 30, 2023, 09:32:03 pm

Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: Gary95 on August 14, 2024, 09:31:29 pm
Hello all,

I heard that this case (https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf)  has been overturned.... does anyone have the latest case which overturned it and is the new precedent??? Thanks  :)

Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on March 25, 2024, 10:10:01 pm
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 08, 2024, 02:42:11 pm
The saga continues.
It does indeed, there is outstanding litigation before the First-tier Tribunal to force TFL to provide further evidence. If I end up making and out of time review application I will point out to the tribunal that that was an outcome I forewarned them about.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on March 08, 2024, 02:42:11 pm
The saga continues.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on March 08, 2024, 01:41:55 pm
Review outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JE6wZV0k167EKLeWYyGCHTY5AvPskgGe/view).
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: H C Andersen on January 12, 2024, 11:29:57 am

@cp, would you know on what point of law have they requested a review and were review requests made for any of the other cited cases?

I can't see that the JR decision (which is the only related and recent decision that I can find) affects this case because it doesn't deal with the 'how' but rather the 'whether permitted' issue.

I still can't get my head around the apparent generic use of the term 'parking place' (even in the JR) when used in the context of a RR. A parking place other than on a RR is a length of highway set aside by legislative instrument for parking, a TMO/TRO. It is not an exception to its immediately adjoining environment, it's separate. Whereas a so-called 'parking place' on a RR is a length of highway situated in a red route where by exception to the prevailing stopping prohibition 'parking' and related activities may be undertaken.

Whether the difference is substantive or semantic perhaps the Flame Pit could assist which is where this is being copied.

Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on January 11, 2024, 11:24:23 am
Update:
TFL have submitted a request to review the decision to the Environment & Traffic Adjudicator at London Tribunals.

Hearing listed for 31/01/24
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on December 07, 2023, 03:40:31 pm
Appeal successful, all thanks to cp8759!
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on December 07, 2023, 12:34:59 am
I did get involved in the end, outcome here (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1VCs9vBNdc9gqPij482BEtBd36BVMQdwi).
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on November 13, 2023, 10:38:09 pm
Quote from: HS12 on November 09, 2023, 10:00:11 pm
Hearing listed for Dec 6th
I see you've decided to go it alone, so I can only wish you good luck!
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: Colin_S on November 10, 2023, 07:37:31 am
My hearing was listed for 22nd November and I received an email confirming my appeal was allowed from London Tribunals yesterday, 9th November.
Hopefully a similar outcome for yours.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on November 09, 2023, 10:00:11 pm
Glad to hear! Hearing listed for Dec 6th
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: Colin_S on November 09, 2023, 07:43:56 am
Any update on this one? I took mine all the way to London Tribunals and TFL chose not to contest it so my appeal was allowed.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 01:19:51 pm
Quote from: HS12 on October 26, 2023, 07:29:13 am
If you would be happy to? I'm just a bit tentative about ending up having to pay £160 instead of £80 but it seems there's a good chance of success? I'll send off my appeal this evening under "procedural impropriety"?
I hope you haven't sent anything off? Please confirm.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: Incandescent on October 27, 2023, 12:40:44 am
Apparently judgment has been "reserved", (whatever that means !), but in practice it seems to mean the learned judge has to go away and read all the laws and regulations around this case to get up-to-speed on the issue between the parties. So a quick decision is not expected.

FWIW, I hope,  fervently, that TfL lose. What difference is there between a parking bay on a Red Route and one that isn't ? There is no difference at all ! Both allow a vehicle to park in the parking bay for a time defined on the parking bay sign, and if you overstay, or don't pay, you expect a CEO to come along and wallop you with a PCN served to the car or yourself.  The really key issue for TfL is that the "profit" from PCNs using CCTV is hugely greater than if CEOs have to be employed. This is surely not the intent of the revised regulations.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: iispartan on October 27, 2023, 12:10:32 am
What was the outcome of the TFL court case? I believe it was meant to be today (26 Oct)
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: John U.K. on October 26, 2023, 08:21:08 am
Quote
I'll send off my appeal this evening under "procedural impropriety"?

AFAIK when CP represents, he handles registering the appeal. Send him a PM and hold off registering until he's answered. (I think he may be busy with the High Court hearing today :)  )
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on October 26, 2023, 07:29:13 am
If you would be happy to? I'm just a bit tentative about ending up having to pay £160 instead of £80 but it seems there's a good chance of success? I'll send off my appeal this evening under "procedural impropriety"?
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on October 21, 2023, 05:13:11 pm
Forget about any previous PCNs, if you paid and you're past the 28 days to appeal given in the previous notice of rejection, then that money is gone for good.

There is a possibility we might get all PCNs for the 2022/23 financial year refunded, but that is wholly outside of your control and we will post an announcement on the site if this works out (and to be honest it's likely to end up in the evening news if it works out).

There is also a question around camera certification.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on October 20, 2023, 06:15:29 pm
Response 7 weeks later, relevant parts:
"The decision you refer to has been disputed by TfL and is now the subject of a Judicial Review hearing following an application by TfL to challenge the adjudicators decision. This is because we consider the adjudicators were wrong and the decision was unlawful. It specifically relates to an interpretation of Regulation 11 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 and we are satisfied the correct interpretation of Regulation 11 and The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD) does provide traffic authorities the power to serve a PCN on the basis of evidence from a prescribed device for
contraventions detected in red route bays as well as contraventions detected when stopped on single or double red lines. The road is correctly marked in accordance with the TSRGD with the relevant upright sign conveying the relevant restriction in the traffic order for that location."

The signs being parallel to the road & therefore not legible without stopping seems like a no-go, as they said:
"The Traffic Signs Manual (TSM) recommends that a red route sign should face the direction of oncoming traffic so that drivers can read the sign without stopping, however it must be clarified that the TSM has the status of guidance only. TfL is satisfied that the signs in place at the above location give motorists adequate information regarding the restrictions in place."

I also added a previously fully paid red route PCN to the appeal on the same basis. My options now are pay or go to the environment & traffic adjudicators & appeal, I suppose on the basis that "There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority". Questions:
1. Is it worth appealing or just paying up at this point? They say I can still pay £80 within 14 days before it goes up to £160
2. If I appeal & lose, will I have to pay £160 instead of £80?
3. Will the adjudicator look at both appeals including the previously paid PCN & will TFL refund me the previous PCN if I win?

Thank you!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on September 04, 2023, 11:25:45 pm
Yes what you've drafted is fine.

You'll find Colin's thread here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/re-tfl-red-route-parking-bay-postal-pcn/), we have a one case one thread rule otherwise it becomes impossible to work out what's what.

Anish Raj Shrestha v Transport for London was a double red line case, so it's not really comparable to your case and I wouldn't bother referencing it. However as a backup I have requested the make and model of the camera.
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on August 31, 2023, 08:58:06 pm
Is something along the lines of this any good:

"Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the basis of a procedural impropriety, specifically it is unlawful for you to serve a postal PCN in these circumstances. I refer you to the red route panel decision in Commercial Plant Services Ltd & others v Transport for London (2230060716, 25 May 2023) published at www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,"

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1dFUa8HEcUh2HyuDprMyvoP1NZ67kMZWA - I note in this case the appeal was upheld on the basis that "It is only when the device is certified by the Secretary of State that it can be
used for the civil enforcement of road traffic contraventions." Would this be worth mentioning in my appeal to TFL (with the risk that in this case perhaps it is an approved device)?

And Colin did your appeal succeed?

Thanks all for your advice!
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: cp8759 on August 31, 2023, 12:27:18 am
Quote from: HS12 on August 30, 2023, 09:32:03 pm
I do wonder - if this goes to an independent adjudicator, would it depend on their thoughts about my parking intentions?
Your intentions are irrelevant, the tribunal applies the law to the facts and that's that.

You should make representations on the basis of the panel case, but also keep an eye on this thread: https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tfl-judicial-review-326/

Also send an email to generaloffice@administrativecourtoffice.justice.gov.uk and CC Rule6CPRService@tfl.gov.uk

Subject: The King on the application of Transport for London v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) - CO/2884/2023

Dear Administrative Court Office,

I am aware that Transport for London is seeking to challenge the decision by a panel of London Tribunals adjudicators in the case of Commercial Plant Services Ltd and others v Transport for London (2230060716, 25 May 2023). I am in receipt of an impacted penalty charge notice issued by Transport for London, which Transport for London seeks to enforce against me, I therefore consider that I have a direct interest in the outcome of the judicial review.

I am not in a position to make a formal application on form N244 as the irrecoverable costs would be prohibitive.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: John U.K. on August 30, 2023, 09:39:17 pm
You copied the shortened links across from your PPP post, rather than using 'copy link' for each individual.
Here's the TfL myths one
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/myths-and-complaints-about-red-route-enforcement.pdf

and here the panel decision

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf
Title: TFL red route parking bay postal PCN
Post by: HS12 on August 30, 2023, 09:32:03 pm
Contravention:
TFL red route parking bay PCN in the post.
I was parked in a red route parking bay) at 09:55 with the OK to park time being 10:00-16:00, & got caught by "camera operator number 172 who was observing real time pictures from an approved device at the time stated and has been recorded on digital storage media".

Location: 1424-1428 London Road SW16
Google Maps link:
https://goo.gl/maps/VU1GF8vFQv4HERQA6

TFL PCN letter:

(https://i.imgur.com/DS9TTqm.jpeg)

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf
I know from 2230060716 commercial plant services vs TFL (link above) there has been a precedent of red route PCNs from CCTV delivered by post being deemed illegal/unfair.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/myths-and-complaints-about-red-route-enforcement.pdf
I note on this link above TFL state "The Government has restricted authorities’ use of CCTV for issuing PCNs for parking enforcement by post. However, in recognition of their strategic importance, the new rules do not apply to enforcement of critical routes such as red routes where traffic must be kept moving for safety reasons; therefore TfL’s use of CCTV to enforce red route parking contraventions remains lawful."

I do wonder - if this goes to an independent adjudicator, would it depend on their thoughts about my parking intentions? It's probably obvious I thought I could get away with it 5 minutes prior to the permitted time if I kept an eye out for a warden, but of course I wasn't aware of the camera because there were no signs for it. Is it worth appealing or are they likely to come back with the threatening £240 fine instead of the £80 if I don't pay up like a good sheep?